Pflu and ODay FIRED from UM this morning

[Mvemjsunpx]

New interview quotes from Pflugrad here…

http://missoulian.com/news/local/univer ... 963f4.html

[SDHornet]

Mvemjsunpx ,

He holds responsibility because as a coach and mentor he should be (and I assume he was) making it aware to his players to avoid these kind of circumstances. And he also should have made aware to his players the consequences of getting caught up in such bull shit (he probably did). Pflu and other UM admin enabled this behavior because they never nipped it in the bud to begin with. They put performance on the field above altercations and consequences of off the field issues. When players see someone who broke the rules get a slap on the wrist, why would they think something different would happen to them? You are right that ultimately the players themselves are responsible for their actions, but the admin and coaching staff could (and maybe they do) do what they can to steer players away from this nonsense via awareness classes, mentoring, etc. I know it sounds silly having a room full of players in a room listening to a person speak about the pitfalls of alcohol abuse and other detrimental decisions/actions but that is just an example of what could be done to increase awareness about poor behavior/decisions (and maybe they do have stuff like this). Regardless, if it still happens under his watch he is still going to catch the blame and fallout from it. Accountability starts at the top.

I don’t know the ins and out of what is going on at UM, and quite frankly I don’t care. What I do know is that a handful of knuckleheads have very poorly represented UM in a light that reflects very poorly on that program and university. Unfortunately this is probably just the beginning, heaven help you if the NCAA comes in and cleans house. Me thinks UM won’t get the slap on the wrist that a BCS level program will get for having this type of shit happen at their program. Best of luck to UM for whatever this disaster leads them. Hopefully UM and its supporters can pull through and get through this in decent shape.

[AZGrizFan]

Couldn't disagree more.

Sure, nobody's been actually "convicted" yet, but that shit takes YEARS. Donaldson, Atkins, Johnson, Duncan, Tazer-gate, etc., etc. This team has been in a moral free-fall since Pflu took over. As I said on egriz, he either couldn't or wouldn't establish discipline to the level that would cause these fellas to think twice about their actions. That ALONE is a failure in leadership that would necessitate a new coach, IMHO. And I'm guessing O'Day refused to fire him, so HE got fired too...

Wait, you honestly think a player's choice to RAPE somebody—something that gets you 10+ years in prison—is based on the coach's decision to possibly suspend you? Pflugrad is a football coach, not their parents. Their moral code should have been established long before they got to UM and it isn't the coach's job to babysit them. The players are adults & are responsible for their own actions.

BTW, the actual act of date/acquaintance rape itself is usually conducted under the influence of alcohol or drugs by one or both parties. I do not equate these players with serial rapists who are breaking into strangers bedrooms and assaulting them at gunpoint. The issue is getting the players to understand to not put yourself in that situation in the first place. And then (here's where Pflu screwed up) dropping the fucking HAMMER on the first one that does. Plu showed weakness and the pack mentality preys on weakness. He put the success of the team ON THE FIELD ahead of doing the right thing off the field....and the bad apples knew it. THey knew they were not going to get slammed, so what's to stop them?

[bluehenbillk]

8 UM football players not only dismissed from team but also kicked out of school?

I know Johnson, how many of the other 7 were starters?

[SACCAT]

Wait, you honestly think a player's choice to RAPE somebody—something that gets you 10+ years in prison—is based on the coach's decision to possibly suspend you? Pflugrad is a football coach, not their parents. Their moral code should have been established long before they got to UM and it isn't the coach's job to babysit them. The players are adults & are responsible for their own actions.

BTW, the actual act of date/acquaintance rape itself is usually conducted under the influence of alcohol or drugs by one or both parties. I do not equate these players with serial rapists who are breaking into strangers bedrooms and assaulting them at gunpoint. The issue is getting the players to understand to not put yourself in that situation in the first place. And then (here's where Pflu screwed up) dropping the **** HAMMER on the first one that does. Plu showed weakness and the pack mentality preys on weakness. He put the success of the team ON THE FIELD ahead of doing the right thing off the field....and the bad apples knew it. THey knew they were not going to get slammed, so what's to stop them?

What he said.

[AZGrizFan]

8 UM football players not only dismissed from team but also kicked out of school?

I know Johnson, how many of the other 7 were starters?

That's all just rumor at this point, Bill.

[GrizFanStuckInUtah]

8 UM football players not only dismissed from team but also kicked out of school?

I know Johnson, how many of the other 7 were starters?

That's all just rumor at this point, Bill.

Nothing official yet and at this point. They may as well do something like this though. If you are cleaning house, why do just one room.

[Mvemjsunpx]

Mvemjsunpx ,

He holds responsibility because as a coach and mentor he should be (and I assume he was) making it aware to his players to avoid these kind of circumstances. And he also should have made aware to his players the consequences of getting caught up in such bull shit (he probably did). Pflu and other UM admin enabled this behavior because they never nipped it in the bud to begin with. They put performance on the field above altercations and consequences of off the field issues. When players see someone who broke the rules get a slap on the wrist, why would they think something different would happen to them? You are right that ultimately the players themselves are responsible for their actions, but the admin and coaching staff could (and maybe they do) do what they can to steer players away from this nonsense via awareness classes, mentoring, etc. I know it sounds silly having a room full of players in a room listening to a person speak about the pitfalls of alcohol abuse and other detrimental decisions/actions but that is just an example of what could be done to increase awareness about poor behavior/decisions (and maybe they do have stuff like this). Regardless, if it still happens under his watch he is still going to catch the blame and fallout from it. Accountability starts at the top.

I'm pretty sure UM already has these awareness classes/seminars, though I'm not 100% certain. And I'm also pretty sure there were reminders, student handbook explanations, etc., like there all for all sports & extracurricular groups at the beginning of seasons.

As for the "putting the performance on the field ahead of what's going on off the field," I don't really see any evidence of that. Now it could be that Pflugrad & O'Day were just too nice & gave players the benefit of the doubt because they like 'em (I have no idea if that's true or not), but—based on what I've seen of those two—I very much doubt they callously said "I don't care what they did, I wanna win." There are certainly coaches that would do that, but I don't think Pflugrad is one of them.

Also keep in mind that—aside from the Donaldson case (he was arrested & kicked off the team immediately)—no sexual assault charges have been filed against anyone else & there appears to be nothing beyond the whole "he said, she said" thing (that could change in the near future, of course). You could "drop the hammer" (as AZ puts it) on those that are accused, but that gives false accusers enormous power to destroy someone's life or career.


Again, there's probably a lot that we don't know about this situation. Based on what we do know, it looks like Engstrom fired them just to make it look like he was doing something when who knows if he actually did anything effective—i.e., PR is more important than actually preventing sexual assault. If Pflugrad & O'Day actually did anything specific that warranted their firing (like obstruction of justice), we likely won't know until a lawsuit is resolved or someone is arrested for something (UM made it clear today they aren't talking).

Oh, & here's the team's response: http://www.gogriz.com/sports/m-footbl/s ... 12aaa.html

[Mvemjsunpx]

Oh, & the notion that Pflugrad hasn't done anything to curtail negative aspects of the Griz football culture is just false.

http://www.montanakaimin.com/news/footb ... 3ZdEo4iWeJ

[BDKJMU]

This thing got a lot of national attention. Articles today in the USA Today & the Wall Street Journal:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/ ... 53869144/1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 49858.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[D1B]

Mvemjsunpx ,

He holds responsibility because as a coach and mentor he should be (and I assume he was) making it aware to his players to avoid these kind of circumstances. And he also should have made aware to his players the consequences of getting caught up in such bull shit (he probably did). Pflu and other UM admin enabled this behavior because they never nipped it in the bud to begin with. They put performance on the field above altercations and consequences of off the field issues. When players see someone who broke the rules get a slap on the wrist, why would they think something different would happen to them? You are right that ultimately the players themselves are responsible for their actions, but the admin and coaching staff could (and maybe they do) do what they can to steer players away from this nonsense via awareness classes, mentoring, etc. I know it sounds silly having a room full of players in a room listening to a person speak about the pitfalls of alcohol abuse and other detrimental decisions/actions but that is just an example of what could be done to increase awareness about poor behavior/decisions (and maybe they do have stuff like this). Regardless, if it still happens under his watch he is still going to catch the blame and fallout from it. Accountability starts at the top.

I don’t know the ins and out of what is going on at UM, and quite frankly I don’t care. What I do know is that a handful of knuckleheads have very poorly represented UM in a light that reflects very poorly on that program and university. Unfortunately this is probably just the beginning, heaven help you if the NCAA comes in and cleans house. Me thinks UM won’t get the slap on the wrist that a BCS level program will get for having this type of shit happen at their program. Best of luck to UM for whatever this disaster leads them. Hopefully UM and its supporters can pull through and get through this in decent shape.

Yep, like W should be held accountable for plunging us into endless war and ruing the world economy.

Be consistent, asshole.

[houndawg]

I dunno man. I couldn't care either way, but as an outsider it's hard to look at the Donaldson thing as an isolated incident when there have been soooooo many Griz players have run-ins with the law the past few years. Yeah, stuff happens on every campus and football players are adults that are accountable for their own actions, but at some point there has to be some sort of accountability with the coaching staff. It sucks to see people lose their jobs, but honestly, this move might be the best thing. Yeah, the Griz might be down a little next year, but long-term if you can get the right people in there to clean things up and win at the same time, the program/school will be that much better for it. I think it was probably the right move.

Did you actually read the Donaldson story? He (allegedly) just decided to bang a long-time (non-romantic) friend while she was sleeping on his couch. That's a bit more unusual than the more typical date rape/frat party-type scenario that has come up in the other allegations. The Donaldson case is just kinda creepy.

http://missoulian.com/news/local/griz-r ... 963f4.html

Buddy of mine is from Montana and doesn't understand this at all, says the only thing he can think of is that Donaldson is an out-of-state recruit and hasn't yet been shown where the sheep pen is.

[Vidav]

Did you actually read the Donaldson story? He (allegedly) just decided to bang a long-time (non-romantic) friend while she was sleeping on his couch. That's a bit more unusual than the more typical date rape/frat party-type scenario that has come up in the other allegations. The Donaldson case is just kinda creepy.

http://missoulian.com/news/local/griz-r ... 963f4.html

Buddy of mine is from Montana and doesn't understand this at all, says the only thing he can think of is that Donaldson is an out-of-state recruit and hasn't yet been shown where the sheep pen is.

We don't pen the sheep. It's more fun when you have to catch 'em.

[Cujo]

Buddy of mine is from Montana and doesn't understand this at all, says the only thing he can think of is that Donaldson is an out-of-state recruit and hasn't yet been shown where the sheep pen is.

Considering Donaldson is from Missoula, he already knows the sheep pen is in Idaho.

[GrizFanStuckInUtah]

Buddy of mine is from Montana and doesn't understand this at all, says the only thing he can think of is that Donaldson is an out-of-state recruit and hasn't yet been shown where the sheep pen is.

Considering Donaldson is from Missoula, he already knows the sheep pen is in Idaho.

Poke-a-fellow Im-a-homo to be exact.

Spoiler: show

Pocatello Idaho

[SDHornet]

Yep, like W should be held accountable for plunging us into endless war and ruing the world economy.

Be consistent, asshole.

Wrong board dipshit.