He appointed Browner, Jackson, Salazar, Chu, Sutley and Locke!!!!
He might as well have placed NRDC and CBD's attorneys in charge of our nation's environmental and regulatory agencies.
Under Obama, the envirowhackos have had free-reign to destroy American industry.
Want to know what's causing our nation's economic problems?
Re-read the above.
You are one exaggeration' motherfvcker, T. I see no impact from the tree huggers then I did 20 years ago. You're a sensationalist, like most Conks, buddy.
It's coming on the utility sector. The shit won't hit the fan until 2015 because that is the compliance deadline for the new regs. You'll start to see it in your utility bills by then too, if not sooner. Plus when Obama is re-elected (and he will be ) it is really going to hit the fan - CO2 regulation will come. They can't get it through Congress so EPA will do it.
Mark my words - there will be a blackout sometime, somewhere in 2015.
If fascism ever comes to America, it will come in the name of liberalism. Ronald Reagan, 1975.
Cap'n Cat wrote:
You are one exaggeration' motherfvcker, T. I see no impact from the tree huggers then I did 20 years ago. You're a sensationalist, like most Conks, buddy.
It's coming on the utility sector. The shit won't hit the fan until 2015 because that is the compliance deadline for the new regs. You'll start to see it in your utility bills by then too, if not sooner. Plus when Obama is re-elected (and he will be ) it is really going to hit the fan - CO2 regulation will come. They can't get it through Congress so EPA will do it.
Mark my words - there will be a blackout sometime, somewhere in 2015.
Great Smog
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Great Smog of '52 or Big Smoke[1] was a severe air pollution event that affected London during December 1952. A period of cold weather, combined with an anticyclone and windless conditions, collected airborne pollutants mostly from the use of coal to form a thick layer of smog over the city. It lasted from Friday 5 to Tuesday 9 December 1952, and then dispersed quickly after a change of weather.
Although it caused major disruption due to the effect on visibility, and even penetrated indoor areas, it was not thought to be a significant event at the time, with London having experienced many smog events in the past, so called "pea soupers". However, medical reports in the following weeks estimated that 4,000 people had died prematurely and 100,000 more were made ill because of the smog's effects on the human respiratory tract. More recent research suggests that the number of fatalities was considerably greater at about 12,000.[2]
It is considered the worst air pollution event in the history of the United Kingdom,[3] and the most significant in terms of its effect on environmental research, government regulation, and public awareness of the relationship between air quality and health.[2] It led to several changes in practices and regulations, including the Clean Air Act 1956.
Cap'n Cat wrote:
You are one exaggeration' motherfvcker, T. I see no impact from the tree huggers then I did 20 years ago. You're a sensationalist, like most Conks, buddy.
It's coming on the utility sector. The shit won't hit the fan until 2015 because that is the compliance deadline for the new regs. You'll start to see it in your utility bills by then too, if not sooner. Plus when Obama is re-elected (and he will be ) it is really going to hit the fan - CO2 regulation will come. They can't get it through Congress so EPA will do it.
Mark my words - there will be a blackout sometime, somewhere in 2015.
If it's in the name of a cleaner planet, Fiver, we gotta do it.
HI54UNI wrote:
It's coming on the utility sector. The shit won't hit the fan until 2015 because that is the compliance deadline for the new regs. You'll start to see it in your utility bills by then too, if not sooner. Plus when Obama is re-elected (and he will be ) it is really going to hit the fan - CO2 regulation will come. They can't get it through Congress so EPA will do it.
Mark my words - there will be a blackout sometime, somewhere in 2015.
If it's in the name of a cleaner planet, Fiver, we gotta do it.
Not saying we shouldn't Cappy. But EPA's methods here are too much too fast without worrying about the reliability of the electric grid. Reliability is a huge issue. Everybody takes it for granted that the lights will come on when you flip the switch. For example they came out with a new rule in July 2011. The new rule was to go into effect January 1, 2012 until the courts put a stay on it while they review it. If the rule stands compliance for most power plants will take at least 4 years to do design, get permits, do construction, etc. A utility can purchase pollution allowances from EPA until the retrofits are complete but it is very expensive. Many companies are saying screw it and just choosing to close plants. EPA estimated 4,900 MW of generation would be retired because of this rule. One company alone has said they are going to retire 3,200 MW so it is going to be much higher. Some "experts" are predicting it could be 14,000 MW. One MW will power about 500 homes. States like Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Indiana are just going to get hammered under this rule. All of these plant retirements impact reliability because they are no longer available and when you combine this with the plants that will be offline in 2015 for their retrofits, combined with other EPA rules coming out it will result in a perfect storm and we will see a blackout somewhere.
Last edited by HI54UNI on Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
If fascism ever comes to America, it will come in the name of liberalism. Ronald Reagan, 1975.
HI54UNI wrote:
It's coming on the utility sector. The shit won't hit the fan until 2015 because that is the compliance deadline for the new regs. You'll start to see it in your utility bills by then too, if not sooner. Plus when Obama is re-elected (and he will be ) it is really going to hit the fan - CO2 regulation will come. They can't get it through Congress so EPA will do it.
Mark my words - there will be a blackout sometime, somewhere in 2015.
Great Smog
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Great Smog of '52 or Big Smoke[1] was a severe air pollution event that affected London during December 1952. A period of cold weather, combined with an anticyclone and windless conditions, collected airborne pollutants mostly from the use of coal to form a thick layer of smog over the city. It lasted from Friday 5 to Tuesday 9 December 1952, and then dispersed quickly after a change of weather.
Although it caused major disruption due to the effect on visibility, and even penetrated indoor areas, it was not thought to be a significant event at the time, with London having experienced many smog events in the past, so called "pea soupers". However, medical reports in the following weeks estimated that 4,000 people had died prematurely and 100,000 more were made ill because of the smog's effects on the human respiratory tract. More recent research suggests that the number of fatalities was considerably greater at about 12,000.[2]
It is considered the worst air pollution event in the history of the United Kingdom,[3] and the most significant in terms of its effect on environmental research, government regulation, and public awareness of the relationship between air quality and health.[2] It led to several changes in practices and regulations, including the Clean Air Act 1956.
This was 1952. The majority of the problem was using poor quality coal for home heating. Utility plants would play a role today but not very much compared to autos in the big cities.
If fascism ever comes to America, it will come in the name of liberalism. Ronald Reagan, 1975.
If it's in the name of a cleaner planet, Fiver, we gotta do it.
Not saying we shouldn't Cappy. But EPA's methods here are too much too fast without worrying about the reliability of the electric grid. Reliability is a huge issue. Everybody takes it for granted that the lights will come on when you flip the switch. For example they came out with a new rule in July 2011. The new rule was to go into effect January 1, 2012 until the courts put a stay on it while they review it. If the rule stands compliance for most power plants will take at least 4 years to do design, get permits, do construction, etc. A utility can purchase pollution allowances from EPA until the retrofits are complete but it is very expensive. Many companies are saying screw it and just choosing to close plants. EPA estimated 4,900 MW of generation would be retired because of this rule. One company alone has said they are going to retire 3,200 MW so it is going to be much higher. Some "experts" are predicting it could be 14,000 MW. One MW will power about 500 homes. States like Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Indiana are just going to get hammered under this rule. All of these plant retirements impact reliability because they are no longer available and when you combine this with the plants that will be offline in 2015 for their retrofits, combined with other EPA rules coming out it will result in a perfect storm and we will see a blackout somewhere.
Hey, Fiver. Very good points. I just think it's worth it. We gotta get away from fossil fuels. I'm for nukes and 'lectric cars, is that cool?
HI54UNI wrote:
Not saying we shouldn't Cappy. But EPA's methods here are too much too fast without worrying about the reliability of the electric grid. Reliability is a huge issue. Everybody takes it for granted that the lights will come on when you flip the switch. For example they came out with a new rule in July 2011. The new rule was to go into effect January 1, 2012 until the courts put a stay on it while they review it. If the rule stands compliance for most power plants will take at least 4 years to do design, get permits, do construction, etc. A utility can purchase pollution allowances from EPA until the retrofits are complete but it is very expensive. Many companies are saying screw it and just choosing to close plants. EPA estimated 4,900 MW of generation would be retired because of this rule. One company alone has said they are going to retire 3,200 MW so it is going to be much higher. Some "experts" are predicting it could be 14,000 MW. One MW will power about 500 homes. States like Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Indiana are just going to get hammered under this rule. All of these plant retirements impact reliability because they are no longer available and when you combine this with the plants that will be offline in 2015 for their retrofits, combined with other EPA rules coming out it will result in a perfect storm and we will see a blackout somewhere.
Hey, Fiver. Very good points. I just think it's worth it. We gotta get away from fossil fuels. I'm for nukes and 'lectric cars, is that cool?
I have mixed feelings about nukes but overall I would say yes. Electric cars are also a mixed bag. Both are a plus because it means we quit sending money to ragheads that use our money to try and kill us. Bad thing is if enough people adopt plug in electrics it actually may make our reliability problem worse.
Unless you are worried about global warming and CO2 emissions coal can be part of the mix and probably needs to be until we can get some nukes built. My employer is part owner of a coal fired power plant that came online in 2007. It meets these new EPA regulations without any modifications. This plant will be a bridge to the next generation nukes. We need to build a few more plants like this. 4 years ago we were partnering with 3 other utilities to build another new plant that would have come online in 2013-14. The largest partner, that would have owned about 60%, would have retired 4 smaller plants with basically no pollution controls if it had been built. Groups like the Sierra Club were at every public hearing speaking against the plant. They didn't care that this one new, highly efficient plant with pollution controls would produce many times less pollution than the existing plants and actually produce more energy. Their solution was to close the old plants and just build windmills and promote energy efficiency. Both good ideas in theory but not practical in the real world. What is frustrating is that too many people can't see the forest for the trees. Electricity is one of the things that made this country what it is and we can't shoot ourselves in the foot.
Last edited by HI54UNI on Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If fascism ever comes to America, it will come in the name of liberalism. Ronald Reagan, 1975.
Funny story about the Sierra Club. We are at a public hearing. The Sierra Club guy starts freaking out because the battery on his laptop died. He was scrambling around the room trying to find an outlet. A guy with an IBEW union jacket on asked him if he had a filter so only green electrons got through to charge his laptop and not those dirty black electrons from coal.
If fascism ever comes to America, it will come in the name of liberalism. Ronald Reagan, 1975.
Funny story about the Sierra Club. We are at a public hearing. The Sierra Club guy starts freaking out because the battery on his laptop died. He was scrambling around the room trying to find an outlet. A guy with an IBEW union jacket on asked him if he had a filter so only green electrons got through to charge his laptop and not those dirty black electrons from coal.
HI54UNI wrote:
Not saying we shouldn't Cappy. But EPA's methods here are too much too fast without worrying about the reliability of the electric grid. Reliability is a huge issue. Everybody takes it for granted that the lights will come on when you flip the switch. For example they came out with a new rule in July 2011. The new rule was to go into effect January 1, 2012 until the courts put a stay on it while they review it. If the rule stands compliance for most power plants will take at least 4 years to do design, get permits, do construction, etc. A utility can purchase pollution allowances from EPA until the retrofits are complete but it is very expensive. Many companies are saying screw it and just choosing to close plants. EPA estimated 4,900 MW of generation would be retired because of this rule. One company alone has said they are going to retire 3,200 MW so it is going to be much higher. Some "experts" are predicting it could be 14,000 MW. One MW will power about 500 homes. States like Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Indiana are just going to get hammered under this rule. All of these plant retirements impact reliability because they are no longer available and when you combine this with the plants that will be offline in 2015 for their retrofits, combined with other EPA rules coming out it will result in a perfect storm and we will see a blackout somewhere.
Hey, Fiver. Very good points. I just think it's worth it. We gotta get away from fossil fuels. I'm for nukes and 'lectric cars, is that cool?
Now there's something we agree on, C.
But I'll go you one further...
If we truly go nuclear, then we can also afford hydrogen powered cars (which are also electric, but generate their own electricity rather than using very enviromentally unfriendly batteries).
"You however, are an insufferable ankle biting mental chihuahua..." - Clizzoris
This was 1952. The majority of the problem was using poor quality coal for home heating. Utility plants would play a role today but not very much compared to autos in the big cities.
Just as you suggest that people take turning on the light switch for granted, they might also take clean air for granted. Regulations more than likely contributed to the fact we haven't seen occurrences on the level of the Great Smog in 60 years. You're making some really good points in this thread, I was just trying to provide some balance.
) it is really going to hit the fan - CO2 regulation will come. They can't get it through Congress so EPA will do it. 
