Keeping teacher pay low is a biblical principle.

[CID1990]

1) Teachers are some of the most highly skilled and professional people I know.

2) Why on earth would they reject something that benefits them? Should businesses reject trade associations and the chamber of commerce?

Seriously, you need to get out more.

I agree. I'm not saying that there aren't professional teachers out there, but at the end of the day, teaching can be viewed as either a calling or a job, just like policing or other public services. Ultimately the types of people doing these jobs run the gamut, but I would not list any public service jobs as having an inordinately large percentage of people I would consider "professional".

[BDKJMU]

Seriously, you need to get out more.

Thanks, but I'm blessed to know a great variety of professional people some of which impress, some of which don't. Reading this thread, it's interesting to see some of the greatest C.S.Com political minds either married to or having family affiliations with teachers - many of them conks too. You, my friend, need to step down from your high horse once in awhile.

Can throw me in there- older brother is a public school teacher in CT. Taught private for 4 yrs in VA, 3 in CT, then last 8 yrs public in CT.

[BDKJMU]

What does this tell you? Public school per pupil spending, 08'-09' dollars:
1961-1962: $2,808
2007-2008: $10,441
http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nearly a 400% increase in inflation adjusted dollars, yet if anything, our education results seem to have gotten worse.

[kalm]

Seriously, you need to get out more.

I agree. I'm not saying that there aren't professional teachers out there, but at the end of the day, teaching can be viewed as either a calling or a job, just like policing or other public services. Ultimately the types of people doing these jobs run the gamut, but I would not list any public service jobs as having an inordinately large percentage of people I would consider "professional".

Well I did say they were professionals that I know. But I agree with you here, and to Z's point it probably depends quite a bit on your circumstances. We have a terrific school district in Cheney and my kids are both still in grade school. My opinions might change a bit as they enter middle and high school.

[D1B]

I agree. I'm not saying that there aren't professional teachers out there, but at the end of the day, teaching can be viewed as either a calling or a job, just like policing or other public services. Ultimately the types of people doing these jobs run the gamut, but I would not list any public service jobs as having an inordinately large percentage of people I would consider "professional".

Well I did say they were professionals that I know. But I agree with you here, and to Z's point it probably depends quite a bit on your circumstances. We have a terrific school district in Cheney and my kids are both still in grade school. My opinions might change a bit as they enter middle and high school.

Don't be a pussy. If you don't make over six figures a year, Z and STD1990 don't give a flying fuck about you, no matter the profession, even thought they don't even make that much - they just idolize (John Galt) those who do.

I'm somewhat in the middle on this one but leaning toward your opinions more and more. I interact with many teachers now as we're putting together a plan to open a group foster home for homeless teens. My Rotary Club also does numerous projects with the schools.

More often than not teachers exhibit a higher amount of "concern" for their students, - more than say a banker shows for his customers or an ex-cop who couldn't handle the job and was in it only for the money now shows for his strip mall shoppers. Teachers often go above and beyond as you described.

[Cap'n Cat]

Blacks have no business teaching to white children.

[JohnStOnge]

1) Teachers are some of the most highly skilled and professional people I know.

2) Why on earth would they reject something that benefits them? Should businesses reject trade associations and the chamber of commerce?

In my opinion teachers' unions obviously do not make the best outcome for children being educated their top priority. One example I think of here in Louisiana is the way they responded to the Taylor Opportunity Program for Students (TOPS) program. TOPS is one of those programs whereby the State pays the tuition of a student who achieves some minimum GPA while taking certain required courses in high school.

Teachers' unions fought hard to keep both private school students and home school students from receiving TOPS scholarships. To me, when you do something like that, you're not interested in the well being of children. You're interested in protecting turf.

Another thing is that teachers unions are poltically active in all sorts of areas that have nothing to do with teaching or the interests of their members. They are "liberal" political activist groups and I consider them harmful. In my opinion they are contributing to the degradation of the country.

So I'm not supporting pay increases for people that contribute to them. Period.

[SuperHornet]

JSO: While that's not just teacher's unions, they're certainly notorious for it. And the problem with that is it's usually closed-shop with little to no opportunity to opt out. If you're a conservative teacher and choose not to pay membership dues, you're forced to pay a "negotiating fee," which is funnelled right into the bag that supports the crap you're trying to avoid anyway.

There ARE a ton of outstanding teachers out there. But the unions ruin it for everyone else. Unions suck!

[D1B]

JSO: While that's not just teacher's unions, they're certainly notorious for it. And the problem with that is it's usually closed-shop with little to no opportunity to opt out. If you're a conservative teacher and choose not to pay membership dues, you're forced to pay a "negotiating fee," which is funnelled right into the bag that supports the crap you're trying to avoid anyway.

There ARE a ton of outstanding teachers out there. But the unions ruin it for everyone else. Unions suck!

Nobody would become a teacher without the benefits secured by unions.

[GannonFan]

It's not really the hard benefits (health care, retirement, etc), a good employer is going to have to have decent benefits to attract good teachers, but where unions are necessary in the public school setting is in the protection of the workers from indiscriminate retaliation. I wouldn't want to work in a business or field where I deal with 50 new "customers" (i.e. parents) every year and if what I do, even if correct, pisses off a very influential one, then I get fired. Angering a rougue parent who has the ear of the school board or some other higher up who could impact my employment wouldn't be a great thing and in my mind, this is the one single thing that teacher unions are instrumental in preventing and what I wouldn't want to lose from the system. Do they go too far in protecting truly bad teachers? Absolutely, but there's going to need to be some line somewhere that prevents "Tommy's" parents from getting a teacher fired simply because she made "Tommy" toe the line in class or graded him accurately.

[YoUDeeMan]

JSO: While that's not just teacher's unions, they're certainly notorious for it. And the problem with that is it's usually closed-shop with little to no opportunity to opt out. If you're a conservative teacher and choose not to pay membership dues, you're forced to pay a "negotiating fee," which is funnelled right into the bag that supports the crap you're trying to avoid anyway.

There ARE a ton of outstanding teachers out there. But the unions ruin it for everyone else. Unions suck!

Nobody would become a teacher without the benefits secured by unions.

When did teaching start? When did unions start? Why do part-time teachers teach? Why do private school teachers teach?

Never mind, you have your mind set on auto-pilot.

[D1B]

Nobody would become a teacher without the benefits secured by unions.

When did teaching start? When did unions start? Why do part-time teachers teach? Why do private school teachers teach?

Never mind, you have your mind set on auto-pilot.

It's a different world now, ass hat. Sure there are exceptions; teachers with separately secured wealth or a spouse with high income.

People don't typically go into a profession, especially one that's as challenging as teaching, to be poor and miserable, you dope.

[YoUDeeMan]

It's not really the hard benefits (health care, retirement, etc), a good employer is going to have to have decent benefits to attract good teachers, but where unions are necessary in the public school setting is in the protection of the workers from indiscriminate retaliation. I wouldn't want to work in a business or field where I deal with 50 new "customers" (i.e. parents) every year and if what I do, even if correct, pisses off a very influential one, then I get fired. Angering a rougue parent who has the ear of the school board or some other higher up who could impact my employment wouldn't be a great thing and in my mind, this is the one single thing that teacher unions are instrumental in preventing and what I wouldn't want to lose from the system. Do they go too far in protecting truly bad teachers? Absolutely, but there's going to need to be some line somewhere that prevents "Tommy's" parents from getting a teacher fired simply because she made "Tommy" toe the line in class or graded him accurately.

I've been involved in one way of another with private schools for most of my life and I have yet to hear of a teacher that was terminated because they pissed off a rougue parent. In fact, many snot-nosed kids thought they had immunity and could call Daddy and were disappointed when they were thrown out of school over their parents' objections. In the end, the parents back down because they usually have a reputation (or business) to protect...as does the school.

My wife teaches in public school, and she has a good administration that backs the teachers...not because of the union, but because they are good managers. She has never had to call in the union to protect her job...neither did my mother.

Forget the unions, make sure the school has good teachers and administrators (good is not synonymous with numerous and overpaid).

[D1B]

It's not really the hard benefits (health care, retirement, etc), a good employer is going to have to have decent benefits to attract good teachers, but where unions are necessary in the public school setting is in the protection of the workers from indiscriminate retaliation. I wouldn't want to work in a business or field where I deal with 50 new "customers" (i.e. parents) every year and if what I do, even if correct, pisses off a very influential one, then I get fired. Angering a rougue parent who has the ear of the school board or some other higher up who could impact my employment wouldn't be a great thing and in my mind, this is the one single thing that teacher unions are instrumental in preventing and what I wouldn't want to lose from the system. Do they go too far in protecting truly bad teachers? Absolutely, but there's going to need to be some line somewhere that prevents "Tommy's" parents from getting a teacher fired simply because she made "Tommy" toe the line in class or graded him accurately.

I've been involved in one way of another with private schools for most of my life and I have yet to hear of a teacher that was terminated because they pissed off a rougue parent. In fact, many snot-nosed kids thought they had immunity and could call Daddy and were disappointed when they were thrown out of school over their parents' objections. In the end, the parents back down because they usually have a reputation (or business) to protect...as does the school.

My wife teaches in public school, and she has a good administration that backs the teachers...not because of the union, but because they are good managers. She has never had to call in the union to protect her job...neither did my mother.

Forget the unions, make sure the school has good teachers and administrators (good is not synonymous with numerous and overpaid).

Good for you.

[D1B]

I've been involved in one way of another with private schools for most of my life and I have yet to hear of a teacher that was terminated because they pissed off a rougue parent. In fact, many snot-nosed kids thought they had immunity and could call Daddy and were disappointed when they were thrown out of school over their parents' objections. In the end, the parents back down because they usually have a reputation (or business) to protect...as does the school.

My wife teaches in public school, and she has a good administration that backs the teachers...not because of the union, but because they are good managers. She has never had to call in the union to protect her job...neither did my mother.

Forget the unions, make sure the school has good teachers and administrators (good is not synonymous with numerous and overpaid).

Good for you.

Your wife would be making $2.75 an hour without her union.

[YoUDeeMan]

When did teaching start? When did unions start? Why do part-time teachers teach? Why do private school teachers teach?

Never mind, you have your mind set on auto-pilot.

It's a different world now, ass hat. Sure there are exceptions; teachers with separately secured wealth or a spouse with high income.

People don't typically go into a profession, especially one that's as challenging as teaching, to be poor and miserable, you dope.

Why do people go into health care at the lower levels jobs? Do you know the challenges of helping people with disapbilities (especially those that can't spell or type)? Few benefits...no union...and yet we have people doing it all the time. According to you...they are all miserable...or they are a "few" exceptions.

I can provide many more "exceptions" to the point where they aren't exceptions.

Maybe you should change your ourtlook as to what makes people tick.

[YoUDeeMan]

Good for you.

Your wife would be making $2.75 an hour without her union.

You're quoting yourself.

Put your pants back on, I'm done with your beating.

[D1B]

It's a different world now, ass hat. Sure there are exceptions; teachers with separately secured wealth or a spouse with high income.

People don't typically go into a profession, especially one that's as challenging as teaching, to be poor and miserable, you dope.

Why do people go into health care at the lower levels jobs? Do you know the challenges of helping people with disapbilities (especially those that can't spell or type)? Few benefits...no union...and yet we have people doing it all the time. According to you...they are all miserable...or they are a "few" exceptions.

I can provide many more "exceptions" to the point where they aren't exceptions.

Maybe you should change your ourtlook as to what makes people tick.

They're low skill, low education, first jobs for the young type jobs. That's why people go into them. Gotta start somewhere.

[GannonFan]

It's not really the hard benefits (health care, retirement, etc), a good employer is going to have to have decent benefits to attract good teachers, but where unions are necessary in the public school setting is in the protection of the workers from indiscriminate retaliation. I wouldn't want to work in a business or field where I deal with 50 new "customers" (i.e. parents) every year and if what I do, even if correct, pisses off a very influential one, then I get fired. Angering a rougue parent who has the ear of the school board or some other higher up who could impact my employment wouldn't be a great thing and in my mind, this is the one single thing that teacher unions are instrumental in preventing and what I wouldn't want to lose from the system. Do they go too far in protecting truly bad teachers? Absolutely, but there's going to need to be some line somewhere that prevents "Tommy's" parents from getting a teacher fired simply because she made "Tommy" toe the line in class or graded him accurately.

I've been involved in one way of another with private schools for most of my life and I have yet to hear of a teacher that was terminated because they pissed off a rougue parent. In fact, many snot-nosed kids thought they had immunity and could call Daddy and were disappointed when they were thrown out of school over their parents' objections. In the end, the parents back down because they usually have a reputation (or business) to protect...as does the school.

My wife teaches in public school, and she has a good administration that backs the teachers...not because of the union, but because they are good managers. She has never had to call in the union to protect her job...neither did my mother.

Forget the unions, make sure the school has good teachers and administrators (good is not synonymous with numerous and overpaid).

Really, never? So the several I know of are the only ones that have ever been terminated because of something like this? Your private schools must be in a cocoon because it certainly happens. No one's going to argue that it's rampant, but it's not rare or as you imply, non-existent.

And sure, if a school has good administrators, good managers, then this isn't a problem. However, even in the real world, the range of managers tends to go from terrible to great - just assuming you'll always be at the top end of that distribution is more wishful thinking than reality.

[Ibanez]

Blacks have no business teaching to white children.

FINALLY! SOMEONE SAID IT!

[GannonFan]

Blacks have no business teaching to white children.

FINALLY! SOMEONE SAID IT!

He's just quoting citdog, who has probably said that once a day every day of his life. People should footnote their sources better these days, darn message board plagerism.

[Ibanez]

JSO: While that's not just teacher's unions, they're certainly notorious for it. And the problem with that is it's usually closed-shop with little to no opportunity to opt out. If you're a conservative teacher and choose not to pay membership dues, you're forced to pay a "negotiating fee," which is funnelled right into the bag that supports the crap you're trying to avoid anyway.

There ARE a ton of outstanding teachers out there. But the unions ruin it for everyone else. Unions suck!

Nobody would become a teacher without the benefits secured by unions.

Except for those teachers in Right to Work states with no unions.

[YoUDeeMan]

Really, never? So the several I know of are the only ones that have ever been terminated because of something like this? Your private schools must be in a cocoon because it certainly happens. No one's going to argue that it's rampant, but it's not rare or as you imply, non-existent.

And sure, if a school has good administrators, good managers, then this isn't a problem. However, even in the real world, the range of managers tends to go from terrible to great - just assuming you'll always be at the top end of that distribution is more wishful thinking than reality.

Never implied it was non-existent. In fact, my focus on having good managers backing their teachers implied that teachers need to be backed...that attempts at such terminations exist.

Back to the point...if you know "several" teachers that were going to be terminated because of a parent's complaint (and we'll assume that complaint wasn't valid), and you've been around for 40-some years, and you seem to be somewhat well informed, then I'd say it's a pretty rare situation.

I'd bet that you know "several" people in the private sector througout your lifetime that have been threatened with termination for indiscriminate retaliation. Would you insist, "but where unions are necessary in the private business setting is in the protection of the workers from indiscriminate retaliation"?

[Cap'n Cat]

You anti's are all fucks.

Just got back from an activity at Lt. Cat's school today, "An Apple and a Book", in which parents were invited to come read with their kids for a while, and at the same time, munch on an apple (organic, from the whole foods store in town, by the way, Conks! ). The participation was phenomenal, cars were lined up to the state highway three blocks away - moms coming in with babies in tow, dads talking an hour off work. All organized by the teachers and the principal (the latter an African-American woman, by the way, Conks! ).

Some of you assholes without kids and all of you assholes with kids who long ago left the school systems need to go to the schools these days and see what's happening. No one gives a fvck about their union. What they do give a fvck about is kids, even in the "bad" schools (which are, more often that not, "bad" because school board Conks have gutted budgets far beyond the point at which the body is cold).

Fuck you all.

Love

Cappy

[YoUDeeMan]

You anti's are all fucks.

Just got back from an activity at Lt. Cat's school today, "An Apple and a Book", in which parents were invited to come read with their kids for a while, and at the same time, munch on an apple (organic, from the whole foods store in town, by the way, Conks! ). The participation was phenomenal, cars were lined up to the state highway three blocks away - moms coming in with babies in tow, dads talking an hour off work. All organized by the teachers and the principal (the latter an African-American woman, by the way, Conks! ).

Some of you assholes without kids and all of you assholes with kids who long ago left the school systems need to go to the schools these days and see what's happening. No one gives a fvck about their union. What they do give a fvck about is kids, even in the "bad" schools (which are, more often that not, "bad" because school board Conks have gutted budgets far beyond the point at which the body is cold).

Fuck you all.

Love

Cappy

Why do Donks alway bring up skin color...as if it matters? Next thing you know Cappy will be telling us how many African-American fathers there were in attendance and how many were paying their share of child support...and letting us know how many black friends he has (as though we'd believe him).

Then he'll let us know what percentage of the teachers were in attendance...and how many were actually happy to be there versus how many were there because it was "expected".