Keeping teacher pay low is a biblical principle.

[clenz]

Salaries of teachers currently make up 80% of all of educational spending....

[kalm]

You aunt is the in the extreme minority then. Like I said, teachers aren't really required to do anything extra...maybe "bus duty" or recess duty here or there....and grading papers/tests outside of school.

I'm just saying that while the job is thankless to say that teachers are underpaid/overworked is an overstatement in many ways.

There's a difference between what they are required to do and what they are obligated to do. For example, I was at my youngest son's basketball game last weekend on a Saturday and I saw his former 2nd grade teacher just to watch a couple of her students play. I've seen this happen many times before by other teachers.

Like you, I had many family and currently have friends in education and like many bosses/ceo's they take it home with them and think about their work - often their disadvantaged kids - night and day. They come in during the summer and on weekends to catch up or make their classroom better, they do things like go out and by used mattresses and clothing for students who are in need etc.

I'm not uncomfortable about teacher pay either way, but I guess it's kind of like tipping. Some people get it, and others are cheap skate tight-ass-wads about it. Good luck with the Karma that finds spit in your food.

[YoUDeeMan]

There's a difference between what they are required to do and what they are obligated to do. For example, I was at my youngest son's basketball game last weekend on a Saturday and I saw his former 2nd grade teacher just to watch a couple of her students play. I've seen this happen many times before by other teachers.

Uhhh...I've always volunteered to help kids...despite working an ungodly number of hours per week. I took underprivileged kids camping, hiking, canoeing, and kayaking...all during my weekend time. Coached soccer teams (not my son’s), refereed basketball and soccer (volunteered, not paid…before I had my son), participated in several charity regattas and took/take kids sailing on a regular basis. I volunteered many times to teach kids to read at the local library…again, before my son was born. The list goes on and on…

Yes, some teachers spend extra time motivating kids…but so do others who aren’t teachers. That doesn’t mean anyone gets extra pay for those efforts.

[kalm]

There's a difference between what they are required to do and what they are obligated to do. For example, I was at my youngest son's basketball game last weekend on a Saturday and I saw his former 2nd grade teacher just to watch a couple of her students play. I've seen this happen many times before by other teachers.

Uhhh...I've always volunteered to help kids...despite working an ungodly number of hours per week. I took underprivileged kids camping, hiking, canoeing, and kayaking...all during my weekend time. Coached soccer teams (not my son’s), refereed basketball and soccer (volunteered, not paid…before I had my son), participated in several charity regattas and took/take kids sailing on a regular basis. I volunteered many times to teach kids to read at the local library…again, before my son was born. The list goes on and on…

Yes, some teachers spend extra time motivating kids…but so do others who aren’t teachers. That doesn’t mean anyone gets extra pay for those efforts.

First of all, that's outstanding work on your part.

But I think this trait is prevalent in the teaching profession. I haven't seen my kids dentists, doctors, or credit union managers where they have their own accounts attend their games.

[AZGrizFan]

Uhhh...I've always volunteered to help kids...despite working an ungodly number of hours per week. I took underprivileged kids camping, hiking, canoeing, and kayaking...all during my weekend time. Coached soccer teams (not my son’s), refereed basketball and soccer (volunteered, not paid…before I had my son), participated in several charity regattas and took/take kids sailing on a regular basis. I volunteered many times to teach kids to read at the local library…again, before my son was born. The list goes on and on…

Yes, some teachers spend extra time motivating kids…but so do others who aren’t teachers. That doesn’t mean anyone gets extra pay for those efforts.

First of all, that's outstanding work on your part.

But I think this trait is prevalent in the teaching profession. I haven't seen my kids dentists, doctors, or credit union managers where they have their own accounts attend their games.

Well, then you're not paying close enough attention...which I would expect.

[kalm]

First of all, that's outstanding work on your part.

But I think this trait is prevalent in the teaching profession. I haven't seen my kids dentists, doctors, or credit union managers where they have their own accounts attend their games.

Well, then you're not paying close enough attention...which I would expect.

Don't worry Z. My boys are not yet part of the 1%. You're not expected to attend.

[Skjellyfetti]

Salaries of teachers currently make up 80% of all of educational spending....

Maybe because they do the... uhm.... educating?

[89Hen]

My aunts put more hours in each week than my Dad who works 50-60 hours.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to go ahead and call bullshit on that. Why the need to exaggerate? 60 hours per week is six 10 hour days. Most school days are 7.5 hours long. That means they are spending 2.5 hours EVERY day before/after school hours plus 10 hours on EVERY Saturday and Sunday just to get to 60. I don't know a single teacher that teaches all 7.5 hours at school. Most have open periods where they can have student meetings, grade papers, work on teaching plans, etc... I'm sure there are occassional meetings, parent conferences, etc.. but those are often held on "in-service" days and not after hours. Now I'm sure there is plenty of work that is done outside of school, but I will guarantee there's not a teacher around that averages 60 hours per week.

[D1B]

My aunts put more hours in each week than my Dad who works 50-60 hours.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to go ahead and call bullshit on that. Why the need to exaggerate? 60 hours per week is six 10 hour days. Most school days are 7.5 hours long. That means they are spending 2.5 hours EVERY day before/after school hours plus 10 hours on EVERY Saturday and Sunday just to get to 60. I don't know a single teacher that teaches all 7.5 hours at school. Most have open periods where they can have student meetings, grade papers, work on teaching plans, etc... I'm sure there are occassional meetings, parent conferences, etc.. but those are often held on "in-service" days and not after hours. Now I'm sure there is plenty of work that is done outside of school, but I will guarantee there's not a teacher around that averages 60 hours per week.

Nice call. Then add the fact they have the entire summer off, more holidays and Xmas and spring breaks.

[GannonFan]

My aunts put more hours in each week than my Dad who works 50-60 hours.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to go ahead and call bullshit on that. Why the need to exaggerate? 60 hours per week is six 10 hour days. Most school days are 7.5 hours long. That means they are spending 2.5 hours EVERY day before/after school hours plus 10 hours on EVERY Saturday and Sunday just to get to 60. I don't know a single teacher that teaches all 7.5 hours at school. Most have open periods where they can have student meetings, grade papers, work on teaching plans, etc... I'm sure there are occassional meetings, parent conferences, etc.. but those are often held on "in-service" days and not after hours. Now I'm sure there is plenty of work that is done outside of school, but I will guarantee there's not a teacher around that averages 60 hours per week.

My wife's a teacher and it is different for what level you teach. At the Elementary level teachers don't have the open periods that the higher grades would have. For some reason, it's more acceptable at the high school level to only teach maybe 5 periods a day. It never makes a lot of sense since teachers at the higher grades typically only teach one subject and often teach the same levels in the one subject so there is less planning that goes into a day's worth of instruction (i.e. they teach the same lesson plan to more than one period of kids). At the lower grades, you end up teaching multiple subjects so it just increases the number of lesson plans you have.

So I agree with the point that most teachers aren't coming anywhere close to the 60 hour a week number - a lot of the conferences and meeting happen during the workday (substitutes are routinely called in to cover when this happens - many places have permanent building substitutes that just shuttle around each day to whomever is having a meeting and needs coverage). And even if you do an hour's worth of work at home everyday that's still just 5 more hours, and most anyone who's not a laborer does that typically right now in other professions. But there is a weird stratification in terms of work between which grades you teach - and oddly, it's often the higher grades teachers who tend to be the most "rabble-rousing" when it comes to union related issues. Maybe they have too much time on their hands?

[Gil Dobie]

It's the Big Education Admin that's keeping the teachers pay low. Looked at my local schools budget and 27% is going towards teachers and the admin is get the same or more for a smaller amount of people.

[bluehenbillk]

Perosnally I think teachers are probably paid what they deserve - if anything teachers salaries in some districts should be higher than they are today.

In case you haven't noticed there is an education crisis currently in the USA. Over 1/3 of kids today do not graduate high school. For the 2/3 that do graduate, the ever-increasing costs of going to a 4-year college are driving post-graduate debt to an ever-escalating all-time high.

If I was in politics I would endorse some kind of minimum standard policy that would allow school districts & colleges to more easily terminate poor teachers. Additionally, I would look at increasing funding for elementart & secondary schools and work to make colleges more financially attainable.

Lastly, to help pay for it - taking a cue from Gov Walker from WI - I'd reform the retirement plans for teachers & their benefit structure. Because public school teachers are state employees their benefit packages are among the sweetest you'll find anywhere.

[89Hen]

My wife's a teacher and it is different for what level you teach. At the Elementary level teachers don't have the open periods that the higher grades would have...

FWIW, the homework to grade at higher levels must take 10x longer. Not too many papers on scientific method to read in 2nd grade.

[89Hen]

Over 1/3 of kids today do not graduate high school.

Is that accurate? Jeeze, what are you people doing in the rest of the country? Even DC public schools graduate at a 72-74% clip.

[GannonFan]

Perosnally I think teachers are probably paid what they deserve - if anything teachers salaries in some districts should be higher than they are today.

In case you haven't noticed there is an education crisis currently in the USA. Over 1/3 of kids today do not graduate high school. For the 2/3 that do graduate, the ever-increasing costs of going to a 4-year college are driving post-graduate debt to an ever-escalating all-time high.

If I was in politics I would endorse some kind of minimum standard policy that would allow school districts & colleges to more easily terminate poor teachers. Additionally, I would look at increasing funding for elementart & secondary schools and work to make colleges more financially attainable.

Lastly, to help pay for it - taking a cue from Gov Walker from WI - I'd reform the retirement plans for teachers & their benefit structure. Because public school teachers are state employees their benefit packages are among the sweetest you'll find anywhere.

Great ideas, the problem always lies in the details. What would the minimum standard look like, how would you measure it, and what constitutes a poor teacher? How do you increase funding for elementary and secondary schools (i.e. where does the money come from), what is that funding used for (buildings, teachers, materials) and how do you make colleges more financially attainable? That's a lot of details there and I'm sure very few people are against the general gist of it. The problem always lies on the question of how exactly to get that done.

[GannonFan]

Over 1/3 of kids today do not graduate high school.

Is that accurate? Jeeze, what are you people doing in the rest of the country? Even DC public schools graduate at a 72-74% clip.

Sadly, yup - national average is 72%. Makes you wonder why they even let kids drop out of high school - many states allow kids as young as 16 to decide on their own to quit. Granted, just keeping them in school or dumbing down the degree doesn't solve the actual problem that kids aren't learning enough to succeed in life, but it doesn't help that they can just up and leave the day they turn 16.

[89Hen]

Over 1/3 of kids today do not graduate high school.

Is that accurate?

Sadly, yup - national average is 72%.

Ummm....

[kalm]

Is that accurate? Jeeze, what are you people doing in the rest of the country? Even DC public schools graduate at a 72-74% clip.

Sadly, yup - national average is 72%. Makes you wonder why they even let kids drop out of high school - many states allow kids as young as 16 to decide on their own to quit. Granted, just keeping them in school or dumbing down the degree doesn't solve the actual problem that kids aren't learning enough to succeed in life, but it doesn't help that they can just up and leave the day they turn 16.

Agreed. And I've said it before but we need to separate the academically minded kids with a shot at higher ed from the vocationally minded kids somewhere in the middle school years so that the kids who never intend to go to college anyway and are often times given the boot early at least have some job training or even an apprenticeship in a trade.

I think countries like China and Finland already do this.

[D1B]

Sadly, yup - national average is 72%. Makes you wonder why they even let kids drop out of high school - many states allow kids as young as 16 to decide on their own to quit. Granted, just keeping them in school or dumbing down the degree doesn't solve the actual problem that kids aren't learning enough to succeed in life, but it doesn't help that they can just up and leave the day they turn 16.

Agreed. And I've said it before but we need to separate the academically minded kids with a shot at higher ed from the vocationally minded kids somewhere in the middle school years so that the kids who never intend to go to college anyway and are often times given the boot early at least have some job training or even an apprenticeship in a trade.

I think countries like China and Finland already do this.

[CID1990]

Agreed. And I've said it before but we need to separate the academically minded kids with a shot at higher ed from the vocationally minded kids somewhere in the middle school years so that the kids who never intend to go to college anyway and are often times given the boot early at least have some job training or even an apprenticeship in a trade.

I think countries like China and Finland already do this.

It'll NEVER happen.

What do you think these kids are going to do... the ones who we have been teaching for so many years that they are all perfect and can do anything they want to? Please. We've done more irreversible damage to education in this country in the last 40 years than we will ever be able to make up in the next 200. Too many people have been institutionalized. The minute we try something like this, the Sharptons are going to be marching in the streets about how this is just a modern attempt to re-segregate the schools by shunting the poor minority kids off to trade schools.

[JohnStOnge]

I have two sisters who are public school teachers. However, I would never support a teacher pay raise unless and until we reach a situation in which teachers reject teachers' unions. As long as the majority of them are members of teachers' unions, I say, "screw 'em."

If they reject the idea of belonging to unions and present themselvres as professionals, then I'll go along with treating them as professionals.

[kalm]

I have two sisters who are public school teachers. However, I would never support a teacher pay raise unless and until we reach a situation in which teachers reject teachers' unions. As long as the majority of them are members of teachers' unions, I say, "screw 'em."

If they reject the idea of belonging to unions and present themselvres as professionals, then I'll go along with treating them as professionals.

1) Teachers are some of the most highly skilled and professional people I know.

2) Why on earth would they reject something that benefits them? Should businesses reject trade associations and the chamber of commerce?

[AZGrizFan]

I have two sisters who are public school teachers. However, I would never support a teacher pay raise unless and until we reach a situation in which teachers reject teachers' unions. As long as the majority of them are members of teachers' unions, I say, "screw 'em."

If they reject the idea of belonging to unions and present themselvres as professionals, then I'll go along with treating them as professionals.

1) Teachers are some of the most highly skilled and professional people I know.

2) Why on earth would they reject something that benefits them? Should businesses reject trade associations and the chamber of commerce?

Seriously, you need to get out more.

[kalm]

1) Teachers are some of the most highly skilled and professional people I know.

2) Why on earth would they reject something that benefits them? Should businesses reject trade associations and the chamber of commerce?

Seriously, you need to get out more.

Thanks, but I'm blessed to know a great variety of professional people some of which impress, some of which don't. Reading this thread, it's interesting to see some of the greatest C.S.Com political minds either married to or having family affiliations with teachers - many of them conks too. You, my friend, need to step down from your high horse once in awhile.

[AZGrizFan]

Seriously, you need to get out more.

Thanks, but I'm blessed to know a great variety of professional people some of which impress, some of which don't. Reading this thread, it's interesting to see some of the greatest C.S.Com political minds either married to or having family affiliations with teachers - many of them conks too. You, my friend, need to step down from your high horse once in awhile.

Perhaps it's only the entire DISTRICT my kids used to belong to. Their new HS is a competely different experience and is slowly renewing my faith in the teaching profession....but it doesn't change the fact their pay scale is just fine.