WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Truth

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WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Truth

Post by travelinman67 »

...just waiting for all the Congressional Dems to step up and hail this Colonel as a hero. :roll:

Truth, lies and Afghanistan
How military leaders have let us down
By LT. COL. DANIEL L. DAVIS

http://armedforcesjournal.com/2012/02/8904030
I spent last year in Afghanistan, visiting and talking with U.S. troops and their Afghan partners. My duties with the Army’s Rapid Equipping Force took me into every significant area where our soldiers engage the enemy. Over the course of 12 months, I covered more than 9,000 miles and talked, traveled and patrolled with troops in Kandahar, Kunar, Ghazni, Khost, Paktika, Kunduz, Balkh, Nangarhar and other provinces.

What I saw bore no resemblance to rosy official statements by U.S. military leaders about conditions on the ground.

Entering this deployment, I was sincerely hoping to learn that the claims were true: that conditions in Afghanistan were improving, that the local government and military were progressing toward self-sufficiency. I did not need to witness dramatic improvements to be reassured, but merely hoped to see evidence of positive trends, to see companies or battalions produce even minimal but sustainable progress.




Instead, I witnessed the absence of success on virtually every level.

My arrival in country in late 2010 marked the start of my fourth combat deployment, and my second in Afghanistan. A Regular Army officer in the Armor Branch, I served in Operation Desert Storm, in Afghanistan in 2005-06 and in Iraq in 2008-09. In the middle of my career, I spent eight years in the U.S. Army Reserve and held a number of civilian jobs — among them, legislative correspondent for defense and foreign affairs for Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-Texas.

As a representative for the Rapid Equipping Force, I set out to talk to our troops about their needs and their circumstances. Along the way, I conducted mounted and dismounted combat patrols, spending time with conventional and Special Forces troops. I interviewed or had conversations with more than 250 soldiers in the field, from the lowest-ranking 19-year-old private to division commanders and staff members at every echelon. I spoke at length with Afghan security officials, Afghan civilians and a few village elders.

I saw the incredible difficulties any military force would have to pacify even a single area of any of those provinces; I heard many stories of how insurgents controlled virtually every piece of land beyond eyeshot of a U.S. or International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) base.

I saw little to no evidence the local governments were able to provide for the basic needs of the people. Some of the Afghan civilians I talked with said the people didn’t want to be connected to a predatory or incapable local government.

From time to time, I observed Afghan Security forces collude with the insurgency.

From Bad to Abysmal

Much of what I saw during my deployment, let alone read or wrote in official reports, I can’t talk about; the information remains classified. But I can say that such reports — mine and others’ — serve to illuminate the gulf between conditions on the ground and official statements of progress.

And I can relate a few representative experiences, of the kind that I observed all over the country.

In January 2011, I made my first trip into the mountains of Kunar province near the Pakistan border to visit the troops of 1st Squadron, 32nd Cavalry. On a patrol to the northernmost U.S. position in eastern Afghanistan, we arrived at an Afghan National Police (ANP) station that had reported being attacked by the Taliban 2½ hours earlier.

Through the interpreter, I asked the police captain where the attack had originated, and he pointed to the side of a nearby mountain.

“What are your normal procedures in situations like these?” I asked. “Do you form up a squad and go after them? Do you periodically send out harassing patrols? What do you do?”

As the interpreter conveyed my questions, the captain’s head wheeled around, looking first at the interpreter and turning to me with an incredulous expression. Then he laughed.

“No! We don’t go after them,” he said. “That would be dangerous!”

According to the cavalry troopers, the Afghan policemen rarely leave the cover of the checkpoints. In that part of the province, the Taliban literally run free.

In June, I was in the Zharay district of Kandahar province, returning to a base from a dismounted patrol. Gunshots were audible as the Taliban attacked a U.S. checkpoint about one mile away.

As I entered the unit’s command post, the commander and his staff were watching a live video feed of the battle. Two ANP vehicles were blocking the main road leading to the site of the attack. The fire was coming from behind a haystack. We watched as two Afghan men emerged, mounted a motorcycle and began moving toward the Afghan policemen in their vehicles.

The U.S. commander turned around and told the Afghan radio operator to make sure the policemen halted the men. The radio operator shouted into the radio repeatedly, but got no answer.

On the screen, we watched as the two men slowly motored past the ANP vehicles. The policemen neither got out to stop the two men nor answered the radio — until the motorcycle was out of sight.

To a man, the U.S. officers in that unit told me they had nothing but contempt for the Afghan troops in their area — and that was before the above incident occurred.

In August, I went on a dismounted patrol with troops in the Panjwai district of Kandahar province. Several troops from the unit had recently been killed in action, one of whom was a very popular and experienced soldier. One of the unit’s senior officers rhetorically asked me, “How do I look these men in the eye and ask them to go out day after day on these missions? What’s harder: How do I look [my soldier’s] wife in the eye when I get back and tell her that her husband died for something meaningful? How do I do that?”

One of the senior enlisted leaders added, “Guys are saying, ‘I hope I live so I can at least get home to R&R leave before I get it,’ or ‘I hope I only lose a foot.’ Sometimes they even say which limb it might be: ‘Maybe it’ll only be my left foot.’ They don’t have a lot of confidence that the leadership two levels up really understands what they’re living here, what the situation really is.”

On Sept. 11, the 10th anniversary of the infamous attack on the U.S., I visited another unit in Kunar province, this one near the town of Asmar. I talked with the local official who served as the cultural adviser to the U.S. commander. Here’s how the conversation went:

Davis: “Here you have many units of the Afghan National Security Forces [ANSF]. Will they be able to hold out against the Taliban when U.S. troops leave this area?”

Adviser: “No. They are definitely not capable. Already all across this region [many elements of] the security forces have made deals with the Taliban. [The ANSF] won’t shoot at the Taliban, and the Taliban won’t shoot them.

“Also, when a Taliban member is arrested, he is soon released with no action taken against him. So when the Taliban returns [when the Americans leave after 2014], so too go the jobs, especially for everyone like me who has worked with the coalition.

“Recently, I got a cellphone call from a Talib who had captured a friend of mine. While I could hear, he began to beat him, telling me I’d better quit working for the Americans. I could hear my friend crying out in pain. [The Talib] said the next time they would kidnap my sons and do the same to them. Because of the direct threats, I’ve had to take my children out of school just to keep them safe.

“And last night, right on that mountain there [he pointed to a ridge overlooking the U.S. base, about 700 meters distant], a member of the ANP was murdered. The Taliban came and called him out, kidnapped him in front of his parents, and took him away and murdered him. He was a member of the ANP from another province and had come back to visit his parents. He was only 27 years old. The people are not safe anywhere.”

That murder took place within view of the U.S. base, a post nominally responsible for the security of an area of hundreds of square kilometers. Imagine how insecure the population is beyond visual range. And yet that conversation was representative of what I saw in many regions of Afghanistan.

In all of the places I visited, the tactical situation was bad to abysmal. If the events I have described — and many, many more I could mention — had been in the first year of war, or even the third or fourth, one might be willing to believe that Afghanistan was just a hard fight, and we should stick it out. Yet these incidents all happened in the 10th year of war.

As the numbers depicting casualties and enemy violence indicate the absence of progress, so too did my observations of the tactical situation all over Afghanistan.

Credibility Gap

I’m hardly the only one who has noted the discrepancy between official statements and the truth on the ground.

A January 2011 report by the Afghan NGO Security Office noted that public statements made by U.S. and ISAF leaders at the end of 2010 were “sharply divergent from IMF, [international military forces, NGO-speak for ISAF] ‘strategic communication’ messages suggesting improvements. We encourage [nongovernment organization personnel] to recognize that no matter how authoritative the source of any such claim, messages of the nature are solely intended to influence American and European public opinion ahead of the withdrawal, and are not intended to offer an accurate portrayal of the situation for those who live and work here.”

The following month, Anthony Cordesman, on behalf of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, wrote that ISAF and the U.S. leadership failed to report accurately on the reality of the situation in Afghanistan.

“Since June 2010, the unclassified reporting the U.S. does provide has steadily shrunk in content, effectively ‘spinning’ the road to victory by eliminating content that illustrates the full scale of the challenges ahead,” Cordesman wrote. “They also, however, were driven by political decisions to ignore or understate Taliban and insurgent gains from 2002 to 2009, to ignore the problems caused by weak and corrupt Afghan governance, to understate the risks posed by sanctuaries in Pakistan, and to ‘spin’ the value of tactical ISAF victories while ignoring the steady growth of Taliban influence and control.”

How many more men must die in support of a mission that is not succeeding and behind an array of more than seven years of optimistic statements by U.S. senior leaders in Afghanistan? No one expects our leaders to always have a successful plan. But we do expect — and the men who do the living, fighting and dying deserve — to have our leaders tell us the truth about what’s going on.

I first encountered senior-level equivocation during a 1997 division-level “experiment” that turned out to be far more setpiece than experiment. Over dinner at Fort Hood, Texas, Training and Doctrine Command leaders told me that the Advanced Warfighter Experiment (AWE) had shown that a “digital division” with fewer troops and more gear could be far more effective than current divisions. The next day, our congressional staff delegation observed the demonstration firsthand, and it didn’t take long to realize there was little substance to the claims. Virtually no legitimate experimentation was actually conducted. All parameters were carefully scripted. All events had a preordained sequence and outcome. The AWE was simply an expensive show, couched in the language of scientific experimentation and presented in glowing press releases and public statements, intended to persuade Congress to fund the Army’s preference. Citing the AWE’s “results,” Army leaders proceeded to eliminate one maneuver company per combat battalion. But the loss of fighting systems was never offset by a commensurate rise in killing capability.

A decade later, in the summer of 2007, I was assigned to the Future Combat Systems (FCS) organization at Fort Bliss, Texas. It didn’t take long to discover that the same thing the Army had done with a single division at Fort Hood in 1997 was now being done on a significantly larger scale with FCS. Year after year, the congressionally mandated reports from the Government Accountability Office revealed significant problems and warned that the system was in danger of failing. Each year, the Army’s senior leaders told members of Congress at hearings that GAO didn’t really understand the full picture and that to the contrary, the program was on schedule, on budget, and headed for success. Ultimately, of course, the program was canceled, with little but spinoffs to show for $18 billion spent.

If Americans were able to compare the public statements many of our leaders have made with classified data, this credibility gulf would be immediately observable. Naturally, I am not authorized to divulge classified material to the public. But I am legally able to share it with members of Congress. I have accordingly provided a much fuller accounting in a classified report to several members of Congress, both Democrats and Republicans, senators and House members.

A nonclassified version is available at http://www.afghanreport.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. [Editor’s note: At press time, Army public affairs had not yet ruled on whether Davis could post this longer version.]

Tell The Truth

When it comes to deciding what matters are worth plunging our nation into war and which are not, our senior leaders owe it to the nation and to the uniformed members to be candid — graphically, if necessary — in telling them what’s at stake and how expensive potential success is likely to be. U.S. citizens and their elected representatives can decide if the risk to blood and treasure is worth it.

Likewise when having to decide whether to continue a war, alter its aims or to close off a campaign that cannot be won at an acceptable price, our senior leaders have an obligation to tell Congress and American people the unvarnished truth and let the people decide what course of action to choose. That is the very essence of civilian control of the military. The American people deserve better than what they’ve gotten from their senior uniformed leaders over the last number of years. Simply telling the truth would be a good start. AFJ
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Re: WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Trut

Post by DSUrocks07 »

That's the case for politicians in general. So I guess dropping bombs in 2001 was all we should have done. (Just like Clinton did in the late '90s...and got called as being "soft" on terrorism.)
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Re: WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Trut

Post by ∞∞∞ »

Afghanistan is a lost cause. If we're there because of pride and not wanting soldiers to have died in vain, then we need to learn that it's ok to be wrong. If we're there 'cause of a seemingly growing military industrial complex, then we've got a much larger problem on our hand. Policing the world is a ridiculous national policy that's a relic of the Cold War era...incompatible with the world today. Should we help nations? Yes. However, their people need to show us that they're willing to help themselves first (Libya, Syria, etc.).
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Re: WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Trut

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∞∞∞ wrote: Policing the world is a ridiculous national policy that's a relic of the Cold War era...incompatible with the world today. Should we help nations? Yes. However, their people need to show us that they're willing to help themselves first (Libya, Syria, etc.).
I agree the U.S. shouldn't act as the "World Police". In the case of Afghanistan/Taliban/Al Quaeda, they brought the war to us, and still to this day, the U.S. is their primary target. Our involvement in Afghanistan/Pakistan/Iran is necessary to suppress agressors who would otherwise bring war onto our shores.
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Re: WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Trut

Post by D1B »

travelinman67 wrote:
∞∞∞ wrote: Policing the world is a ridiculous national policy that's a relic of the Cold War era...incompatible with the world today. Should we help nations? Yes. However, their people need to show us that they're willing to help themselves first (Libya, Syria, etc.).
I agree the U.S. shouldn't act as the "World Police". In the case of Afghanistan/Taliban/Al Quaeda, they brought the war to us, and still to this day, the U.S. is their primary target. Our involvement in Afghanistan/Pakistan/Iran is necessary to suppress agressors who would otherwise bring war onto our shores.
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Re: WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Trut

Post by ∞∞∞ »

travelinman67 wrote:I agree the U.S. shouldn't act as the "World Police". In the case of Afghanistan/Taliban/Al Quaeda, they brought the war to us, and still to this day, the U.S. is their primary target. Our involvement in Afghanistan/Pakistan/Iran is necessary to suppress agressors who would otherwise bring war onto our shores.
Due to our geography, population size, and natural resources, the US homeland is one of the toughest nations to wage a war against. There's no aggressor that will bring a war onto our shores...even industrialized nations would have a ridiculously tough time conducting a war over here. Terrorism is an unfortunate reality of today's world but it's something that can be dealt with without full-blown wars overseas. I'm more convinced that tougher immigration and homeland security policies have done more to stop potential terrorists than these wars ever will. Now I'm not saying to not have a presence, but it should be more along the line of covert missions and select air strikes.

As for Iran, let Israel deal with them. We need to stop being their puppets. :coffee:
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Re: WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Trut

Post by citdog »

∞∞∞ wrote:
travelinman67 wrote:I agree the U.S. shouldn't act as the "World Police". In the case of Afghanistan/Taliban/Al Quaeda, they brought the war to us, and still to this day, the U.S. is their primary target. Our involvement in Afghanistan/Pakistan/Iran is necessary to suppress agressors who would otherwise bring war onto our shores.
Due to our geography, population size, and natural resources, the US homeland is one of the toughest nations to wage a war against. There's no aggressor that will bring a war onto our shores...even industrialized nations would have a ridiculously tough time conducting a war over here. Terrorism is an unfortunate reality of today's world but it's something that can be dealt with without full-blown wars overseas. I'm more convinced that tougher immigration and homeland security policies have done more to stop potential terrorists than these wars ever will. Now I'm not saying to not have a presence, but it should be more along the line of covert missions and select air strikes.

As for Iran, let Israel deal with them. We need to stop being their puppets. :coffee:

the followers of the death cult of the pedophile camel jockey muhammad have long consorted with the mass murderers of GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE. 'the late united states' are certainly NOT the puppets of THE LAND THAT YAHWEH PROMISED HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE and only a JEW hating member of the aforementioned cult of the pedophile camel jockey would be so misinformed as to make such statement.


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Re: WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Trut

Post by ∞∞∞ »

Once again, I'm an atheist citdog. I'd say the same thing if it was Saudi Arabia or the Vatican; I have nothing against the Jewish religion and think Israel is a legit nation. However, the fact is that Israel does have a strong lobby in Washington and an equally strong influence on our foreign policies. It's something I and many other Americans don't like and we should be having more honest and open discussions about.

ps. You never answered me if you'd defend America or Israel if it came down to it. How long are you going to keep dodging that simple question Mr. Bonnie Blue? :coffee:
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Re: WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Trut

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I said it a long time ago in an Iraq thread. I believe you won't see any real change (effort) until the US has STOMPED the shit out of everyone for one generation. My thoughts were the current generation was so used to their plight, they don't have the will to make changes. It is only the next generation that takes a glimpse at a different life and acts.

The US needs to come down hard on Afghanistan for a good five more years if they ever want to see a change in thought over there.

Now, with that being said, I don't have the heart to watch us fight over there anymore. I want our troops home too. But I will say, the US needs to TAKE THE GLOVES OFF. You even look at us funny, and we pound the living shit out of you to teach you a lesson. I could live with that.
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SeattleGriz wrote:I said it a long time ago in an Iraq thread. I believe you won't see any real change (effort) until the US has STOMPED the shit out of everyone for one generation. My thoughts were the current generation was so used to their plight, they don't have the will to make changes. It is only the next generation that takes a glimpse at a different life and acts.

The US needs to come down hard on Afghanistan for a good five more years if they ever want to see a change in thought over there.

Now, with that being said, I don't have the heart to watch us fight over there anymore. I want our troops home too. But I will say, the US needs to TAKE THE GLOVES OFF. You even look at us funny, and we pound the living shit out of you to teach you a lesson. I could live with that.
So the children of that generation hate us even more than their parents already do?

How about spending some fraction of the billions we spend on trying to kill them to educate their children instead and give the free will to clean up their own act?
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Re: WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Trut

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danefan wrote:
SeattleGriz wrote:I said it a long time ago in an Iraq thread. I believe you won't see any real change (effort) until the US has STOMPED the shit out of everyone for one generation. My thoughts were the current generation was so used to their plight, they don't have the will to make changes. It is only the next generation that takes a glimpse at a different life and acts.

The US needs to come down hard on Afghanistan for a good five more years if they ever want to see a change in thought over there.

Now, with that being said, I don't have the heart to watch us fight over there anymore. I want our troops home too. But I will say, the US needs to TAKE THE GLOVES OFF. You even look at us funny, and we pound the living shit out of you to teach you a lesson. I could live with that.
So the children of that generation hate us even more than their parents already do?

How about spending some fraction of the billions we spend on trying to kill them to educate their children instead and give the free will to clean up their own act?
I wasn't saying pound the snot out of the civilians, the snot pounding is for the Taliban. If dumping money to educate works, then I am all for it as well. Anything to get the next generation to realize they do not have to follow the same path of letting the Taliban rule them.
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Re: WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Trut

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travelinman67 wrote:In the case of Afghanistan/Taliban/Al Quaeda, they brought the war to us, and still to this day, the U.S. is their primary target. Our involvement in Afghanistan/Pakistan/Iran is necessary to suppress agressors who would otherwise bring war onto our shores.
The idea that Afghanis are working towards the end of Western Civilization is about a looney as believing the same thing about a hooker living in a pay-by-the-hour hotel on Route 40 in New Castle, Delaware.

Frankly, they don't care about anything other than making their day a little better...sort of like everyone else on this planet.

Sure, there are a couple whack jobs looking to plant a bomb somewhere...but it doesn't take tens of thousands of our Armed Forces to find and eliminate those few outliers. Instead, we are occupying another country while coddling and financially supporting their crooked, drug smuggling, women-beating leaders...a strategy that worked so well in Central America, Asia, Africa, etc. Good thing we held off that Red Dawn invasion...those masses of Nicaraguans were ready to leave their land and stream over the border in the name of...what was it again? :dunce:

But, hey, Obama's war is going well. :lol: Let's just keep pouring billions into another shvthole in order to look tough. :suspicious:
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SeattleGriz wrote: I wasn't saying pound the snot out of the civilians, the snot pounding is for the Taliban. If dumping money to educate works, then I am all for it as well. Anything to get the next generation to realize they do not have to follow the same path of letting the Taliban rule them.
And who will rule them...our propped up "good guys" such as Karzai? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Or will they elect their own leaders? And who will be those leaders...the drug lords?

Egypt just elected the Muslin Brotherhood as leaders...with a more radical group coming in second. The Gaza strip has Hamas. Lebanon has Hezbollah. Great choices. :dunce:

On the other hand, Bahrain's popular people's uprising was CRUSHED by our allies...while we fiddled. Hell, we didn't even threaten to cut off their aid while they slaughtered their own people. But hey, we're concerned about the civilians in Libya and Syria. :rofl:

Hey, I have a novel idea. Why don't we get out of other people's business and spend the money to educate our own people first?

Oh, SeattleGriz...you might want to look up Afhganistan's history...you might find that stomping a single generation of people isn't quite as effective as you imagine.
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Post by SeattleGriz »

Cluck U wrote:
SeattleGriz wrote: I wasn't saying pound the snot out of the civilians, the snot pounding is for the Taliban. If dumping money to educate works, then I am all for it as well. Anything to get the next generation to realize they do not have to follow the same path of letting the Taliban rule them.
And who will rule them...our propped up "good guys" such as Karzai? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Or will they elect their own leaders? And who will be those leaders...the drug lords?

Egypt just elected the Muslin Brotherhood as leaders...with a more radical group coming in second. The Gaza strip has Hamas. Lebanon has Hezbollah. Great choices. :dunce:

On the other hand, Bahrain's popular people's uprising was CRUSHED by our allies...while we fiddled. Hell, we didn't even threaten to cut off their aid while they slaughtered their own people. But hey, we're concerned about the civilians in Libya and Syria. :rofl:

Hey, I have a novel idea. Why don't we get out of other people's business and spend the money to educate our own people first?

Oh, SeattleGriz...you might want to look up Afhganistan's history...you might find that stomping a single generation of people isn't quite as effective as you imagine.
I understand everything you are saying. My point, was that the Afghanis are a bunch of dumbasses who only know savagery. Being all nice gets us nowhere with them.
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Re: WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Trut

Post by AZGrizFan »

SeattleGriz wrote:
danefan wrote:
So the children of that generation hate us even more than their parents already do?

How about spending some fraction of the billions we spend on trying to kill them to educate their children instead and give the free will to clean up their own act?
I wasn't saying pound the snot out of the civilians, the snot pounding is for the Taliban. If dumping money to educate works, then I am all for it as well. Anything to get the next generation to realize they do not have to follow the same path of letting the Taliban rule them.
You can't pound someone into the stone age that's already there. Taliban outlasted the Russians, they'll outlast us. We got Bin Laden...bring the troops home.
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Re: WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Trut

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AZGrizFan wrote:
SeattleGriz wrote:
I wasn't saying pound the snot out of the civilians, the snot pounding is for the Taliban. If dumping money to educate works, then I am all for it as well. Anything to get the next generation to realize they do not have to follow the same path of letting the Taliban rule them.
You can't pound someone into the stone age that's already there. Taliban outlasted the Russians, they'll outlast us. We got Bin Laden...bring the troops home.
Want our troops home as well and actually stated that in a different post. Just saying that if we were to have made any headway, we needed to pound them, but that didn't happen. We, as usual fought this war with our arms and a leg tied behind our backs. The USA is and has always been fucked in the sense we are damned if we do, damned if we don't.
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Re: WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Trut

Post by AZGrizFan »

SeattleGriz wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
You can't pound someone into the stone age that's already there. Taliban outlasted the Russians, they'll outlast us. We got Bin Laden...bring the troops home.
Want our troops home as well and actually stated that in a different post. Just saying that if we were to have made any headway, we needed to pound them, but that didn't happen. We, as usual fought this war with our arms and a leg tied behind our backs. The USA is and has always been fucked in the sense we are damned if we do, damned if we don't.
The US will never again fight a war like we did WWI or WWII. Ain't gonna happen, no matter how much money we spend on the military. To many politicians making military decisions. We could cut our military to 1/3 it's current size and not lose any real effectiveness.
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Re: WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Trut

Post by SuperHornet »

We should have seen this coming. Afghanistan was the Soviets' Vietnam, and there were no indicators going in that it would be any different for us.

AZ: I wouldn't bet on not losing effectiveness while cutting end strength. I grant that we'll probably never pull another D-Day style major amphibious assault. But we've proven time and time again that while air superiority is required to win the day, bombing the crap out of somebody ALONE isn't going to win either. It takes boots on the ground, and lots of them. And it also takes lots of different types of ships to win sea wars. That also takes lots of people, even in this era of so-called "smart" ships that get effectively neutralized if too many people get sick or injured. In addition, with the multiple-deployment scenario we've seen lately, people are coming back not able to adjust to "peace time." If we cut back too far, somebody's going to pull a Red Dawn on us. That'll be the result of going too far on the "peace dividend" idea. Remeber Grenada? We had people going in with 80-year-old maps and calling back to the states to coordinate ops. That's what we'll be looking at if we cut back too far.

:ohno:
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Re: WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Trut

Post by SeattleGriz »

AZGrizFan wrote:
SeattleGriz wrote:
Want our troops home as well and actually stated that in a different post. Just saying that if we were to have made any headway, we needed to pound them, but that didn't happen. We, as usual fought this war with our arms and a leg tied behind our backs. The USA is and has always been fucked in the sense we are damned if we do, damned if we don't.
The US will never again fight a war like we did WWI or WWII. Ain't gonna happen, no matter how much money we spend on the military. To many politicians making military decisions. We could cut our military to 1/3 it's current size and not lose any real effectiveness.
We should have sent in Obama's Corpse Men - The military of the living dead would have won the Afghan war. :nod:
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Re: WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Trut

Post by AZGrizFan »

SuperHornet wrote:We should have seen this coming. Afghanistan was the Soviets' Vietnam, and there were no indicators going in that it would be any different for us.

AZ: I wouldn't bet on not losing effectiveness while cutting end strength. I grant that we'll probably never pull another D-Day style major amphibious assault. But we've proven time and time again that while air superiority is required to win the day, bombing the crap out of somebody ALONE isn't going to win either. It takes boots on the ground, and lots of them. And it also takes lots of different types of ships to win sea wars. That also takes lots of people, even in this era of so-called "smart" ships that get effectively neutralized if too many people get sick or injured. In addition, with the multiple-deployment scenario we've seen lately, people are coming back not able to adjust to "peace time." If we cut back too far, somebody's going to pull a Red Dawn on us. That'll be the result of going too far on the "peace dividend" idea. Remeber Grenada? We had people going in with 80-year-old maps and calling back to the states to coordinate ops. That's what we'll be looking at if we cut back too far.

:ohno:
That's my point: we don't NEED boots on the ground because we'll never actually USE boots on the ground like they need to be used to actually be effective and not just wasted sacrificial lambs for a political purpose. Ships/drones/planes/missiles...and the people necessary to operate them. THAT'S what we need.
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Re: WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Trut

Post by SuperHornet »

There's a problem with that, AZ. They tried that during the ethnic cleansing in Eastern Europe, and all the other guys did was hide out until the air raids were done. They weren't destroyed, though the land and buildings were. They just came right out and started their isht again. The only way THAT works is to do a ton of collateral killing Hiroshima-style, and no American President is going to pull THAT again.
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Re: WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Trut

Post by YoUDeeMan »

SuperHornet wrote:There's a problem with that, AZ. They tried that during the ethnic cleansing in Eastern Europe, and all the other guys did was hide out until the air raids were done. They weren't destroyed, though the land and buildings were. They just came right out and started their isht again. The only way THAT works is to do a ton of collateral killing Hiroshima-style, and no American President is going to pull THAT again.
Not to get too detailed, but drones can be flown 24 hours so there isn't a "down time" anymore. The new ones can sniff out people in many different ways and they are getting smarter by the minute. The problem is identifying targets...and that doesn't get a whole lot easier by putting uniformed soldiers in harm's way.

Let me know why you think we need troops on the ground for any extended period of time. Has that worked in Afffy? Did it work in Vietnam? Lebanon? Seriously, do you really think the bad guys in Afghanistan aren't there anymore because we placed tens of thousands of troops there? :lol: :rofl:
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Re: WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Trut

Post by kalm »

Cluck U wrote:
SuperHornet wrote:There's a problem with that, AZ. They tried that during the ethnic cleansing in Eastern Europe, and all the other guys did was hide out until the air raids were done. They weren't destroyed, though the land and buildings were. They just came right out and started their isht again. The only way THAT works is to do a ton of collateral killing Hiroshima-style, and no American President is going to pull THAT again.
Not to get too detailed, but drones can be flown 24 hours so there isn't a "down time" anymore. The new ones can sniff out people in many different ways and they are getting smarter by the minute. The problem is identifying targets...and that doesn't get a whole lot easier by putting uniformed soldiers in harm's way.

Let me know why you think we need troops on the ground for any extended period of time. Has that worked in Afffy? Did it work in Vietnam? Lebanon? Seriously, do you really think the bad guys in Afghanistan aren't there anymore because we placed tens of thousands of troops there? :lol: :rofl:
Agree with you almost 100% on all of this but I would add that according to the CIA, the bad guys in Afghanistan (at least the ones we're really after) number in the low 100's anyway.
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Re: WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Trut

Post by YoUDeeMan »

kalm wrote:
Cluck U wrote:Let me know why you think we need troops on the ground for any extended period of time. Has that worked in Afffy? Did it work in Vietnam? Lebanon? Seriously, do you really think the bad guys in Afghanistan aren't there anymore because we placed tens of thousands of troops there? :lol: :rofl:
Agree with you almost 100% on all of this but I would add that according to the CIA, the bad guys in Afghanistan (at least the ones we're really after) number in the low 100's anyway.
I deleted that number out of an earlier post on this thread because it really doesn't mean anything...even if you trust the CIA. 100...200...whatever...and yet we need several division's worth of man to get them. :lol:

And what about 2 months from now...or two years...we'll still be pouring in 100's of millions of dollar to the top dogs to try and stabilize what is basicallly a backwater run by local warlords.

And we'll make up more "enemies" as we go along to justify our actions. :ohno:
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Re: WH Afghanistan Cover Up: Breaking Ranks To Tell The Trut

Post by mainejeff »

Watching CONKS run back and forth between the "WE WANT WAR" and "WE DON'T WANT WAR" buckets is quite amusing........and pathetic. :|

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