RIP Christopher Hitchens

[D1B]

I can't tell if you really mean that or if it's sarcasm. In case it's the latter, why do millions if not billions of people perform acts of kindness and generosity every day?

Oh, I meant it. So why do people perform acts of generosity? Because they are answering some call within them that defies rational explanation.

You wouldn't understand cuz people generally don't like you, but people want others to like them and think well of them. The survival advantages of that aside, people also have to come to grips with mortality and many want to leave a legacy.

Acts of generosity also create a better community. You for instance would not have been able to attend Fordham if some donor did not endow the scholarship fund. An educated community is a more peaceful community. A peaceful community is a healthier community. A healthier community is a happier community. And so on....

None of this requires a god. Especially your dickhead god.

[JoltinJoe]

Why do you even bother? Everyone considers you the board patsy.

Joe, you DO realize though that people are laughing at you, right? We've backed you into a corner and now you're lashing out. Just take your punishment like a man. Better yet, give up.

You **** believe, with all your heart and soul, in nursury rhymes and fairy tales. While everyone else has outgrown that ****, you, Catholic Joe, still feel the need to try to make them make sense, and it's funny.

Who's laughing at who? People are laughing at the ass who cannot debate these things fairly. Seriously, I don't care what unread dopes like you and Cluck think. You betray your ignorance on these subjects in every post.

Meanwhile, guys like me, kalm, YT just try to have a discussion -- even though we don't agree -- and we talk around the empty noisemakers around here.

No one pays any attention to you, so you have to interrupt other people's discussions with your bombastic outbursts.

Why don't stop posting and wait for someone to post on your Mary Raftery thread, or that other timely thread about the Boston Archdiocese sexual abuse scandal.

[JoltinJoe]

Oh, I meant it. So why do people perform acts of generosity? Because they are answering some call within them that defies rational explanation.

You wouldn't understand cuz people generally don't like you, but people want others to like them and think well of them. The survival advantages of that aside, people also have to come to grips with mortality and many want to leave a legacy.

Acts of generosity also create a better community. You for instance would not have been able to attend Fordham if some donor did not endow the scholarship fund. An educated community is a more peaceful community. A peaceful community is a healthier community. A healthier community is a happier community. And so on....

None of this requires a god. Especially your dickhead god.

Oh, the people don't like me line. I have many more genuine friends than you will ever have.

[kalm]

Because several of my neighbors are great friends. It's out of love. I also have a new neighbor who has 3 children, pregnant with another, and who's husband is deployed in Kyrgistan. I respect the **** out of people like that.

That's why.

That's an evasion, not really an answer. Why? Do you do kind things only for friends? I bet you do a lot of kind things for strangers. Why?

I have another neighbor who is an asshole and also happens to be very Christian. I steal his paper and encourage my dogs to crap in his petunias.


(I've already hinted long ago that I believe God to be that good feeling inside. Just don't like all the churchy crap)

[JoltinJoe]

That's an evasion, not really an answer. Why? Do you do kind things only for friends? I bet you do a lot of kind things for strangers. Why?

I have another neighbor who is an ******* and also happens to be very Christian. I steal his paper and encourage my dogs to crap in his petunias.


(I've already hinted long ago that I believe God to be that good feeling inside. Just don't like all the churchy crap)

[D1B]

Because several of my neighbors are great friends. It's out of love. I also have a new neighbor who has 3 children, pregnant with another, and who's husband is deployed in Kyrgistan. I respect the **** out of people like that.

That's why.

That's an evasion, not really an answer. Why? Do you do kind things only for friends? I bet you do a lot of kind things for strangers. Why?

I support hospice because I want a strong palliative org in my community in case I need it. I support an organization that provides job opps for the developmentally disabled. I support them because I love my community and they're a part of it and they need my help. I don't want to live in community that houses these folks in asylums or throws em on the streets to fend for themselves, like the conks would here. I support a battered women's shelter because domestic violence makes my community a shitty place to live and shelters offer the first step in breaking the cycle of domestic violence.

None of this requires god.

[D1B]

Joe, you DO realize though that people are laughing at you, right? We've backed you into a corner and now you're lashing out. Just take your punishment like a man. Better yet, give up.

You **** believe, with all your heart and soul, in nursury rhymes and fairy tales. While everyone else has outgrown that ****, you, Catholic Joe, still feel the need to try to make them make sense, and it's funny.

Who's laughing at who? People are laughing at the ass who cannot debate these things fairly. Seriously, I don't care what unread dopes like you and Cluck think. You betray your ignorance on these subjects in every post.

Meanwhile, guys like me, kalm, YT just try to have a discussion -- even though we don't agree -- and we talk around the empty noisemakers around here.

No one pays any attention to you, so you have to interrupt other people's discussions with your bombastic outbursts.

Why don't stop posting and wait for someone to post on your Mary Raftery thread, or that other timely thread about the Boston Archdiocese sexual abuse scandal.

Yet here we are at page 20...

Glad you read the Mary Raftery thread. Another freethinker who exposed your evil fucking church.

I'm still waiting....

[Vidav]

AZ!!!!! 20 pages. You're welcome.

[youngterrier]

I can't tell if you really mean that or if it's sarcasm. In case it's the latter, why do millions if not billions of people perform acts of kindness and generosity every day?

Oh, I meant it. So why do people perform acts of generosity? Because they are answering some call within them that defies rational explanation.

yeah, it's called emotion. We reproduce because we're biologically called to to preserve our genes. We help our fellow man perhaps because it's a secondary instinct to help our species. Perhaps another example as to how man is more evolved than the rest of the animal kingdom. I know I'm incapable of killing someone in cold blood, not just because it's irrational, but because I couldn't have proper peace of mind, as is most of humanity. That's an explainable phenomenon, so I must assume it's natural. I've alluded to this before, and I really don't care to repeat myself over and over again, just to be told how there are flaws in my arguments without citing such.

[Vidav]

Oh, I meant it. So why do people perform acts of generosity? Because they are answering some call within them that defies rational explanation.

yeah, it's called emotion. We reproduce because we're biologically called to to preserve our genes. We help our fellow man perhaps because it's a secondary instinct to help our species. Perhaps another example as to how man is more evolved than the rest of the animal kingdom. I know I'm incapable of killing someone in cold blood, not just because it's irrational, but because I couldn't have proper peace of mind, as is most of humanity. That's an explainable phenomenon, so I must assume it's natural. I've alluded to this before, and I really don't care to repeat myself over and over again, just to be told how there are flaws in my arguments without citing such.

Joe, just because we can't explain why something happens, or how it happens, that doesn't mean it comes from the supernatural. Just that we can't explain it right now. Maybe one day we will know for certain.

Also YT you have been killing this thread the last couple of pages.

[D1B]

Oh, I meant it. So why do people perform acts of generosity? Because they are answering some call within them that defies rational explanation.

yeah, it's called emotion. We reproduce because we're biologically called to to preserve our genes. We help our fellow man perhaps because it's a secondary instinct to help our species. Perhaps another example as to how man is more evolved than the rest of the animal kingdom. I know I'm incapable of killing someone in cold blood, not just because it's irrational, but because I couldn't have proper peace of mind, as is most of humanity. That's an explainable phenomenon, so I must assume it's natural. I've alluded to this before, and I really don't care to repeat myself over and over again, just to be told how there are flaws in my arguments without citing such.

As soon as Joe snaps one off to:



he'll tell you how wrong you are and that it's nothing theology can't fix.

[D1B]

You wouldn't understand cuz people generally don't like you, but people want others to like them and think well of them. The survival advantages of that aside, people also have to come to grips with mortality and many want to leave a legacy.

Acts of generosity also create a better community. You for instance would not have been able to attend Fordham if some donor did not endow the scholarship fund. An educated community is a more peaceful community. A peaceful community is a healthier community. A healthier community is a happier community. And so on....

None of this requires a god. Especially your dickhead god.

Oh, the people don't like me line. I have many more genuine friends than you will ever have.

Joe, you talking bout these dudes?

[youngterrier]

Why do you do that?

Because several of my neighbors are great friends. It's out of love. I also have a new neighbor who has 3 children, pregnant with another, and who's husband is deployed in Kyrgistan. I respect the shit out of people like that.

That's why.

BOOM. THIS.

Human compassion, coupled with human intelligence, is what sets us apart from animals. Rationality, as stated before is a natural progression of evolution, combined with the biological function of love (it is beyond sexual and is associated with Social behavior) results in the virtue of compassion. Compassion is thus natural for the human race. Now that's not to say every human is compassionate, because we're not on the same level of rationality quite yet. However, rationality is improving in the general populace (and I think there's a correlation with the improvement of not being so barbaric and genocidal in the rational, developed world); We're much more rational than we were in the last 500 years +. It will take time, but immorality will become less common once we become more rational. The vast majority of those commit immoral deeds are irrational in the first place.

I'm not saying Atheism or any moral philosophy is right for the whole population. On the contrary, the world isn't rational enough to accept such concepts quite yet. Religion is good for some and bad for others, but not a necessity for morality if one is rational. Humanity naturally grows more rational as time passes. Metaphorically speaking, why stick to a horse and buggy when you can have a Corvette?

[youngterrier]

Because several of my neighbors are great friends. It's out of love. I also have a new neighbor who has 3 children, pregnant with another, and who's husband is deployed in Kyrgistan. I respect the **** out of people like that.

That's why.

That's an evasion, not really an answer. Why? Do you do kind things only for friends? I bet you do a lot of kind things for strangers. Why?

Compassion and sympathy=love (a natural human emotion) + rationality (the result of human evolution).

[YoUDeeMan]

No, wrong. The Epic of Gilgamesh warned only that if one wrongs another, you can expect that they will wrong you back.

No, wrong.

"love him as you love yourself"
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/serpe ... mesh01.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And Zoroastrianism:

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Makes all the difference.

[JoltinJoe]

Oh, I meant it. So why do people perform acts of generosity? Because they are answering some call within them that defies rational explanation.

yeah, it's called emotion. We reproduce because we're biologically called to to preserve our genes. We help our fellow man perhaps because it's a secondary instinct to help our species. Perhaps another example as to how man is more evolved than the rest of the animal kingdom. I know I'm incapable of killing someone in cold blood, not just because it's irrational, but because I couldn't have proper peace of mind, as is most of humanity. That's an explainable phenomenon, so I must assume it's natural. I've alluded to this before, and I really don't care to repeat myself over and over again, just to be told how there are flaws in my arguments without citing such.

You're confusing me. Is emotion rational?

And what about someone who risks his life to save a stranger? He's not acting charitably to preserve his genes. So how does that fit into your understanding?

How/why is helping our fellow man a "secondary" instinct? And what about those cases when following this "secondary" instinct runs contrary to our primary instinct of preserving our genes (such as risking one's life to save a stranger).

Man and mankind is something more than just the most evolved of species. In explaining away some of the most special complexities of man as functions of biology and his more evolved reasoning, you treat man as simply the smartest of the animals. It is irrational to explain away why a rational creature can act so irrationally charitable by saying that it is a function of his rationality ... indeed, it is a contradiction, thus my claim that you are walking around in circles.

[D1B]

Because several of my neighbors are great friends. It's out of love. I also have a new neighbor who has 3 children, pregnant with another, and who's husband is deployed in Kyrgistan. I respect the shit out of people like that.

That's why.

BOOM. THIS.

Human compassion, coupled with human intelligence, is what sets us apart from animals. Rationality, as stated before is a natural progression of evolution, combined with the biological function of love (it is beyond sexual and is associated with Social behavior) results in the virtue of compassion. Compassion is thus natural for the human race. Now that's not to say every human is compassionate, because we're not on the same level of rationality quite yet. However, rationality is improving in the general populace; We're much more rational than we were in the last 500 years +. It will take time, but immorality will become less common once we become more rational. The vast majority of those commit immoral deeds are irrational in the first place.

Nope YT, a homicidal maniac of a fucking god shits his pants for 4000 years, then concocts a plan to knock up a married virgin who will give birth to himself who will then wander in complete anonymity for 30 years untill all of a sudden people figure out he's the son of god, so they kill him. He wakes up for a brief time and makes an appearance before flying in the sky to heaven, to be with his father, who will fuck you up when you die if you're a dick on earth. "Dick" primarily meaning that you didn't worship them.

Yeah, this is it.

[D1B]

yeah, it's called emotion. We reproduce because we're biologically called to to preserve our genes. We help our fellow man perhaps because it's a secondary instinct to help our species. Perhaps another example as to how man is more evolved than the rest of the animal kingdom. I know I'm incapable of killing someone in cold blood, not just because it's irrational, but because I couldn't have proper peace of mind, as is most of humanity. That's an explainable phenomenon, so I must assume it's natural. I've alluded to this before, and I really don't care to repeat myself over and over again, just to be told how there are flaws in my arguments without citing such.

You're confusing me. Is emotion rational?

And what about someone who risks his life to save a stranger?

He doesn't fully understand the risk.
The stranger is a child or a woman.
He feels great need to be a hero all the time. Hero complex.
He derives perverse satisfaction from being superior to others.
He's a risk taker.
He's employed by a security company or Secret Service to protect someone.
He expects monetary reward or fame as a result of his risk.

[D1B]

Joe, would you risk your life for a stranger?

[JoltinJoe]

yeah, it's called emotion. We reproduce because we're biologically called to to preserve our genes. We help our fellow man perhaps because it's a secondary instinct to help our species. Perhaps another example as to how man is more evolved than the rest of the animal kingdom. I know I'm incapable of killing someone in cold blood, not just because it's irrational, but because I couldn't have proper peace of mind, as is most of humanity. That's an explainable phenomenon, so I must assume it's natural. I've alluded to this before, and I really don't care to repeat myself over and over again, just to be told how there are flaws in my arguments without citing such.

Joe, just because we can't explain why something happens, or how it happens, that doesn't mean it comes from the supernatural. Just that we can't explain it right now. Maybe one day we will know for certain.

Also YT you have been killing this thread the last couple of pages.

I never said just because something defies rational explanation, it means there is a supernatural.

I do believe that the call within us to act charitably has a supernatural source, though. That doesn't mean you have to accept that. However, what I meant to imply is that I don't think you can claim, rationally, that this call is simply a product of mere biology or evolution.

[JoltinJoe]

Joe, would you risk your life for a stranger?

I don't know. I guess I would know at the moment of truth. In scouts one time, I jumped into a lake to help a kid who was apparently submerging. I can't honestly say, though, that I feared for my own life when doing this.

I know some people have done so when faced with this call. I'd like to think I would.

[JoltinJoe]

You're confusing me. Is emotion rational?

And what about someone who risks his life to save a stranger?

He doesn't fully understand the risk.
The stranger is a child or a woman.
He feels great need to be a hero all the time. Hero complex.
He derives perverse satisfaction from being superior to others.
He's a risk taker.
He's employed by a security company or Secret Service to protect someone.
He expects monetary reward or fame as a result of his risk.

I hope you're just playing devil's advocate.

[youngterrier]

yeah, it's called emotion. We reproduce because we're biologically called to to preserve our genes. We help our fellow man perhaps because it's a secondary instinct to help our species. Perhaps another example as to how man is more evolved than the rest of the animal kingdom. I know I'm incapable of killing someone in cold blood, not just because it's irrational, but because I couldn't have proper peace of mind, as is most of humanity. That's an explainable phenomenon, so I must assume it's natural. I've alluded to this before, and I really don't care to repeat myself over and over again, just to be told how there are flaws in my arguments without citing such.

You're confusing me. Is emotion rational?
emotions are natural states of mind. They express our reactions to events that aid or go against our interests (such as happiness or sadness), they also serve as a tool to which we can fulfill our genetic programming of thriving or reproducing (such as love to gain friends socially or to reproduce sexually). The rationality of emotions are irrelevant. Humanity has developed rationality as a result of evolution. Humans use their rationality as well as their emotions, often a combination of both to make decisions in every day life. Moral behavior is rational because ones emotions still impacts ones peace of mind. Emotionally, we feel sorry for those who are poor as a result of our compassion, sympathy and love. The rational thing to do would be to help them.
And what about someone who risks his life to save a stranger? He's not acting charitably to preserve his genes. So how does that fit into your understanding?
As a society we cherish one who is self-sacrificial. No one blames the people who don't risk their lives to save others. So is not doing something that could risk ones life to save another immoral? Honestly, it comes down to the individual. Some people are that way by instinct, some aren't. Society praises those who do put themselves in harms way because those actions help society and as a collective we appreciate that. One who risks himself, is doing what's good for society through another human being and is thus being moral still. I believe this instinct to help another is natural in humans because of our rationality coupled with our desire to survive. It's like a secondary impulse to preserve our species as well as ourselves
How/why is helping our fellow man a "secondary" instinct? And what about those cases when following this "secondary" instinct runs contrary to our primary instinct of preserving our genes (such as risking one's life to save a stranger).
As I've said, humans are rational creatures, and thus they understand that helping others in turn helps themselves. Helping our fellow man is becoming secondary because of this understanding. Other creatures don't comprehend it, thus they don't possess it. Rationality is a BIG DEAL in this. It's becoming a secondary nature, because rationality is becoming a PRIMARY nature as we evolve, just as emotion, and using them together, one can only conclude that helping others helps one's self. The understanding becomes primary, thus the desire becomes primary.
Man and mankind is something more than just the most evolved of species. In explaining away some of the most special complexities of man as functions of biology and his more evolved reasoning, you treat man as simply the smartest of the animals. It is irrational to explain away why a rational creature can act so irrationally charitable by saying that it is a function of his rationality ... indeed, it is a contradiction, thus my claim that you are walking around in circles.

I never said humanity was perfect, rather that he possesses rationality. Not everyone is as rational as the next, and I've said as much. As man becomes more rational he becomes more moral, and we're perfect. We're at the midpoint. As we grow intellectually, so does the rest of the population. We're more moral than we were 1000 years ago. There's less slavery, bigotry, homophobia, etc. and that's a result of our using rationality. One being "irrationally charitable" as you put it, is not a display of irrationality, it's a display of one's rationality that the world is bigger than one's self, thus one must do all they can to help the human race, not just themselves. It's just a sign that the world is becoming rational and less emotion. We're becoming more collective out of natural evolution and the desire to grow, expanding beyond our personal desires and to a more collective will. You can call that a contradiction, but I call that a change in perspective, which often happens when one becomes more rational. It's only natural

[D1B]

Joe, would you risk your life for a stranger?

I don't know. I guess I would know at the moment of truth. In scouts one time, I jumped into a lake to help a kid who was apparently submerging. I can't honestly say, though, that I feared for my own life when doing this.

I know some people have done so when faced with this call. I'd like to think I would.

I don't think you would. You love your wife and children too much to risk your life. They are the only people you'll risk your life for. Doesn't make you a bad person.

Most people wouldn't either. Those that would are rare and single with no kids, Type T.

[YoUDeeMan]

Who's laughing at who? People are laughing at the ass who cannot debate these things fairly. Seriously, I don't care what unread dopes like you and Cluck think. You betray your ignorance on these subjects in every post.

Interesting that you believe I'm, "unread".

I'll admit, I haven't delved much into the writings of the Church of Latter Day Saints and don't have specifics about intergalactic spaceships and the planet Zoltan, but I'd be willing to bet that Tom Cruise and the rest of those "well read" zealots would, when pressed on the wild inconsistencies of their beliefs, fall back on defenses similar to yours...that I'm just an "unread dope".

Yes, you deserved that reply.

I asked the question about the priests because it is an important one. Not in the shallow D1B “gotcha” way…but as a way to build an understanding of your grasp of what it takes to be a Christian and what you believe is God’s ultimate goal for humans and humanity. Sure, the question about pedophile priests was direct – and certainly a topic you’ve avoided consistently on here, and at first it might seem a bit off topic, but it really isn’t. The Catholic Church is losing the race for American souls…mainly because they’ve seemingly always taken the attitude that the populace isn’t smart enough (unread, if you will...and for centuries that was actually true) to understand God so it is best if we leave it up to the church leaders to work it all out for them. And the question’s answer will help me understand why you dismiss any Christian’s “individual” actions as representative of Christianity when it is convenient for you and yet you hold up individual psychopaths as the end game for any differing philosophy or governance.

I believe that your approach is dishonest, so I am going to try to figure out where we differ. And that journey all starts with a simple question…are the pedophile priests Christians?

Ignore the troll, he has a different agenda. But please answer the question. And be patient…it could be a long road but I promise from here on to keep it on the up and up.