Alright, kalm and IvyTalk...

[kalm]

Well gersh, feel free to dump away then.

Think about how many dead animal carcasses end up in any watershed even under circumstances completely devoid of human activity. Think about how much animal fecal waste goes into any watershed. People contain their wastes. Animals don't. Every bird you see, every squirrel, every rat, every dog, every cat, every coyote, etc., is a source of fecal waste. Then there are all the cold blooded animals, including fish, that carry Salmonella as well as other things.

The idea that stopping butchers from having businesses north or New Orleans significantly decreased the disease hazard is ridiculous.

Concentration.

[Baldy]

Just one more absurd analogy, and I won't continue my patient tutorial of such an obstinate student. Political speech is facilitated by money, and you know it. This is degenerating into just the sort of exchange that I predicted, and this will be my last post in the thread until I can get back and fact-check the HuffPo piece. Actually, JoltinJoe is a fine student of the Constitution, and he may have a ready response.

Does the constitution use the term "legal persons"?

Good question, does it use the term "abortion", also?

[kalm]

Does the constitution use the term "legal persons"?

Good question, does it use the term "abortion", also?

No, nor does it use the term corporation. But it does mention "people" in the first three words of the preamble, and I think it also talks about "nature's god" somewhere in there.

[OL FU]

"I refuse to believe that corporations are people until Texas executes one."


That was a good one

The state can "kill" a corporation by voiding its charter if it doesn't pay its annual franchise tax.

Gosh Golly Geepers and will immediately re-instate upon payment brought back to life so to speak.

[Baldy]

Good question, does it use the term "abortion", also?

No, nor does it use the term corporation. But it does mention "people" in the first three words of the preamble, and I think it also talks about "nature's god" somewhere in there.

OK...

[kalm]

No, nor does it use the term corporation. But it does mention "people" in the first three words of the preamble, and I think it also talks about "nature's god" somewhere in there.

OK...

Just trying to help you out.

[Baldy]

OK...

Just trying to help you out.

Ummm no thanks, I'm good.

But, if I need my lawn cut sometime, I'll let you know.

[kalm]

Just trying to help you out.

Ummm no thanks, I'm good.

But, if I need my lawn cut sometime, I'll let you know.

Call Bandl, he's closer.

[JohnStOnge]

Nobody challenged when I wrote that there's no way dumping non-human animal entrails into a water shed would cause Cholera outbreaks but I like to be able to back up what I write with references so here goes:

The reference is from this site:

http://www.itg.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is a link to a distance learning page on reservoirs in a section on Cholera:

http://www.itg.be/itg/distancelearning/ ... lerap5.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The first sentence is:

"Humans are the only vertebrate hosts."

There are also environmental Cholera, including non 01 strains, that are just out there in the environment. There have been periodic outbreaks of Cholera in Louisiana due to people mishandling seafood. One instance I remember involved people having a shrimp boil. Cholera likes chitin so it is associated with crustaceans. People boiled the shrimp. They rinsed out the ice chests the shrimp had been in and when they finished boiling the shrimp they put them back in those ice chests to keep them warm. Well, there were apparently Cholera organisms still in the ice chests and they got set up with a nice incubator (warm) and plenty of nutrients (shrimp). Lots of vomiting and such among shrimp boil attendees.

If there were Cholera outbreaks going on in South Louisiana at the time described by the author of the article we're talking about there's a good chance it was that sort of thing. Also could have been epidemic cholera from human sewage but I think that was probably less likely.

[kalm]

Nobody challenged when I wrote that there's no way dumping non-human animal entrails into a water shed would cause Cholera outbreaks but I like to be able to back up what I write with references so here goes:

The reference is from this site:

http://www.itg.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is a link to a distance learning page on reservoirs in a section on Cholera:

http://www.itg.be/itg/distancelearning/ ... lerap5.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The first sentence is:

"Humans are the only vertebrate hosts."

There are also environmental Cholera, including non 01 strains, that are just out there in the environment. There have been periodic outbreaks of Cholera in Louisiana due to people mishandling seafood. One instance I remember involved people having a shrimp boil. Cholera likes chitin so it is associated with crustaceans. People boiled the shrimp. They rinsed out the ice chests the shrimp had been in and when they finished boiling the shrimp they put them back in those ice chests to keep them warm. Well, there were apparently Cholera organisms still in the ice chests and they got set up with a nice incubator (warm) and plenty of nutrients (shrimp). Lots of vomiting and such among shrimp boil attendees.

If there were Cholera outbreaks going in in South Louisiana at the time described by the author of the article we're talking about there's a good chance it was that sort of thing. Also could have been epidemic cholera from human sewage but I think that was probably less likely.

You must have me on ignore.

Maybe it was a mis-diagnosis. Maybe that got sick cause there a bunch of pig floaters hanging out in their water supply.

[JohnStOnge]

You must have me on ignore.

Maybe it was a mis-diagnosis. Maybe that got sick cause there a bunch of pig floaters hanging out in their water supply

I didn't read anything you wrote as challenging my assertion that you're not going to get Cholera outbreaks from butchers dumping animal wastes into the watershed.

It's possible it was misdiagnosis; especially back then. But I don't think stopping that one practice would cut the risk of disease perceptably. There are a lot more human diseases that can be transmitted by human waste than there are than can be transmitted by animal waste. Not that there aren't some that can be transmitted by animal waste. We hear about the E. coli O157 outbreaks from meat and produce and we hear about Cryptosporidium outbreaks from water supplies. Those are zoonosis.

But the reason I said that it's not likely that making butchers dump to the south perceptably reduced the disease risk is that, as I said, animal wastes are all over the place and making the butchers dump to the South didn't substantially impact that. If pigs were carrying something there were still a bunch of pigs crapping in the watershed while they were alive and their wastes were being carried into the system when it rained. No, they weren't crapping directly into the water but at any given time there were probably a whole bunch more living pigs crapping in the watershed than there were dead pigs having their leftovers dumped into the water. I think that it is very likely that if populations of pigs (for instance) were serving as reservoirs for some disease you would not have seen the cases stop just because butchers had to dump to the South. The population of pigs would still have been introducing whatever organism was involved into the watershed to the north.

[JohnStOnge]

I know we're just talking about one small aspect of the subject article but I look at it as creating a false impression in order to embellish the overall point. Think about what things were like in 1873. There waas no sewage treatment as we know it. The first biological treatment in the United States went on line in Massachusettes in 1887. Lots of human sewage was being disposed of directly into surface waters. There were a bunch of domestic animals crapping on the surface with materials from those wastes being carried into the watershed when it rained. There were numerous wild animals being attracted to surface waters and crapping both into and immediately adjacent to them. Livestock don't even carry Cholera.

Yet this guy writes "The Court upheld the law, and the city's pattern of repeated cholera outbreaks stopped cold.," He basically said that the Judge he was talking about voted to put people at risk of Cholera outbreaks. It's appealing to emotion and it's appealing to emotion with a false implication.

Maybe he didn't do it intentionally. Chances are it's something he heard somewhere else. But to suggest that dumping butcher shop wastes North of New Orleans was THE problem behind disease outbreaks during an era in which most or all of the population of New Orleans itself was piping raw human sewage into the water is pretty ridiculous.

[kalm]

You must have me on ignore.

Maybe it was a mis-diagnosis. Maybe that got sick cause there a bunch of pig floaters hanging out in their water supply

I didn't read anything you wrote as challenging my assertion that you're not going to get Cholera outbreaks from butchers dumping animal wastes into the watershed.

It's possible it was misdiagnosis; especially back then. But I don't think stopping that one practice would cut the risk of disease perceptably. There are a lot more human diseases that can be transmitted by human waste than there are than can be transmitted by animal waste. Not that there aren't some that can be transmitted by animal waste. We hear about the E. coli O157 outbreaks from meat and produce and we hear about Cryptosporidium outbreaks from water supplies. Those are zoonosis.

But the reason I said that it's not likely that making butchers dump to the south perceptably reduced the disease risk is that, as I said, animal wastes are all over the place and making the butchers dump to the South didn't substantially impact that. If pigs were carrying something there were still a bunch of pigs crapping in the watershed while they were alive and their wastes were being carried into the system when it rained. No, they weren't crapping directly into the water but at any given time there were probably a whole bunch more living pigs crapping in the watershed than there were dead pigs having their leftovers dumped into the water. I think that it is very likely that if populations of pigs (for instance) were serving as reservoirs for some disease you would not have seen the cases stop just because butchers had to dump to the South. The population of pigs would still have been introducing whatever organism was involved into the watershed to the north.

Concentration

[native]

The state can "kill" a corporation by voiding its charter if it doesn't pay its annual franchise tax.

And how often does that happen?

Often. Go to any seceretary of state web site and look at all the dead corporations.

Why are you so anxious to hate some boogey man, K?

Getting rid of corporations will not make your life better.