Capital Punishment

[TwinTownBisonFan]

We would also undermine - significantly, public faith in our justice system.

Not sure how it can go much lower.

disappointing acquittals and the like frustrate people. innocent people by the scores being put to death is the stuff revolutions are made of. we aren't there yet.

[BlueHen86]

Wow, talk about faulty logic. Early parole and capital punishment are related how?

Cluck makes a point.

If, for example, we execute ten people and one of them is innocent, we have killed one innocent person.

If we instead let ten murderers out on parole and two of them killed innocent people, we would have killed two or more innocent people.

We shouldn't be letting violent criminals out. See my post earler in this thread regarding a guy whose death sentence was commuted and then got parole.

Lock people up with no chance of parole. Life means life, not 20 years, 15 if you behave.

[Cap'n Cat]

In decidedly good company, huh, guys?



Death Penalty Permitted

•Afghanistan
•Antigua and Barbuda
•Bahamas
•Bahrain
•Bangladesh
•Barbados
•Belarus
•Belize
•Botswana
•Burundi
•Cameroon
•Chad
•China (People's Republic)
•Comoros
•Congo (Democratic Republic)
•Cuba
•Dominica
•Egypt
•Equatorial Guinea
•Eritrea
•Ethiopia
•Gabon
•Ghana
•Guatemala
•Guinea
•Guyana
•India
•Indonesia
•Iran
•Iraq
•Jamaica
•Japan
•Jordan
•Korea, North
•Korea, South
•Kuwait
•Laos
•Lebanon
•Lesotho
•Libya
•Malawi
•Malaysia
•Mongolia
•Nigeria
•Oman
•Pakistan
•Palestinian Authority
•Qatar
•St. Kitts and Nevis
•St. Lucia
•St. Vincent and the Grenadines
•Saudi Arabia
•Sierra Leone
•Singapore
•Somalia
•Sudan
•Swaziland
•Syria
•Taiwan
•Tajikistan
•Tanzania
•Thailand
•Trinidad and Tobago
•Uganda
•United Arab Emirates
•United States
•Vietnam
•Yemen
•Zambia
•Zimbabwe



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[JohnStOnge]

In decidedly good company, huh, guys?

I don't think we should make our decisions based on what other countries do or don't do. One thing I REALLY don't think we should do is look at European nations as models for the way we should do things.

If the death penalty were implemented so that it had a chance to constitute a reasonable deterrent there would be a very rational argument for it. Then one could say that the benefit of reduction in the probability of being a victim of a capital crime would outweigh risk of being falsely convicted and executed. Your overall risk of something "bad" happening to you would be reduced.

But the death penalty is not implemented in a manner that would allow it a chance to constitute a reasonable deterrent. It's pretty obvious when one looks at the number of murders each year in the United States and the number of executions that if someone commits a murder the probability of them being executed for it is very small. Most people might not think about it mathematically but most people, I think, do realize that that's the general situation.

In order to really test the question of whether or not the death penalty provides deterrent we'd have to execute everybody convicted of a capital crime and cut down on all of the appeals, etc. We'd have to create the impression that if you murder somebody there is a realistic chance that you are going to be executed relatively quickly.

Of course that would also increase the probability of innocent people being executed. But I think you would still probably end up with a situation in which what is lost in terms of increase in the probability of people being falsely convicted and executed would be outweighed by of reduction in probability of becoming a victim of a capital crime.

We can't know because we're not going to implement the death penalty in that way. We're not going to do it in a way that gives it a chance to serve as a deterrent. Meanwhile we know we do convict innocent people. And we really don't know how often that happens. What we confirm in that regard could be just the tip of the iceberg.

So we've got the downside but no chance at the potential upside.

[BlueHen86]

In decidedly good company, huh, guys?

I don't think we should make our decisions based on what other countries do or don't do. One thing I REALLY don't think we should do is look at European nations as models for the way we should do things.

If the death penalty were implemented so that it had a chance to constitute a reasonable deterrent there would be a very rational argument for it. Then one could say that the benefit of reduction in the probability of being a victim of a capital crime would outweigh risk of being falsely convicted and executed. Your overall risk of something "bad" happening to you would be reduced.

But the death penalty is not implemented in a manner that would allow it a chance to constitute a reasonable deterrent. It's pretty obvious when one looks at the number of murders each year in the United States and the number of executions that if someone commits a murder the probability of them being executed for it is very small. Most people might not think about it mathematically but most people, I think, do realize that that's the general situation.

In order to really test the question of whether or not the death penalty provides deterrent we'd have to execute everybody convicted of a capital crime and cut down on all of the appeals, etc. We'd have to create the impression that if you murder somebody there is a realistic chance that you are going to be executed relatively quickly.

Of course that would also increase the probability of innocent people being executed. But I think you would still probably end up with a situation in which what is lost in terms of increase in the probability of people being falsely convicted and executed would be outweighed by of reduction in probability of becoming a victim of a capital crime.

We can't know because we're not going to implement the death penalty in that way. We're not going to do it in a way that gives it a chance to serve as a deterrent. Meanwhile we know we do convict innocent people. And we really don't know how often that happens. What we confirm in that regard could be just the tip of the iceberg.

So we've got the downside but no chance at the potential upside.

One thing I REALLY don't think we should do is look at your suggestions as models for the way we should do things.

[YoUDeeMan]

More to the point - that's all easy to say in abstraction - until the one falsely accused is you or someone you care about.

Ahh...caring about innocent lives is so cute.

Please explain to me how you and others support Obama's decision to bomb Quadaffi, to increase our troops in Afghanistan, to stay in Iraq.

After all, innocent civilians are gettting killed, they just aren't you or anyone you care about.

Face it, you, and most others, conveniently employ situational ethics.

As far as keeping people in jail for life, those monies could be better spent helping some innocent people get over the hump. Plenty of studies out there that show that spending millions on those who need a hand can prevent people from choosing a life of crime and violence.

Instead, you want to give murderers and rapists a bed and a long lifetime of meals and cable TV.

[native]

More to the point - that's all easy to say in abstraction - until the one falsely accused is you or someone you care about.

Ahh...caring about innocent lives is so cute.

Please explain to me how you and others support Obama's decision to bomb Quadaffi, to increase our troops in Afghanistan, to stay in Iraq.

After all, innocent civilians are gettting killed, they just aren't you or anyone you care about.

Face it, you, and most others, conveniently employ situational ethics.

As far as keeping people in jail for life, those monies could be better spent helping some innocent people get over the hump. Plenty of studies out there that show that spending millions on those who need a hand can prevent people from choosing a life of crime and violence.

Instead, you want to give murderers and rapists a bed and a long lifetime of meals and cable TV.

Well said, CLuck!

[89Hen]

Wow, talk about faulty logic. Early parole and capital punishment are related how?

Cluck makes a point.

If, for example, we execute ten people and one of them is innocent, we have killed one innocent person.

If we instead let ten murderers out on parole and two of them killed innocent people, we would have killed two or more innocent people.

What do the two have to do with each other? Why do we have to let any murderers out? You don't have to execute somebody to prevent them from getting out of prison.

[native]

Cluck makes a point.

If, for example, we execute ten people and one of them is innocent, we have killed one innocent person.

If we instead let ten murderers out on parole and two of them killed innocent people, we would have killed two or more innocent people.

What do the two have to do with each other? Why do we have to let any murderers out? You don't have to execute somebody to prevent them from getting out of prison.

Agree with you that we could have more effective policies, but Cluck's point was about what we actually do. He is not barking at the moon. Like it or not, there is a correlation.

[YoUDeeMan]

More to the point - that's all easy to say in abstraction - until the one falsely accused is you or someone you care about.

Ahh...caring about innocent lives is so cute.

Please explain to me how you and others support Obama's decision to bomb Quadaffi, to increase our troops in Afghanistan, to stay in Iraq.

After all, innocent civilians are gettting killed, they just aren't you or anyone you care about.

Face it, you, and most others, conveniently employ situational ethics.

As far as keeping people in jail for life, those monies could be better spent helping some innocent people get over the hump. Plenty of studies out there that show that spending millions on those who need a hand can prevent people from choosing a life of crime and violence.

Instead, you want to give murderers and rapists a bed and a long lifetime of meals and cable TV.

Crickets.

[YoUDeeMan]

Agree with you that we could have more effective policies, but Cluck's point was about what we actually do. He is not barking at the moon. Like it or not, there is a correlation.

Funny how pro-life people want to say how expensive it is to execute people, but they don't want to discuss parole. Fix one, but let the other be an example of why your argument is correct.

Face it, how many times do rapists get life in prison...even if it were a violent rape? How many times do child molesters get life in prison...only to have them get out and do their thing again? But don't worry about the next victim...odds are it won't be someone you know or care about.

Oh, but let's put them in prison for life. Really? With prisons overcrowding we need more people locked up until they die of natural causes? But, what if their lifespans are shorter than a lifespan outside the prison walls? Putting them in prison is cutting short their lives by several years...a conscious decision to end a life early.

Oooops!

Furthermore, these folks often need to be put into isolation to protect them from other prisoners. Much more expensive than your average prisoner...so much for executions are more expensive. But hey, let's not spare any expense for these creeps...they deserve our compassion. WTF?

[JohnStOnge]

Ahh...caring about innocent lives is so cute.

Please explain to me how you and others support Obama's decision to bomb Quadaffi, to increase our troops in Afghanistan, to stay in Iraq.

After all, innocent civilians are gettting killed, they just aren't you or anyone you care about.

Face it, you, and most others, conveniently employ situational ethics.

I think that it's good to draw a distinction between what happens within a society and warfare. Surely everyone agrees that there are just wars and that there are circumstances in which the death of innocent civilians cannot be avoided if a just war is to be won.

But, within a given culture, there is a problem if people are being falsely convicted of crimes and being executed. I don't see how anyone can disagree with that.

I know a lot of people like to say we have the best court system in the world. What is the basis for saying that? Really. Do any of us have something we can point to to indicate the proportion of instances in which our justice system gets it right? I don't think so.

It's just something that is said with absolutely no basis behind it.

[YoUDeeMan]

Ahh...caring about innocent lives is so cute.

Please explain to me how you and others support Obama's decision to bomb Quadaffi, to increase our troops in Afghanistan, to stay in Iraq.

After all, innocent civilians are gettting killed, they just aren't you or anyone you care about.

Face it, you, and most others, conveniently employ situational ethics.

I think that it's good to draw a distinction between what happens within a society and warfare. Surely everyone agrees that there are just wars and that there are circumstances in which the death of innocent civilians cannot be avoided if a just war is to be won.

But, within a given culture, there is a problem if people are being falsely convicted of crimes and being executed. I don't see how anyone can disagree with that.

I know a lot of people like to say we have the best court system in the world. What is the basis for saying that? Really. Do any of us have something we can point to to indicate the proportion of instances in which our justice system gets it right? I don't think so.

It's just something that is said with absolutely no basis behind it.

Life in prison is so much better. After all, taking an innocent father and locking him up in a maximum security prison for life...away from his 4 year old son and 5 year old daughter, is OK. The family will probably grow up without any problems.

If you don't believe in our justice system, then let them all go free and we can revert back to the wild west.

[Cap'n Cat]

Her body, her choice. Forcing a pregnancy leads to police state sh*t no one on here would like. Registering pregnancies, monthly viable pregnancy "inspections and verification", grand jury investigations of miscarriages. Want your gals to go through that? Do you want to go through it?

Only if they are black, I imagine, Conks. Eh?

[ASUG8]

Her body, her choice. Forcing a pregnancy leads to police state sh*t no one on here would like. Registering pregnancies, monthly viable pregnancy "inspections and verification", grand jury investigations of miscarriages. Want your gals to go through that? Do you want to go through it?

Only if they are black, I imagine, Conks. Eh?

If you can afford a bunch of kids and don't mind using your uterus like a clown car, by all means go ahead. Some take "go forth and multiply" as a personal mission, but that's another thread.

[Cap'n Cat]

"There is no heartbeat, Mrs. Darnu. I'm sorry, but according to the law, I'm going to have to report this to the Delaware Concerned Catholics Citizens for further action. May God help you".

[BlueHen86]

I think that it's good to draw a distinction between what happens within a society and warfare. Surely everyone agrees that there are just wars and that there are circumstances in which the death of innocent civilians cannot be avoided if a just war is to be won.

But, within a given culture, there is a problem if people are being falsely convicted of crimes and being executed. I don't see how anyone can disagree with that.

I know a lot of people like to say we have the best court system in the world. What is the basis for saying that? Really. Do any of us have something we can point to to indicate the proportion of instances in which our justice system gets it right? I don't think so.

It's just something that is said with absolutely no basis behind it.

Life in prison is so much better. After all, taking an innocent father and locking him up in a maximum security prison for life...away from his 4 year old son and 5 year old daughter, is OK. The family will probably grow up without any problems.

If you don't believe in our justice system, then let them all go free and we can revert back to the wild west.

And killing him is better how?

If you lock up an innocent man for life be can still be vindicated and freed. Look up the work being done by The Innocence Project. If you execute him it's game over.

We don't have to scrap our justice system, we just have to recognize that it is not perfect and try to make it better. If it's you or a loved one that is imprisoned, I doubt if you'd still be so anxious for the death penalty.

[kalm]

Ahh...caring about innocent lives is so cute.

Please explain to me how you and others support Obama's decision to bomb Quadaffi, to increase our troops in Afghanistan, to stay in Iraq.

After all, innocent civilians are gettting killed, they just aren't you or anyone you care about.

Face it, you, and most others, conveniently employ situational ethics.

As far as keeping people in jail for life, those monies could be better spent helping some innocent people get over the hump. Plenty of studies out there that show that spending millions on those who need a hand can prevent people from choosing a life of crime and violence.

Instead, you want to give murderers and rapists a bed and a long lifetime of meals and cable TV.

Well said, CLuck!

I think Cluck's point cuts in all directions. He's the consistency Nazi.

[89Hen]

I think Cluck's point cuts in all directions. He's the consistency Nazi.

I think Cluck's points go in all directions. Ask about capital punishment and we get questions on early parole and war.