The Problem with Wind Power

[andy7171]

Correct me if I am wrong but from this map one thing stands out. The sheer awesomeness of Northwestern Iowa actually slows the wind down to almost a stop going due east and a damned fine job heading south east too.

[LeadBolt]

The energy problem is so large that no solutions can be ruled out at this time. WInd is certainly a portion of the equation, along with bio-fuels, hydro, nat. gas, oil, coal, nuclear, solar, etc. Each and every one of these sources has pluses and minuses. In addition we need to research new and innovative ways to both generate energy and conserve it.

Unfortunately, the problem is so large that it is hard to get your head around the whole thing so that we all tend to gravitate to our own pet solutions and get stuck there, much like the compost guys, and then we politicize it, making it even harder to deal with.

The unrest around the world points to our need to become energy self-sufficent and to do so as quickly as is possible, which unfortunately is a long way off at best. If we are to maintain our standard of living, we need to continue to produce wealth. To produce wealth requires energy being available at a reasonable cost, both in economic and environmental terms. We can not pretend that business as normal will get us anywhere.

We need to accept the challenge to engineer as clean and safe solutions as we can, knowing that there will be negative impacts from all solutions, go ahead and bite the bullet and move ahead on all fronts.

Where is Admiral Farragut when you need him?

This is quite possible the most perfect political post ever. It gives a good and warm and fuzzy message, is really long so it makes you feel like something is being answered, but answers nothing and doesn't address anything specifically. Raises problems and says you fix it, but at least I'm making you feel good about making you fix it for me.

The main message is to stop opposing solutions that are available today looking for the perfect one. We have enough resources to be energy independent, but not if we can't mine and burn coal, drill for nat. gas and oil, flood land for hydro, despoil the landscape with windmills, take up large amounts of space with solar panels, permit nuclear power plants, etc. We need to analyze the true costs, both economically and environmentally and move ahead with the least amount of emotion that we can muster. As an example, oil production in the US has not fallen 40% from its peak because we are out of oil, but rather because we are not willing to drill where it is located, after we gathered in the low hanging fruit.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Correct me if I am wrong but from this map one thing stands out. The sheer awesomeness of Northwestern Iowa actually slows the wind down to almost a stop going due east and a damned fine job heading south east too.

compared to nodakistan... iowa has a pittance of the potential... the hot pink areas would be green in hi5's map

[ASUG8]

Correct me if I am wrong but from this map one thing stands out. The sheer awesomeness of Northwestern Iowa actually slows the wind down to almost a stop going due east and a damned fine job heading south east too.

The high silo concentration in central IA serves as a manmade buffer to east and southbound wind, dummy.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

sodakistan

[bandl]

Correct me if I am wrong but from this map one thing stands out. The sheer awesomeness of Northwestern Iowa actually slows the wind down to almost a stop going due east and a damned fine job heading south east too.

compared to nodakistan... iowa has a pittance of the potential... the hot pink areas would be green in hi5's map

That place is fucking.......bright. Turn it off!

[Thumper 76]

sodakistan

Dis cuz we da bomb diggity yo. Brookings has a bunch of windmills right on the border of SD and MN, and more somewhere else in the state I think.

[andy7171]

sodakistan

WTF is going on just West of Rapid City!?!

[Thumper 76]

sodakistan

WTF is going on just West of Rapid City!?!

The Black Hills

[TwinTownBisonFan]

sodakistan

WTF is going on just West of Rapid City!?!

the black hills me boy... chinook winds... it's windy as shit there (was in spearfish for a wedding in july... holy crap - and that was a "calm" day)

[TwinTownBisonFan]

sodakistan

Dis cuz we da bomb diggity yo. Brookings has a bunch of windmills right on the border of SD and MN, and more somewhere else in the state I think.

only problem is... transmission... the wind corridors are hundreds of miles from the customers...

[bandl]

[quote="TwinTownBisonFan"][quote="andy7171"][quote="TwinTownBisonFan"]sodakistan [img]http://www.windpoweringamerica.gov/imag ... 0m_800.jpg[/img]

[/quote]
WTF is going on just West of Rapid City!?![/quote]

the black hills me boy... chinook winds... it's windy as shit there (was in spearfish for a wedding in july... holy crap - and that was a "calm" day)[/quote]

Why are the blacks in those hills so much gasier than the blacks in Anacostia? Explain that Mr. Sexist Racist!

EDIT: And holy fuck, what happened to the quote?? Fuck this place, CS sucks, I'm outta here.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

the black hills me boy... chinook winds... it's windy as shit there (was in spearfish for a wedding in july... holy crap - and that was a "calm" day)

Why are the blacks in those hills so much gasier than the blacks in Anacostia? Explain that Mr. Sexist Racist!

EDIT: And holy fuck, what happened to the quote?? Fuck this place, CS sucks, I'm outta here.

bandl thinks there's black people in the dakotas...

[Thumper 76]

Why are the blacks in those hills so much gasier than the blacks in Anacostia? Explain that Mr. Sexist Racist!

EDIT: And holy fuck, what happened to the quote?? Fuck this place, CS sucks, I'm outta here.

bandl thinks there's black people in the dakotas...

Hes never seen our football or basketball teams has he? I saw 20 black ppl once in Brookings, it was after the Nelly concert we had, but I'm pretty sure they came up from Souix Falls

[HI54UNI]

Dis cuz we da bomb diggity yo. Brookings has a bunch of windmills right on the border of SD and MN, and more somewhere else in the state I think.

only problem is... transmission... the wind corridors are hundreds of miles from the customers...

Huge problem with an even bigger price tag.

[HI54UNI]

it'll never replace entirely the need for large generators......

Maybe HI54UNI can straighten me out on this, but I don’t think that wind will replace any appreciable generating capacity. HI54UNI’s plot shows monthly averages but on days when the wind doesn’t blow the load is still there and must be generated using conventional methods.

I posted this a back in Aug.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=17188&p=331094&hil ... ve#p331094" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HI54UNI a couple of questions:

What is the price structure for your wind power purchases relative to other sources?

How do you guys or your grid operator (if you are not a grid operator) manage your spinning reserves relative to wind power purchases?

When purchasing wind power do you pay for the wind and then have to add additional spinning reserve, and if so, who pays for that?

BTW good post.

WInd is never going to replace any generating capacity until some kind of storage system is developed. Otherwise it is too unreliable.

Pricing for our current wind farms is about 20% more than pricing for our coal plants. That's factoring an all in cost (capacity and energy). Energy only is about double that of coal. The 3 wind farms are all some of the earlier ones installed in Iowa so the cost is pretty reasonable. We've been looking at some additional wind for the last 3 years. The economic meltdown has made a huge change in prices. 3 years ago we were ready to make a purchase and the developer's financing fell apart so we didn't buy. The demand has gone down so much that we are looking at a project now that is 25% less cost than it was 3 years ago. The new pricing is about 50% higher than our current wind farms and 3 times greater than our current coal. All wind contracts are take or pay so if the wind is really blowing at night when we don't have as much demand we have to back our other plants down or if the price is high enough we sell our surplus into the market.

The grid operator manages the spinning reserve. We are fortunate to be in a control area with a fair amount of hydro so that is used as the spinning reserve. We pay a fee for spinning reserves to cover all of our resources. The wind wind developer doesn't pay it. I know in the adjoining control area they are keeping gas turbines spinning on idle for the spinning reserve. Our fee is less because they can use the hydro and don't have to burn natural gas to back the wind up. The wind developers don't pay anything in the adjoining area either.

[HI54UNI]

Correct me if I am wrong but from this map one thing stands out. The sheer awesomeness of Northwestern Iowa actually slows the wind down to almost a stop going due east and a damned fine job heading south east too.

That's why Clenz and I are so hardy. We're both from NW Iowa.

[bandl]

Correct me if I am wrong but from this map one thing stands out. The sheer awesomeness of Northwestern Iowa actually slows the wind down to almost a stop going due east and a damned fine job heading south east too.

That's why Clenz and I are so hardy. We're both from NW Iowa.

clenz takes meds...

whomp whomp whoooooomp............

[bandl]

Why are the blacks in those hills so much gasier than the blacks in Anacostia? Explain that Mr. Sexist Racist!

EDIT: And holy fuck, what happened to the quote?? Fuck this place, CS sucks, I'm outta here.

bandl thinks there's black people in the dakotas...

why call it black hills if there aren't black people living there? That's absurd and pretty racist.

[HI54UNI]

One other thing that people don't realize - just because a wind turbine is spinning doesn't mean it is producing at it's full nameplate rating. On most large turbines the wind needs to be blowing 25-30 mph to get the full output.

This is the output curve for a 2.5 MW GE turbine. 1 meter per second = about 2.2 mph. You can see this turbine doesn't reach full output until about 28 mph.

[Grizalltheway]

That's why Clenz and I are so hardy. We're both from NW Iowa.

clenz takes meds...

whomp whomp whoooooomp............

I nominate this as the official "whomp" sound.

[youtube][/youtube]

[HI54UNI]

That's why Clenz and I are so hardy. We're both from NW Iowa.

clenz takes meds...

whomp whomp whoooooomp............

He probably drank some of the water at Little Rock, Iowa, a town near his hometown. If he did it would explain a lot.

[ASUG8]

I'm not really sure what will make enviromentalists happy - this takes 200,000 homes off the grid, but it might mess up the migratory patterns of birds? Another NIMBY roadblock.

In the desert of western Arizona, a power company proposes to build the world's tallest chimney -- a tower, 2,600 feet tall, that would be the centerpiece of a giant non-polluting power plant, making electricity from the heat of the sun.

Environmental advocates are conflicted too, not wanting to oppose a source of clean power or a boost to the local economy, but concerned that it might affect migrating birds and local wildlife, even in the desert.

"This thing seems to be a weird black hole at the moment," said Vashti Supplee, the director of bird conservation for the Arizona chapter of the National Audubon Society. She said it's possible that birds, migrating along the nearby Colorado River, would be confused by it. "I don't know what's going on with it."

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/solar- ... d=14163138" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[houndawg]

What's the problem? Houndawg has said that all we have to do to acheive breakthroughs in alternative energy is to believe that we are able to create these breakthroughs (and it helps if the President challenges us, ala JFK, to do so). Messy details like these are all the obstacles of little minds. We need to think we can, and we will!

[JohnStOnge]

Changing the subject some but here is an idea that seems obvious in retrospect:

http://theadvocate.com/home/362421-81/r ... rking.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

At least in a river like the Mississippi it should be very consistent. Hydroelectric power without the dam.