Cain - First Amendment is Garbage

[citdog]

Ok, let's set something aside for a second. Your wording is such that you think I'm not American and that I'm Muslim. I'm born and raised here and as American as you. Second, I'm not a Muslim; I'm not religious in any way. Do I have a Muslim upbringing? Yes. Am I a follower of the religion? No.

Second, it is an irrational fear. American Muslims are just that, Americans that practice a different religion. I've had a few times where I've gone out with my mother shopping and because she wears a hijab, she's been told racial slurs; I've gotten into a few verbal altercations for shit like that. And I can't even recall the amount of dirty looks she's gotten. As for my father, he owns a small business and he's actually had people stop dealing with him when they found out his religion. My parents are two people who have lived here 30+ years just trying to live the "American Dream," and just 'cause some people have an irrational fear of Muslims in this country, it doesn't mean people have to be looked at differently on an individual level. Again, it's what's inside someone's heart that counts. This country is supposed to be the beacon of freedom that all others are measured by, or at least I'd like to think. We shouldn't be regressing backwards to darker times in our country's history. We should be progressing forward and setting good examples for the next generation of Americans to continue what makes the US amazing.

And look man, I'm not telling you not to debate it; everyone has the right to say anything they want. But I think it's a waste of time and money (things we're lacking right now) when we start arguing stuff like this on the goverment level. The Constitution is clear; it is the supreme law of the land and all our citizens are protected under it's words.

So in conclusion, the world is a fucked up place.

you are NOT as American as others. you're first generation arab scum who is taking advantage of a country YOU TOOK NO PART IN MAKING. Tell your mother that we don't wear COSTUMES in this country except on 31 Oct. Until you get YOUR tent in the desert sorted out KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT ABOUT WHAT AMERICANS DEBATE AND BE THANKFUL THAT YOU ARE LUCKY ENOUGH TO HAVE THE CHANCE TO LEECH OFF OF WHAT HAS BEEN CREATED BY OUR BLOOD. OUR SWEAT. OUR TEARS. DON'T ATTEMPT TO LECTURE US ABOUT WHAT WE ARE. WE KNOW AS IT IS OF OUR CREATION. MUSLIM SCUM ATTEMPTING TO LECTURE AMERICANS ABOUT FREEDOM......I HAVE NOW SEEN IT ALL.

[dbackjon]

Ok, let's set something aside for a second. Your wording is such that you think I'm not American and that I'm Muslim. I'm born and raised here and as American as you. Second, I'm not a Muslim; I'm not religious in any way. Do I have a Muslim upbringing? Yes. Am I a follower of the religion? No.

Second, it is an irrational fear. American Muslims are just that, Americans that practice a different religion. I've had a few times where I've gone out with my mother shopping and because she wears a hijab, she's been told racial slurs; I've gotten into a few verbal altercations for shit like that. And I can't even recall the amount of dirty looks she's gotten. As for my father, he owns a small business and he's actually had people stop dealing with him when they found out his religion. My parents are two people who have lived here 30+ years just trying to live the "American Dream," and just 'cause some people have an irrational fear of Muslims in this country, it doesn't mean people have to be looked at differently on an individual level. Again, it's what's inside someone's heart that counts. This country is supposed to be the beacon of freedom that all others are measured by, or at least I'd like to think. We shouldn't be regressing backwards to darker times in our country's history. We should be progressing forward and setting good examples for the next generation of Americans to continue what makes the US amazing.

And look man, I'm not telling you not to debate it; everyone has the right to say anything they want. But I think it's a waste of time and money (things we're lacking right now) when we start arguing stuff like this on the goverment level. The Constitution is clear; it is the supreme law of the land and all our citizens are protected under it's words.

So in conclusion, the world is a fucked up place.

you are NOT as American as others. you're first generation arab scum who is taking advantage of a country YOU TOOK NO PART IN MAKING. Tell your mother that we don't wear COSTUMES in this country except on 31 Oct. Until you get YOUR tent in the desert sorted out KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT ABOUT WHAT AMERICANS DEBATE AND BE THANKFUL THAT YOU ARE LUCKY ENOUGH TO HAVE THE CHANCE TO LEECH OFF OF WHAT HAS BEEN CREATED BY OUR BLOOD. OUR SWEAT. OUR TEARS. DON'T ATTEMPT TO LECTURE US ABOUT WHAT WE ARE. WE KNOW AS IT IS OF OUR CREATION. MUSLIM SCUM ATTEMPTING TO LECTURE AMERICANS ABOUT FREEDOM......I HAVE NOW SEEN IT ALL.

From the sounds of it, he knows a hell of a lot more about freedom and being an American than you...

[citdog]

you are NOT as American as others. you're first generation arab scum who is taking advantage of a country YOU TOOK NO PART IN MAKING. Tell your mother that we don't wear COSTUMES in this country except on 31 Oct. Until you get YOUR tent in the desert sorted out KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT ABOUT WHAT AMERICANS DEBATE AND BE THANKFUL THAT YOU ARE LUCKY ENOUGH TO HAVE THE CHANCE TO LEECH OFF OF WHAT HAS BEEN CREATED BY OUR BLOOD. OUR SWEAT. OUR TEARS. DON'T ATTEMPT TO LECTURE US ABOUT WHAT WE ARE. WE KNOW AS IT IS OF OUR CREATION. MUSLIM SCUM ATTEMPTING TO LECTURE AMERICANS ABOUT FREEDOM......I HAVE NOW SEEN IT ALL.

From the sounds of it, he knows a hell of a lot more about freedom and being an American than you...

He is practicing the age old muslim art of Hudaibiya or Taqiyya. You who have never sat in a cafe in Hafia or Tel Aviv and be worried that the whole place may blow up cannot understand the threat until it is at your door. Believe the muslim when he lies to you because he is lying with DIRECT PERMISSION FROM HIS FALSE PROPHET BECAUSE IT FURTHERS THEIR CAUSE AND BECAUSE YOU ARE AN INFIDEL AND ONLY HAVE TWO CHOICES.....CONVERT OR DEATH.

[travelinman67]

So is dback for or against Sharia Law being injected into the US culture?

I am not for any religious law. But to assume that any mosque will automatically advocate for Sharia Law (and even if they do, that is their right) would mean that you have to assume that any Christian Church is for advocating Christian Law in the US (oh wait, churches try to influence and impose their law on the rest of us all the time).

Um...yes they do.

And you push back, even to the point of suggesting they be censored.

So where's the difference?

Oh, wait, I forgot...this is political hypocrisy a-la Wildcats.

[∞∞∞]

He is practicing the age old muslim art of Hudaibiya or Taqiyya. You who have never sat in a cafe in Hafia or Tel Aviv and be worried that the whole place may blow up cannot understand the threat until it is at your door. Believe the muslim when he lies to you because he is lying with DIRECT PERMISSION FROM HIS FALSE PROPHET BECAUSE IT FURTHERS THEIR CAUSE AND BECAUSE YOU ARE AN INFIDEL AND ONLY HAVE TWO CHOICES.....CONVERT OR DEATH.

I gotta give you credit man, your humor knows no bounds.

So a little OT here citdog since you're questioning my American values: From what I understand, you're also an Israeli citizen because you're Jewish. I'm also a Lebanese citizen because of Lebanese citizenship laws. Now if the United States suddenly changed it's stance on dual-citizenship making it illegal, would you immediately renounce yours with Israel (even if you could never enter the country again)? I would renounce mine with Lebanon in a heartbeat. How 'bout you? Would you choose America or the religious homeland you love so much?

ps. thanks jon!

[citdog]

[EWURanger]

Let me tell you something, Bubba. That picture doesn't mean crap. I have lived in the Middle East and I have been to every country over there except Syria, and that picture represents the exception, not the norm. In fact, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that that picture is from Lebanon; the ONLY Middle Eastern country where Christians have stood up and resisted the Islamists. They might have a couple of pretty churches next to mosques, but it was paid for in blood and will be again.

Jordan- one of the most moderate and liberal countries in the Middle East, has a law that no new Christian churches can be built except on the sites of old Christian churches. In other words, if you want ot build one, you have to tear one down, or prove that one of the old Byzantine churches once stood on the site. That's a fact, and it is one of the more liberal laws concerning Christian churches in the MIddle East.

Personally, I would protest a mosque near my house because of the fvcking noise coming from the miniarets 5 fvcking times a day. That's a legitimate gripe. Those fvckers will throw your ass in jail AT BEST if you proselytize in THEIR countries, but they want me and you to listen to their sh!t blasted over a loudspeaker multiple times daily.

This. I've also spent a lot of time in the middle east, and this assessment is spot on.

I'm getting tired of this notion that we should continue being tolerant of the intolerant......that we somehow hold the moral high ground by doing so. Meanwhile, many places in Europe have completely lost their cultural identities because people sat by idly and did nothing for fear of being thought of as discriminatory. Well I say fuck that.

[∞∞∞]

I'm getting tired of this notion that we should continue being tolerant of the intolerant......that we somehow hold the moral high ground by doing so. Meanwhile, many places in Europe have completely lost their cultural identities because people sat by idly and did nothing for fear of being thought of as discriminatory. Well I say fuck that.

Europe is a whole different animal than the US concerning Islam. It's not really comparable. This great post from a user on City-Data.com pretty much sums up the differences better than I ever could:

Muslim immigrants to Europeans countries are generally very different from Muslim immigrants to the U.S. Firstly, many of them initially came from poor and rural backgrounds in their home countries, recruited by Europeans to become "guest workers" to help rebuild their countries after the war. They were thought of as guests and it was assumed that they would return home. They didn't. Instead, they had children, raised families and brought over more family members who had children. Unlike the U.S. and Canada, Europe did not have a history of encouraged immigration and placed a heavy emphasis on nationality. As such, these foreign "guests" were generally confined to the underclass, with little effort given towards integrating them, placing them oftentimes in shoddy housing, grouping them together, and having them confined to certain areas of employment. This was a short-term solution that somewhat "worked" for the first group of immigrants, but not their children. Their children found themselves in the classic "first generation" dilemma of immigrants' children around the world of being torn between two countries, never feeling at home really in either. However, the sense of isolation between their home countries in Europe was greater than those first generation immigrants in the U.S., largely because Europe basically didn't want them there and tried to ignore them. In some countries, they were ineligible for citizenship. In countries with stubbornly high unemployment rates already, minorities faced an even harder time finding employment from the established, oftentimes racist and xenophobic, society of their home countries. It created a vacuum of poverty, unemployment, segregation and a sense of alienation which made many neighborhoods ripe feeding grounds for militant imams. Angry young people with nothing to do and seeing little future ahead, finally were seeing an outlet for their anger in religious fundamentalism. It gave them a sense of belonging, something to do with their time, and fed into the bitterness they had at society as a whole and rewarded the violent rejection of it's values. It is the same manner in which U.S. street gangs take hold in inner cities, but the difference lies in the oftentimes loftier and more sinister goals whereas U.S. gangs tend to focus on drug money and neighborhood issues, as opposed to taking on a society or culture as a whole and regarding it as the enemy. It's only been in recent years where many European countries have started confronting the problems they have faced with integrating new immigrants, and realizing their errs of the past. The situation is similar for other non-Muslim immigrants in Europe, but just due to proximity, Muslims from various nationalities generally form the bulk of immigrants in most European countries.

This sort of thing doesn't happen all that much in the U.S. In regards to Muslims in particular, the overwhelming majority of Muslims who come to the U.S. are college-educated and tend to be from more wealthy and urban backgrounds. They are generally fluent in English and sponsored by employers. Muslim-Americans have a high average income, are overrepresented in many high-skilled and well-paying fields, and generally live integrated in American suburbs, working and living alongside mostly non-Muslims (oftentimes including large numbers of Jews, so there's less of that rift as well). While the children of immigrants in America face the same culture clashes as many children of immigrants elsewhere, it's a bridge that the majority of them are to able to navigate successfully compared to those in other countries. The U.S. is generally a country that is accepting of newcomers. It has long been a country of immigrants, absorbing wave after wave of culture after culture, being accomodating but by the same token holding steady to it's core beliefs and encouraging assimilation. As such, there isn't so much this sense that a Turk or a Pakistani or a Moroccan can never truly be an American, as there is in many European countries. There aren't quite as many identity crises. Due to the integrated, well-off, and educated nature of the Muslim community in the U.S., Islamic extremism doesn't really root itself well into the community here. There is less anger to tap into. Most of the Muslims in the U.S. live well are too well-educated to be swayed by it and tend to believe in a more moderate-to-liberal version of Islam.

The majority of Muslims in Europe reject Islamic fundamentalism as well, but there is indeed a proportionally higher acceptance of extremist beliefs amongst European Muslims than their American counterparts. Of course, home-grown terrorism can happen anywhere. All it takes is a few crazies, as is evident of the Lackawanna Six here in the U.S. They should never be made as an example of such a large group as a whole, but there is something to be said for investigating whether a country's policies and social climate is one in which makes it more acceptable for such dangerous views to foment.

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/world/15 ... z1SUsC5DhN" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[citdog]

He is practicing the age old muslim art of Hudaibiya or Taqiyya. You who have never sat in a cafe in Hafia or Tel Aviv and be worried that the whole place may blow up cannot understand the threat until it is at your door. Believe the muslim when he lies to you because he is lying with DIRECT PERMISSION FROM HIS FALSE PROPHET BECAUSE IT FURTHERS THEIR CAUSE AND BECAUSE YOU ARE AN INFIDEL AND ONLY HAVE TWO CHOICES.....CONVERT OR DEATH.

I gotta give you credit man, your humor knows no bounds.

So a little OT here citdog since you're questioning my American values: From what I understand, you're also an Israeli citizen because you're Jewish. I'm also a Lebanese citizen because of Lebanese citizenship laws. Now if the United States suddenly changed it's stance on dual-citizenship making it illegal, would you immediately renounce yours with Israel (even if you could never enter the country again)? I would renounce mine with Lebanon in a heartbeat. How 'bout you? Would you choose America or the religious homeland you love so much?

ps. thanks jon!

It is telling that you make no response to your "Taqiyya 101" course that was posted earlier. Or the choice that IN YOUR OWN 'holy book' IS WRITTEN AS PLAINLY AS THE 10TH AMENDMENT FOR ALL WHO ARE INFIDELS. CONVERT OR DIE.


You may as well ask me what my opinion of going back to building pyramids in egypt would be. Both are just as likely to happen.

[∞∞∞]

Citdog, I'm not responding to your idiotic request because I'm not Muslim. I had never even seen those two words before you brought them up in this thread. Now carry on with your schtick.

[citdog]

I'm getting tired of this notion that we should continue being tolerant of the intolerant......that we somehow hold the moral high ground by doing so. Meanwhile, many places in Europe have completely lost their cultural identities because people sat by idly and did nothing for fear of being thought of as discriminatory. Well I say fuck that.

Europe is a whole different animal than the US concerning Islam. It's not really comparable. This great post from a user on City-Data.com pretty much sums up the differences better than I ever could:

Muslim immigrants to Europeans countries are generally very different from Muslim immigrants to the U.S. Firstly, many of them initially came from poor and rural backgrounds in their home countries, recruited by Europeans to become "guest workers" to help rebuild their countries after the war. They were thought of as guests and it was assumed that they would return home. They didn't. Instead, they had children, raised families and brought over more family members who had children. Unlike the U.S. and Canada, Europe did not have a history of encouraged immigration and placed a heavy emphasis on nationality. As such, these foreign "guests" were generally confined to the underclass, with little effort given towards integrating them, placing them oftentimes in shoddy housing, grouping them together, and having them confined to certain areas of employment. This was a short-term solution that somewhat "worked" for the first group of immigrants, but not their children. Their children found themselves in the classic "first generation" dilemma of immigrants' children around the world of being torn between two countries, never feeling at home really in either. However, the sense of isolation between their home countries in Europe was greater than those first generation immigrants in the U.S., largely because Europe basically didn't want them there and tried to ignore them. In some countries, they were ineligible for citizenship. In countries with stubbornly high unemployment rates already, minorities faced an even harder time finding employment from the established, oftentimes racist and xenophobic, society of their home countries. It created a vacuum of poverty, unemployment, segregation and a sense of alienation which made many neighborhoods ripe feeding grounds for militant imams. Angry young people with nothing to do and seeing little future ahead, finally were seeing an outlet for their anger in religious fundamentalism. It gave them a sense of belonging, something to do with their time, and fed into the bitterness they had at society as a whole and rewarded the violent rejection of it's values. It is the same manner in which U.S. street gangs take hold in inner cities, but the difference lies in the oftentimes loftier and more sinister goals whereas U.S. gangs tend to focus on drug money and neighborhood issues, as opposed to taking on a society or culture as a whole and regarding it as the enemy. It's only been in recent years where many European countries have started confronting the problems they have faced with integrating new immigrants, and realizing their errs of the past. The situation is similar for other non-Muslim immigrants in Europe, but just due to proximity, Muslims from various nationalities generally form the bulk of immigrants in most European countries.

This sort of thing doesn't happen all that much in the U.S. In regards to Muslims in particular, the overwhelming majority of Muslims who come to the U.S. are college-educated and tend to be from more wealthy and urban backgrounds. They are generally fluent in English and sponsored by employers. Muslim-Americans have a high average income, are overrepresented in many high-skilled and well-paying fields, and generally live integrated in American suburbs, working and living alongside mostly non-Muslims (oftentimes including large numbers of Jews, so there's less of that rift as well). While the children of immigrants in America face the same culture clashes as many children of immigrants elsewhere, it's a bridge that the majority of them are to able to navigate successfully compared to those in other countries. The U.S. is generally a country that is accepting of newcomers. It has long been a country of immigrants, absorbing wave after wave of culture after culture, being accomodating but by the same token holding steady to it's core beliefs and encouraging assimilation. As such, there isn't so much this sense that a Turk or a Pakistani or a Moroccan can never truly be an American, as there is in many European countries. There aren't quite as many identity crises. Due to the integrated, well-off, and educated nature of the Muslim community in the U.S., Islamic extremism doesn't really root itself well into the community here. There is less anger to tap into. Most of the Muslims in the U.S. live well are too well-educated to be swayed by it and tend to believe in a more moderate-to-liberal version of Islam.

The majority of Muslims in Europe reject Islamic fundamentalism as well, but there is indeed a proportionally higher acceptance of extremist beliefs amongst European Muslims than their American counterparts. Of course, home-grown terrorism can happen anywhere. All it takes is a few crazies, as is evident of the Lackawanna Six here in the U.S. They should never be made as an example of such a large group as a whole, but there is something to be said for investigating whether a country's policies and social climate is one in which makes it more acceptable for such dangerous views to foment.

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/world/15 ... z1SUsC5DhN" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[citdog]

Citdog, I'm not responding to your idiotic request because I'm not Muslim. I had never even seen those two words before you brought them up in this thread. :

sure

[CID1990]

Let me tell you something, Bubba. That picture doesn't mean crap. I have lived in the Middle East and I have been to every country over there except Syria, and that picture represents the exception, not the norm. In fact, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that that picture is from Lebanon; the ONLY Middle Eastern country where Christians have stood up and resisted the Islamists. They might have a couple of pretty churches next to mosques, but it was paid for in blood and will be again.

Jordan- one of the most moderate and liberal countries in the Middle East, has a law that no new Christian churches can be built except on the sites of old Christian churches. In other words, if you want ot build one, you have to tear one down, or prove that one of the old Byzantine churches once stood on the site. That's a fact, and it is one of the more liberal laws concerning Christian churches in the MIddle East.

Personally, I would protest a mosque near my house because of the fvcking noise coming from the miniarets 5 fvcking times a day. That's a legitimate gripe. Those fvckers will throw your ass in jail AT BEST if you proselytize in THEIR countries, but they want me and you to listen to their sh!t blasted over a loudspeaker multiple times daily.

Seriously, have you ever heard a loudspeaker from a mosque in the US? Yeah probably not 'cause in almost every locality in the US they're banned (of course church bells are often ok ).

And yes, that picture is from Lebanon. Also, your post clearly shows you have absolutely no understanding of the dynamics in the country between Christianity and Islam. "A couple of pretty churches?" There's over a 1000 in a country that's smaller than Connecticut...many right next to each other (my home over there is next to a church that's next to mosque...both bells and minarets go off). After the civil war, there's been much support between Christians and Muslims in Lebanon and unless you've lived there for a few years, you clearly don't understand how they've worked together to build the country up (for God's sake our President is Christian). There's really no major malice between the two anymore other than with Hezbollah, and even then, Lebanese Christian leaders and Hezbollah have been having open talks lately (in addition to denouncing each other...typical politics).

I won't speak for the rest of the Middle East as I've only visited other countries and didn't live in any of them, but Alpha asked for only one example, and Lebanon was it.

Triple squiggly infinity or whatever you are-

YOU used Lebanon and for the sake of your argument, that's quite an ironic example to use. I already said in my post that Lebanon is the one Middle Eastern country where the Christian minority actually stood up against the Islamists, and they fought a civil war over it. The fact that Lebanon does in fact have some semblance (on the surface only) of hamony between Christians and Muslims is because the Christians there decided to use the only language the Muslims over there understand: a good, old fashioned a$$ kicking. Lebanon is instructive for sure.

Where religious minorities (not just Christians) fail to stand up and resist is when you get places like Saudi Arabia and VERY SOON Egypt.

I have lived over there more than YOU, Bubba. The watered-down feel good version of Islam you were brought up under is not what they are teaching overseas. You're like a Methodist trying to argue that the Falwell Baptists are just misunderstood.

[youngterrier]

Seriously, have you ever heard a loudspeaker from a mosque in the US? Yeah probably not 'cause in almost every locality in the US they're banned (of course church bells are often ok ).

And yes, that picture is from Lebanon. Also, your post clearly shows you have absolutely no understanding of the dynamics in the country between Christianity and Islam. "A couple of pretty churches?" There's over a 1000 in a country that's smaller than Connecticut...many right next to each other (my home over there is next to a church that's next to mosque...both bells and minarets go off). After the civil war, there's been much support between Christians and Muslims in Lebanon and unless you've lived there for a few years, you clearly don't understand how they've worked together to build the country up (for God's sake our President is Christian). There's really no major malice between the two anymore other than with Hezbollah, and even then, Lebanese Christian leaders and Hezbollah have been having open talks lately (in addition to denouncing each other...typical politics).

I won't speak for the rest of the Middle East as I've only visited other countries and didn't live in any of them, but Alpha asked for only one example, and Lebanon was it.

Triple squiggly infinity or whatever you are-

YOU used Lebanon and for the sake of your argument, that's quite an ironic example to use. I already said in my post that Lebanon is the one Middle Eastern country where the Christian minority actually stood up against the Islamists, and they fought a civil war over it. The fact that Lebanon does in fact have some semblance (on the surface only) of hamony between Christians and Muslims is because the Christians there decided to use the only language the Muslims over there understand: a good, old fashioned a$$ kicking. Lebanon is instructive for sure.

Where religious minorities (not just Christians) fail to stand up and resist is when you get places like Saudi Arabia and VERY SOON Egypt.

I have lived over there more than YOU, Bubba. The watered-down feel good version of Islam you were brought up under is not what they are teaching overseas. You're like a Methodist trying to argue that the Falwell Baptists are just misunderstood.

Why ya gotta call me out that way?

[CID1990]

Hey citdog- I got invited to watch the guys cutting their heads in Baghdad back in 2004. An Iraqi cop I knew was married to a Shia woman and he invited me to go watch it with him in a neighborhood near the IZ. They are symbolizing the martyrdom of the Imam Ali. The symbolism is that they are cutting themselves for not being there to help the Imam when he was killed by the Sunnis. I think he was martyred in either Najaf or An Nasiriyah, and his death gave rise to the Shia movement.

Those guys are hardcore. I saw one guy who pretty much cut himself right through to the scalp.

[∞∞∞]

Triple squiggly infinity or whatever you are-

YOU used Lebanon and for the sake of your argument, that's quite an ironic example to use. I already said in my post that Lebanon is the one Middle Eastern country where the Christian minority actually stood up against the Islamists, and they fought a civil war over it. The fact that Lebanon does in fact have some semblance (on the surface only) of hamony between Christians and Muslims is because the Christians there decided to use the only language the Muslims over there understand: a good, old fashioned a$$ kicking. Lebanon is instructive for sure.

Where religious minorities (not just Christians) fail to stand up and resist is when you get places like Saudi Arabia and VERY SOON Egypt.

I have lived over there more than YOU, Bubba. The watered-down feel good version of Islam you were brought up under is not what they are teaching overseas. You're like a Methodist trying to argue that the Falwell Baptists are just misunderstood.

This post proves that you have little to zero knowledge about the dynamics between Christianity and Islam in Lebanon. It was one of the most poorly thought out and frankly, pathetic opinions in this whole thread. I don't know if your travels were primarily military or not, but you clearly didn't live and interact among the regular population to have formed such a misinformed opinion. I'm not gonna sit here wasting my time with this absolute garbage of a post. Respond however you like to what I'm saying, but I'm not replying to you from here on in this thread after you provided such complete lack of understanding of the subject

[CID1990]

Triple squiggly infinity or whatever you are-

YOU used Lebanon and for the sake of your argument, that's quite an ironic example to use. I already said in my post that Lebanon is the one Middle Eastern country where the Christian minority actually stood up against the Islamists, and they fought a civil war over it. The fact that Lebanon does in fact have some semblance (on the surface only) of hamony between Christians and Muslims is because the Christians there decided to use the only language the Muslims over there understand: a good, old fashioned a$$ kicking. Lebanon is instructive for sure.

Where religious minorities (not just Christians) fail to stand up and resist is when you get places like Saudi Arabia and VERY SOON Egypt.

I have lived over there more than YOU, Bubba. The watered-down feel good version of Islam you were brought up under is not what they are teaching overseas. You're like a Methodist trying to argue that the Falwell Baptists are just misunderstood.

This post proves that you have little to zero knowledge about the dynamics between Christianity and Islam in Lebanon. It was one of the most poorly thought out and frankly, pathetic opinions in this whole thread. I don't know if your travels were primarily military or not, but you clearly didn't live and interact among the regular population to have formed such a misinformed opinion. I'm not gonna sit here wasting my time with this absolute garbage of a post. Respond however you like to what I'm saying, but I'm not replying to you from here on in this thread after you provided such complete lack of understanding of the subject

If it is garbage, then why don't you educate me? You can't. I oversimplified it on purpose, but the central premise is spot on. I know all about the dynamic between the Sunnis, the Christians, and the Sunni Palestinian refugee community in Lebanon. The CENTRAL aim of the civil war over there was over the changing demographic in Lebanon due to the Palestinian diaspora, and the FACT that the Christians fought what would have become a Sunni majority in the parliament. Why did they fight this? Because of what completely Muslim controlled governments do to Christians. The Christian militias fought for what they saw as a threat to their survival. If modern Middle Eastern history is any indicator, they had good cause. Let's also not forget that Lebanese Christians DO live there and they know the ground truth more than even you or I. People who number just 25% of the population don't just pick up guns because the bread is too expensive.

You have absolutely NO idea what I have done in the Middle East, but I can tell you that understanding the culture and living on the local economy was a BIG part of it. I have more squiggly stamps in my passport than you have hairs on your little nuts.

[SDHornet]

NIMBYs absolutely have the right to express their opinions, but no house of worship (including Churches), should ever have to defend themselves like this when they've done nothing wrong. Honestly though, it's not a debate worth having because it's a waste of time and money. Cain, as a presidential hopeful, should know that the office is required to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." His comments clearly show he doesn't understand that, and that he's also a fairly close-minded fella. The whole story reminds me of the saying: Racism often hides itself as a seemingly legitimate concern.

FWIW when I was still in HS and attending church, our church wanted to build a new location in a residential neighborhood and had to jump through a bunch of hoops and go through the standard protocol any development would go through. This included issues brought up by the residents the new location and building would directly affect. The fact is all development projects (public capital improvements, private developments…hell anything involving a back hoe) go through this scrutiny. It’s the American way and just because a development is a place of worship should not exempt it from this scrutiny.

[citdog]

Triple squiggly infinity or whatever you are-

YOU used Lebanon and for the sake of your argument, that's quite an ironic example to use. I already said in my post that Lebanon is the one Middle Eastern country where the Christian minority actually stood up against the Islamists, and they fought a civil war over it. The fact that Lebanon does in fact have some semblance (on the surface only) of hamony between Christians and Muslims is because the Christians there decided to use the only language the Muslims over there understand: a good, old fashioned a$$ kicking. Lebanon is instructive for sure.

Where religious minorities (not just Christians) fail to stand up and resist is when you get places like Saudi Arabia and VERY SOON Egypt.

I have lived over there more than YOU, Bubba. The watered-down feel good version of Islam you were brought up under is not what they are teaching overseas. You're like a Methodist trying to argue that the Falwell Baptists are just misunderstood.

This post proves that you have little to zero knowledge about the dynamics between Christianity and Islam in Lebanon. It was one of the most poorly thought out and frankly, pathetic opinions in this whole thread. I don't know if your travels were primarily military or not, but you clearly didn't live and interact among the regular population to have formed such a misinformed opinion. I'm not gonna sit here wasting my time with this absolute garbage of a post. Respond however you like to what I'm saying, but I'm not replying to you from here on in this thread after you provided such complete lack of understanding of the subject

Save me your 'Lost Cause' I've one of my OWN.

[∞∞∞]

FWIW when I was still in HS and attending church, our church wanted to build a new location in a residential neighborhood and had to jump through a bunch of hoops and go through the standard protocol any development would go through. This included issues brought up by the residents the new location and building would directly affect. The fact is all development projects (public capital improvements, private developments…hell anything involving a back hoe) go through this scrutiny. It’s the American way and just because a development is a place of worship should not exempt it from this scrutiny.

And I agree, stuff like that is perfectly fine and normal for any organization to have to go through, including all religious sects. But the issue with this mosque clearly isn't the legal side of it, it's the racial discrimination part which is completely wrong. On the first page of this thread, the fourth video I posted shows how in a court of law, the opposition tried to argue that Islam wasn't a religion to stop the construction of the Mosque. They didn't argue or cite local laws or anything like that, they argued that Islam isn't a religion and that the mosque was to create a jihad and instill sharia law in Murfreesboro. That was their logic. You and I know for a fact that another group would never have to go through such questioning and this is the issue here. It's bigotry, plain and simple; no one in the United States should be treated differently based on their religion. Every American citizen is an equal.

[BDKJMU]

C'mon - if people feel strongly about something then it's a debate worth having, pure and simple, especially when it's a highly charged topic like this one is.

My issue is that it's a highly charged topic based on all the wrong reasons. Some things simply aren't worth debating when there's absolutely no rational logic from one side, regardless of how strongly the feelings are. It's like debating an internet troll, just in real life. Different arguments on the economy, immigration, and abortion all have legitimate reasoning behind the respective arguments. However, something like this doesn't; it's based on an irrational fear. If someone is just trying to legally live their life how they want, s/he shouldn't have to be subjagated to the hostility and the demands of others. These Muslims have done nothing wrong, and they're not being judged based on what's in their heart, but instead on notions preconceived from the actions of others.

No rational logic my ass. In the last decade:

-9/11

-2002: July 4: Los Angeles Airport shooting Hesham Mohamed Hadayet, a 41-year-old Egyptian national, kills two Israelis and wounds four others at the El Al ticket counter at Los Angeles International Airport.[36] The FBI concluded this was terrorism, though they did not find evidence linking Hadayet to a terrorist group

-2002: Beltway Sniper Attacks: During three weeks in October 2002, John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo killed 10 people and critically injured 3 others in Washington D.C, Baltimore, and Virginia. The pair were also suspected of earlier shootings in Maryland, Alabama, Arizona, Georgia, Louisiana, and Washington state.[38] No motivation was given at the trial, but evidence presented showed an affinity to the cause of the Islamic jihad.

• May 2002, Jose Padilla, also known as Abdullah al-Muhajir or Muhajir Abdullah, an American citizen accused of seeking radioactive-laced "dirty bomb" to use in an attack against America. Padilla was convicted of conspiracy in August, 2007.

• September 2002, Lackawanna Six: American citizens of Yemeni origin convicted of supporting Al Qaeda after attending jihadist camp in Pakistan. Five of six were from Lackawanna, N.Y.

• May 2003, Iyman Faris: American citizen charged with plotting to use blowtorches to collapse the Brooklyn Bridge.

• June 2003, Virginia Jihad Network: Eleven men from Alexandria, Va., trained for jihad against American soldiers, convicted of violating the Neutrality Act, conspiracy.

• August 2004, Dhiren Barot: Indian-born leader of terror cell plotted bombings on financial centers

• August 2004, James Elshafay and Shahawar Matin Siraj: Sought to plant bomb at New York's Penn Station during the Republican National Convention.

• August 2004, Yassin Aref and Mohammed Hossain: Plotted to assassinate a Pakistani diplomat on American soil.

• June 2005, Father and son Umer Hayat and Hamid Hayat: Son convicted of attending terrorist training camp in Pakistan; father convicted of customs violation.

• August 2005, Kevin James, Levar Haley Washington, Gregory Vernon Patterson and Hammad Riaz Samana: Los Angeles homegrown terrorists who plotted to attack National Guard, LAX, two synagogues and Israeli consulate.

-2006 March 5: Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar injured 6 when he drove an SUV into a group of pedestrians at UNC-Chapel Hill to "avenge the deaths or murders of Muslims around the world".[

-2006 July 28: Seattle Jewish Federation shooting, Naveed Afzal Haq, an American citizen of Pakistani descent, kills one woman and shoots five others at the Jewish Federation building in Seattle. During the shooting, Haq told a 911 dispatcher that he was angry with American foreign policy in the Middle East.

-2006: Syed Haaris Ahmed, a Pakistani, and Ehsanul Islam Sadequee, an American of Bangladeshi descent, were charged with conspiring to make videos for extremists. They were convicted.

-2006: Seven men, including five U.S. citizens, were charged with conspiring to blow up Chicago's Sears Tower. Six were convicted. Group attempted purchase of weapons from persons whom they believed were representatives of al-Qaeda but whom were actually undercover FBI agents.

-2007: Former U.S. sailor Hassan Abujihaad was accused of giving locations of Navy ships to a group that supports terrorists. He got 10 years.

-2007: Six New Jersey men were imprisoned in a conspiracy to attack Fort Dix.

-2007: An American and three others allegedly plotted to bomb fuel lines at JFK. All 3 of 4 have been convicted, 2 received life sentences, one 15 years, 4th awaits trial.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... otter.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-2008: Christopher Paul, a U.S. citizen, was arrested for conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction against U.S. and European targets. He got 20 years.

-2009: Four men were charged with plotting to bomb Bronx synagogues. All 4 were convicted.

-2009: Hosam Maher Husein Smadi, a Jordanian living in Dallas, was charged with trying to car-bomb an office tower. Pled guilty, sentenced to 24 years.
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairp ... untain.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-2009: Michael Finton of Illinois was busted in a courthouse bomb plot inspired by American Taliban John Walker Lindh.

-2009: Bryant Neal Vinas of Long Island was busted for allegedly giving Al Qaeda information on the subways and Long Island Rail Road. Plead guilty, case sealed:
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-07-22/just ... s=PM:CRIME" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brooklyn-born Betim Kaziu was charged in 2009 with trying to join an Al Qaeda affiliate in hope of killing U.S. troops.

-2009: Twelve Americans were indicted for allegedly supporting Al Shabaab, a terror group seeking to overthrow the Somali government.

-2009: Colleen LaRose, aka Jihad Jane, was charged with plotting to kill a Swedish cartoonist who had depicted the Prophet Mohammed. Plead guilty 3 days ago and is awaiting sentencing:
http://articles.philly.com/2011-03-05/n ... burg-woman" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-2009: Sharif Mobley, a 26-year-old New Jersey man, was arrested in March in a roundup of Al Qaeda suspects in Yemen.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,335 ... z1GKwR2Oit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/201 ... owing.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_ ... ted_States" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-2009: Muslim convert Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad opened fire with a rifle in a drive-by shooting on soldiers in front of a United States military recruiting office in Little Rock, Arkansas, in a jihad attack. He killed Private William Long, and wounded Private Quinton Ezeagwula.After his arrest, Muhammad acknowledged shooting the men. He told police that he had intended to kill as many Army personnel as possible. He had an SKS rifle, a Mossberg International 702 rifle, two handguns, 562 rounds of ammunition, and military books in his car. He said that he had been sent by Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, and that "the attack was justified according to Islamic Laws and the Islamic Religion. Jihad—to fight those who wage war on Islam and Muslims.” He had recently returned from 16 months in Yemen, and it was the first of two gunfire attacks in 2009 on US military facilities by Muslims with links to radical clerics in Yemen, who were upset at U.S. military actions in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Muhammad is charged with capital murder, attempted capital murder, and 10 counts of unlawful discharge of a weapon. Muhammad also reportedly faced 15 counts of engaging in a terrorist act.[5] Muhammad is pleading guilty, and awaiting a February 2011 jury trial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Littl ... e_shooting" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=7730637&page=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-Nov 2009: Muslim US Army major Nidal Hasan, who killed 13 and wounded 29 at Ft Hood. The ball was dropped one in the name of tolerance despite clear warning signs.

-2010: Muslim convert charged with trying to blow up military recruiting center in Maryland:
http://washingtonexaminer.com/local/201 ... ing-center" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-2010: A 30-year-old Pakistani-American was sentenced to life in prison for attempting to detonate a vehicle bomb in Times Square.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2010/times.square.plot/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[∞∞∞]

No rational logic my ass. In the last decade:

...

Yeah, because other people from different cultural and religious backgrounds haven't gone on shooting sprees or murdered people in the last decade either? Oh wait, didn't a white guy kill five people in January when he tried assassinating a representative, or how 'bout the black dude that killed 7 in a Michigan shooting spree less than two weeks ago, or how 'bout that Asian that killed 32 in 2007? Should we really list all the murders in the last decade and the ethnicities of those who committed them? Murder is murder. It's always wrong, but it doesn't mean we judge others because they share racial or religious characteristics of people who commit crime. Are we really going to judge 2.6 million Americans based on ~30 cases of home grown terrorism in the last decade?

A rational person would believe that "all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Between this thread and JSO's comments on black people in the other one, I've become slightly surprised at the faces some have shown. In addition, a lot of citizens here seem to lightly take our 1st and 14th Amendments which is also upsetting. And for those in the military or who have served and posted here, I implore you to remember the oath you took to support the Constitution.

[CID1990]

No rational logic my ass. In the last decade:

...

Yeah, because other people from different cultural and religious backgrounds haven't gone on shooting sprees or murdered people in the last decade either? Oh wait, didn't a white guy kill five people in January when he tried assassinating a representative, or how 'bout the black dude that killed 7 in a Michigan shooting spree less than two weeks ago, or how 'bout that Asian that killed 32 in 2007? Should we really list all the murders in the last decade and the ethnicities of those who committed them? Murder is murder. It's always wrong, but it doesn't mean we judge others because they share racial or religious characteristics of people who commit crime. Are we really going to judge 2.6 million Americans based on ~30 cases of home grown terrorism in the last decade?

A rational person would believe that "all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Between this thread and JSO's comments on black people in the other one, I've become slightly surprised at the faces some have shown. In addition, a lot of citizens here seem to lightly take our 1st and 14th Amendments which is also upsetting. And for those in the military or who have served and posted here, I implore you to remember the oath you took to support the Constitution.

The Asian guy didn't shoot those people while yelling religious slogans.

The white guy shooting the US Congresswoman wasn't yelling "Jesus saves!"

There were LOTS of "moderate" Muslims cheering in the streets of the world on 9-11, and they weren't "involved", either. Terrorist organizations like Hamas receive gobs and gobs of money from suppposed "moderate" Muslim organizations in America. There is a lot more to this than just saying "Well, other people kill people, too!"

To argue that Islam doesn't have a SERIOUS problem in the world right now is just silly talk. Heck, even the pacifist Dutch and the Scandinavian countries are starting to wake up. Apparently only "moderate" Muslims seem to have the Alfred E. Neuman disease.

Expecting that average Westerners are not going to give just a little bit of scrutiny towards what is tantamount to a death cult in some countries is expecting a little too much.

[∞∞∞]

I agree. Islam clearly has a problem around the world and it's pathetic that so many celebrated the deaths of thousands of innocent people. Still, I don't find that as an excuse to judge any person, regardless of their race, culture, or creed based on the acts of others. If a Muslim in the United States plans an act of terrorism (or commits any crime), they should absolutely face the court of public opinion and be sentenced accordingly. However, an American should never have to face racial, religious, or sexual discrimination or scrutiny for a reason s/he had no part of. There's no picking and choosing here...if we fail even one part of the Constitution, then we've failed it all (and I think we're failing it right now based on some other issues).

[CID1990]

I agree. Islam clearly has a problem around the world and it's pathetic that so many celebrated the deaths of thousands of innocent people. Still, I don't find that as an excuse to judge any person, regardless of their race, culture, or creed based on the acts of others. If a Muslim in the United States plans an act of terrorism (or commits any crime), they should absolutely face the court of public opinion and be sentenced accordingly. However, an American should never have to face racial, religious, or sexual discrimination or scrutiny for a reason s/he had no part of. There's no picking and choosing here...if we fail even one part of the Constitution, then we've failed it all (and I think we're failing it right now based on some other issues).

I have a buddy back home who rescues black bears. He works for the NC Wildlife Dept.

When I went in the cage with him a couple times, I never knew which one was the tame one, so I kept my distance from all of them.

On a personal level, it is easy to know another person. You interact with them every day, maybe at work or at the pub. We cannot personally vet every person on the earth for homicidal tendencies, whether they be fueled by fanaticism or plain insanity or whatever. We have to play the percentages, and right now, if you are going to be killed in an international terrorist incident, you can take it to Vegas with the assumption that your killer(s) will be Muslim, and they will be of either Pakistani, Saudi, Yemeni, Somali or Algerian nationality. When you see a group of bears and you know one of them is tame, do you run up to the group, or wait for the tame one to show itself?

Do I think that the run of the mill American mosque will automatically become a hotbed of fanatical jihadist activity? No, I don't. But I do think that it is quite Pollyanna-ish to expect the average American to just drive on and forget about it. Whether Cain thinks a mosque can be banned or not is immaterial. That opinion is not unconstitutional. The President of the United States cannot just arbitrarily suspend the First Amendment, regardless of the predictable forthcoming GWB hyperbole that will come from the board trolls. The First Amendment protects a person's right to speak out against the mosque, just as it guarantees the freedom of religious expression. When someone like Cain suddenly develops the ability to alter the COnstitution in a fundamental way, then I'll be worried about it. Until then, he can say what he wants, and so can I. The discussions of and worldwide scrutiny over radical Islam are based in commonalities and common sense. There will always be fringe elements who say goofy or unsupportable things (especially when pandering to a political base), and there always have been. That does not mean that we are having a Constitutional crisis or the sky is falling.

I spent a lot of time as a cop checking on a mosque at King and Grove Streets in Charleston in my day. The law protects the mosques and the Muslims, and it will continue to do so.