Another year and....

[CoachL]

Good Lord! You really want to go out further on this tangent? Fine.

The cost of Butler is $29,740 dollars.

Wrong. The full cost of attending Butler (a "full ride" athletic scholarship equivalent) is, according to Butler's web site: $40,438+ "Full ride" athletic scholarships cover everything; tuition, room & board, books, fees.

The cost at Appalachian State for in state is $5,460.74, for out of state it is $16,722.

Wrong again. The full cost of attending Appalachian State ("full ride" blah, blah, blah) is, according to the ASU web site: $11,220+ for in-state and $22,532+ for out-of-state.

It barely costs more for a year at ASU for a non North Carolina resident than it costs for a semester at Butler. Of course a Butler student is going to get more in aid - especially compared to a NC resident at ASU - 100% of their tuition in grant is equal to 18% of a Butler students tuition What's your point in all of that?

My simple point was that some people question PFL schools' "financial commitment" to football because they don't offer athletic scholarships. They go further and say that since PFL schools don't have the same financial commitment as other FCS schools (Appalachian State for example), they are asking for "welfare" and don't deserve an AQ or any consideration for an at-large. To that I say.... BULLSHIT.

More than likely, Butler awards more in grant/scholarship money to its football players than does a school like Appalachian State. If it is not more, it is certainly not much less. It just comes from a different pocket. The grant money that my older son receives from Butler is greater than the amount of a full athletic scholarship for an out-of-state football player at Appalachian State, and he no longer plays football.

The argument that PFL teams don't play a tough enough OOC schedule (given that their conference schedule is rather weak) to be considered for an at-large has validity. However, the "financial commitment" argument is pure, unadulterated bullshit.

Oh, and if Butler football players are getting academic grant money at a higher rate than the rest of the student population - especially if they aren't "more qualified" for the money - the NCAA needs to investigate that.

Wow, clenz! That must have REALLY hurt when you pulled that one out of your ass!

[BlueHen86]

Good Lord! You really want to go out further on this tangent? Fine.

The cost of Butler is $29,740 dollars.

Wrong. The full cost of attending Butler (a "full ride" athletic scholarship equivalent) is, according to Butler's web site: $40,438+ "Full ride" athletic scholarships cover everything; tuition, room & board, books, fees.

The cost at Appalachian State for in state is $5,460.74, for out of state it is $16,722.

Wrong again. The full cost of attending Appalachian State ("full ride" blah, blah, blah) is, according to the ASU web site: $11,220+ for in-state and $22,532+ for out-of-state.

It barely costs more for a year at ASU for a non North Carolina resident than it costs for a semester at Butler. Of course a Butler student is going to get more in aid - especially compared to a NC resident at ASU - 100% of their tuition in grant is equal to 18% of a Butler students tuition What's your point in all of that?

My simple point was that some people question PFL schools' "financial commitment" to football because they don't offer athletic scholarships. They go further and say that since PFL schools don't have the same financial commitment as other FCS schools (Appalachian State for example), they are asking for "welfare" and don't deserve an AQ or any consideration for an at-large. To that I say.... BULLSHIT.

More than likely, Butler awards more in grant/scholarship money to its football players than does a school like Appalachian State. If it is not more, it is certainly not much less. It just comes from a different pocket. The grant money that my older son receives from Butler is greater than the amount of a full athletic scholarship for an out-of-state football player at Appalachian State, and he no longer plays football.

The argument that PFL teams don't play a tough enough OOC schedule (given that their conference schedule is rather weak) to be considered for an at-large has validity. However, the "financial commitment" argument is pure, unadulterated bullshit.

Oh, and if Butler football players are getting academic grant money at a higher rate than the rest of the student population - especially if they aren't "more qualified" for the money - the NCAA needs to investigate that.

Wow, clenz! That must have REALLY hurt when you pulled that one out of your ass!

You are in pure, unadulterated denial.

[CoachL]

[You are in pure, unadulterated denial.

And you constantly come up with these absolutely useless, asinine comments that add nothing to the discussion.

[CoachL]

Then why don't the dumba**es in charge of their league apply for one?

...tell your league commish to get of his arse and apply for an AQ, which will simply expand the playoffs to 22 or 24.

I don't care if the PFL applies for an auto...

How many times has this been stated in this thread alone? How many times has it been talked about on this board and on AGS?

Well, I guess one more time doesn't hurt.

The PFL has officially requested an AQ. The PFL was turned down for 2010, but will continue to pursue the matter.

Everyone got it now?

[CoachL]

Using the "money spent on the program" philosophy is disingenuous at best, unless you're strictly speaking of scholarships.

Otherwise, just within the BSC alone there's a huge disparity in $$ allocated to football. That's why it's the same 4 teams that are competitive every year. It ain't rocket science.

The "money spent on the program" philosophy being used to say that the PFL does not deserve an AQ is disingenuous at best.

I thought that this thread was going to be the same-ol' strength of schedule debate vis-a-vis an at-large playoff bid.

That debate is valid, in my opinion.

However, the stuff about the PFL not deserving to be in the playoffs because of the smaller amount of money that the schools spend on their football teams is pure bullshit. Should the lower-spending teams in the Big Sky be denied an opportunity in the playoffs because they don't spend/have as much money as some others in the conference? Of course not.

As you say, "it ain't rocket science."

[89Hen]

I'll address it. This year the Big South and NEC were given bids and the field was expanded to 20... is the tourney meeting new found success?

D2 and D3 have more teams... are they more successful?

Now that you mention it...

Yes.

Nope

[89Hen]

The beef is legit, whether or not folks outside the league agree or not.

Agreed! I've said all along that the PFL needs to upgrade their scheduling. It is starting, but it is a slow process.

If the rest of the I-AA world, who really doesn't lose a thing by giving the PFL a bid, doesn't think you have a legit beef... you don't. You are the only one's who benefit from a change, so you are going to be biased.

And I'm calling bullshit on the second point (the slow part). Hofstra moved up to I-AA from DIII in 1991 without a conference to call home. Their first schedule had: Bucknell, CCSU, UNH, Buffalo, Fordham, Lafayette, Towson and Dayton. The next year they played JMU and Montana. By 1995 they made the playoffs by beating Nicholls, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Illinois State, Liberty, SacSt, Fordham, Chuck Southern, Buffalo, URI and losing to Marshall.

Coastal Carolina started up football and joined a 5 team Big South which included VMI, Chuck So, Liberty and G-W. This conference was NOWHERE NEAR being thought of as a conference to where a bid might go. But in their third year of ever having football they played: Elon, JMU, AppSt, DelSt and SCSt. The next year they played Elon, GSU, Wofford, Furman, SCSt, went 9-2 and made the field.

The NEC wanted a bid several years ago. So what did they do? They scheduled UNH, Maine, Delaware, Lehigh, GSU, etc... do you think it was coincidence that they got a bid after they did that?

You're going to sit there and tell me that PFL teams can't get anyone to play them? Bullshit. Keep playing Central State, Albion, Taylor, Webber Int'l... and hold your breath for that bid. At least Jacksonville is stepping up their slate with AppSt and ODU... learn from them and others that have gone before you.

[CoachL]

Now that you mention it...

Yes.

Nope

Yup!

[89Hen]

Yup!

OK smart guy... which has more interest? Our 20 team field, the D2 or D3 playoffs?

[CoachL]

Agreed! I've said all along that the PFL needs to upgrade their scheduling. It is starting, but it is a slow process.

And I'm calling bullshit on the second point (the slow part).

You're calling bullshit on the fact that it is moving slowly?

You're going to sit there and tell me that PFL teams can't get anyone to play them?

When did I "sit (here) and tell (you) that PFL teams can't get anyone to play them"? You're thinking of your good friend, DF! I've never said anything of the sort.

You putting words into my mouth is...

Bullshit.

I have stated NUMEROUS times - here, on AGS, and on the PFL board when I used to post there, that the PFL scheduling needs to improve. And Butler has been one of the biggest offenders. In Butler's defense, the program was that close to being cut after winning only 3 games in 3 seasons and going 0-11 in 2005. Apparently, the absurd contract with Albion was made for 10 years! Butler has started to upgrade their schedule with teams such as Youngstown State. I cannot speak for Dayton. (They lost to my Dukes this year! )

When Butler was 11-1 last year, did you hear a single Butler supporter whine about not getting an at-large bid? I didn't. Direct your cries of "bullshit" elsewhere.

Final observation... Do you really want to use Hofstra as an example of how to handle an FCS football program?

[GannonFan]

If the PFL wants in the playoffs, then simply ask for the autobid. If they only just asked for one earlier this year for the first time ever, then they'll probably get the AQ in a year or two like the Big South and NEC did. It's really that easy. If you want into the playoffs, then ask.

Of course the other option is to play a schedule that would make you worthy of making the playoffs (see countless independent teams who played quality schedules, won enough games, and made the playoffs without having to belong to an autobid conference - the examples are numerous from the past - GSU, Delaware, Hofstra, YSU, and Coastal, among others, made the playoffs playing as independents - it's certainly doable). But if you don't want to change the schedule and play a schedule that will get you into the playoffs, then ask for the autobid. Doing neither and then whining on message boards is just shouting at the wind.

[CoachL]

Yup!

OK smart guy... which has more interest? Our 20 team field, the D2 or D3 playoffs?

The FCS (Football Cost-Containment Subdivision) 20 team field has more interest and support than the FCS 16 team field.

A 22 or 24 team FCS Playoff field will have even more interest and support than the 20 team field. That is not to say that the FCS field should be expanded to some absurd number just to get more people interested. (Like the FBS Bowls! Holy Cow - did you see the FBS Bowl list today? The "Beef 'O' Brady's Bowl? The Pinstripe Bowl? The TicketCity Bowl? ) My position has always been that every FCS conference/league that qualifies should have an AQ. If the field has to be 22 or 24 to accomplish that.... so be it.

As someone who has lived outside of the I-AA/FCS bubble for most of my adult life, I have to say that outside of the bubble, the DII and DIII playoffs have had more recognition than the I-AA/FCS playoffs. That is slowly changing, and the top-to-bottom improvements in the "product" of the FCS (including expanding the playoffs) are playing a major role.

[89Hen]

You're calling bullshit on the fact that it is moving slowly?

When did I "sit (here) and tell (you) that PFL teams can't get anyone to play them"? You're thinking of your good friend, DF! I've never said anything of the sort.

You putting words into my mouth is...

Bullshit.

I have stated NUMEROUS times - here, on AGS, and on the PFL board when I used to post there, that the PFL scheduling needs to improve. And Butler has been one of the biggest offenders. In Butler's defense, the program was that close to being cut after winning only 3 games in 3 seasons and going 0-11 in 2005. Apparently, the absurd contract with Albion was made for 10 years! Butler has started to upgrade their schedule with teams such as Youngstown State. I cannot speak for Dayton. (They lost to my Dukes this year! )

When Butler was 11-1 last year, did you hear a single Butler supporter whine about not getting an at-large bid? I didn't. Direct your cries of "bullshit" elsewhere.

Final observation... Do you really want to use Hofstra as an example of how to handle an FCS football program?

You said it's a slow process. Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but who is making it slow? It certainly doesn't have to be slow, it would seem the PFL is making it such. If that's the case, they don't deserve a bid, either auto or at-large IMO.

I'm not sure I've seen more than one Butler supporter anywhere. But surely you remember the dozens of San Diego supporters flooding the AGS boards several years ago demanding a bid.

As for Hofstra, their stubborn administration has little to do using them as an example of how to go about getting a playoff spot. Too many PFL fans dodge all the examples of indies (and Big South in the case of CCU) who have made the field without an auto. DF is the king of that and I'm sorry if you end up getting lumped in with them.

[CoachL]

If the PFL wants in the playoffs, then simply ask for the autobid. If they only just asked for one earlier this year for the first time ever, then they'll probably get the AQ in a year or two like the Big South and NEC did. It's really that easy. If you want into the playoffs, then ask.

As you know, the PFL has asked. Now the playoffs need to be expanded to accommodate them, unless the MEAC drops out.

Of course the other option is to play a schedule that would make you worthy of making the playoffs ... But if you don't want to change the schedule and play a schedule that will get you into the playoffs, then ask for the autobid. Doing neither and then whining on message boards is just shouting at the wind.

Agreed. No argument from me!

[89Hen]

The FCS (Football Cost-Containment Subdivision) 20 team field has more interest and support than the FCS 16 team field.

How so? It only generated more interest at the 4 schools that would have otherwise been left off. It has NOT generated more interest in John Q. If we are to be happy with 4 more schools bringing a couple thousand fans to the internet to follow the playoffs, we should just go ahead and expand to 32 so we can have 12 more schools bringing a couple thousand fans to the internet. I doubt ESPN is going to televise any more games than they do now.

[CoachL]

You said it's a slow process. Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but who is making it slow? It certainly doesn't have to be slow, it would seem the PFL is making it such. If that's the case, they don't deserve a bid, either auto or at-large IMO.

I can't speak for Dayton or San Diego or anyone else. Butler is pulling itself out of a deep, dark hole and is improving their scheduling and played Youngstown State this year. Valparaiso has taken the cure and sworn off their old pledge of not playing full-scholarship teams and played Western Illinois. You know that schedules are most often made years in advance. Things take some time.

San Diego played Southern Utah and UC Davis this year. Jacksonville played Appalachian State (for the second time) and Old Dominion. Marist always plays a full DI schedule. Drake played Lehigh and Montana State. Campbell played Georgia State and Old Dominion. Davidson played Georgetown and Presbyterian. Morehead State played James Madison, Georgia State and St. Francis. We all know Dayton's schedule by heart!

I'm not sure I've seen more than one Butler supporter anywhere. But surely you remember the dozens of San Diego supporters flooding the AGS boards several years ago demanding a bid.

It might have been a good thing for the FCS to have had Harbaugh in the playoffs!

As for Hofstra,

I was just yankin' your chain!

DF is the king of that and I'm sorry if you end up getting lumped in with them.

Apology accepted!

[89Hen]

I can't speak for Dayton or San Diego or anyone else. Butler is pulling itself out of a deep, dark hole and is improving their scheduling and played Youngstown State this year. Valparaiso has taken the cure and sworn off their old pledge of not playing full-scholarship teams and played Western Illinois. You know that schedules are most often made years in advance. Things take some time.

San Diego played Southern Utah and UC Davis this year. Jacksonville played Appalachian State (for the second time) and Old Dominion. Marist always plays a full DI schedule. Drake played Lehigh and Montana State. Campbell played Georgia State and Old Dominion. Davidson played Georgetown and Presbyterian. Morehead State played James Madison, Georgia State and St. Francis. We all know Dayton's schedule by heart!

So there is a sun on the horizon. Now just win a couple of these games.

[CoachL]

The FCS (Football Cost-Containment Subdivision) 20 team field has more interest and support than the FCS 16 team field.

How so?

Small examples...

Duquesne did not make the playoffs, but I know that many Duquesne fans were (heaven help us!) rooting for their bitter local rivals, the Robert Morris Colonials, in the playoffs. (Pittsburgh media market)

Wagner did not make the playoffs, but I know that many Wagner fans were rooting for RMU in the playoffs. (New York media market)

The entire state of North Dakota has caught "Bison Fever".

It is the collection of all these small steps that makes a difference. The I-AA/FCS Playoffs have been pretty much a total non-event in American college sports. Folks in places like Delaware have considered it to be a big thing, but outside of this little sandbox, NO ONE CARES.

People here whine about how ESPN sucks because they pay so little attention to FCS football. DUH! ESPN is in business to make money. They don't make money talking about or broadcasting games no one cares about.

The FCS Playoffs will never command the attention that the FBS Bowls command, but it can get better. A somewhat bigger sandbox is one way to do that, in my opinion.

[89Hen]

Duquesne did not make the playoffs, but I know that many Duquesne fans were (heaven help us!) rooting for their bitter local rivals, the Robert Morris Colonials, in the playoffs. (Pittsburgh media market)

Wagner did not make the playoffs, but I know that many Wagner fans were rooting for RMU in the playoffs. (New York media market)

Tell me you're kidding.

[CoachL]

SMALL examples!

Baby steps.... baby steps...

A few hundred more people care about the FCS Playoffs? Wow! That's what.... a 20% increase?



I know it's hard for a Delaware fan to comprehend this, but...

NO ONE CARES!

Getting three more people on the bus to Hoboken to care about the FCS Playoffs is a step in the right direction.

And yes, I was being (only somewhat) facetious.

[CoachL]

I apologize for being a part of the hijacking of this thread that was meant to be a tirade about how the PFL was screwed again this year by not getting an at-large bid.



Carry on!

[89Hen]

I know it's hard for a Delaware fan to comprehend this, but...

NO ONE CARES!

Why do you think I don't know this? I love I-AA football and don't care if the rest of the country would rather watch the Massengill Douche Bowl.

[Appaholic]

Good Lord! You really want to go out further on this tangent? Fine.

The cost of Butler is $29,740 dollars.

Wrong. The full cost of attending Butler (a "full ride" athletic scholarship equivalent) is, according to Butler's web site: $40,438+ "Full ride" athletic scholarships cover everything; tuition, room & board, books, fees.

The cost at Appalachian State for in state is $5,460.74, for out of state it is $16,722.

Wrong again. The full cost of attending Appalachian State ("full ride" blah, blah, blah) is, according to the ASU web site: $11,220+ for in-state and $22,532+ for out-of-state.

It barely costs more for a year at ASU for a non North Carolina resident than it costs for a semester at Butler. Of course a Butler student is going to get more in aid - especially compared to a NC resident at ASU - 100% of their tuition in grant is equal to 18% of a Butler students tuition What's your point in all of that?

My simple point was that some people question PFL schools' "financial commitment" to football because they don't offer athletic scholarships. They go further and say that since PFL schools don't have the same financial commitment as other FCS schools (Appalachian State for example), they are asking for "welfare" and don't deserve an AQ or any consideration for an at-large. To that I say.... BULLSHIT.

More than likely, Butler awards more in grant/scholarship money to its football players than does a school like Appalachian State. If it is not more, it is certainly not much less. It just comes from a different pocket. The grant money that my older son receives from Butler is greater than the amount of a full athletic scholarship for an out-of-state football player at Appalachian State, and he no longer plays football.

All that proves is that Butler is over-priced, not that they have the same level of commitment to their athletic programs. I'm with you as far as all FCS conference champs should be given an AQ but if the schools don't fund athletic scholarships, they should move to D2 with Davidson and the like...there's no shame in that...

[Ivytalk]

This has been a fun thread to read! Really!

[DSUrocks07]

Ok hypothetical...say if the PFL had an AQ this year....

A) who would get it?

and

B) would the team who didn't THEN have an argument for an at-large?