Should Mont, Sac n Liberty be ranked?

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

how do you rank which teams are the 25 best teams in the country? It's an annoying question at this point of the season in many ways in both FCS and FBS because you have teams at the top that are hard to separate from each other- App State, Villanova, James Madison, Jacksonville State... any one of those four can be #1.

i think Sacramento State is looking very good right now

I line mine out on an excel sheet, I usually have 35-40 teams under consideration after my reading on Sunday mornings. I place them, go check a couple of things as relates to what they did over the past 3 weeks and I look for bad losses or good wins to move them up or down. When I get to a point where it just comes down to opinion I start to think "If these teams went head to head who would win?" and then I do a little final juggling in that respect AFTER I have them sorta placed base on what they've done so far.

All of the top 4 or 5 teams are really equal so you just have to use your own opinion as to which is better.

[ToTheLeft]

I have a vote in AGS....

Montana #16
Sacramento St. #21
Liberty #NR

Take that for face value

Okay, I'm going to try and be tactful here...

That doesn't make any sense. At all. Montana has won NO GAMES against anyone who counts. At this point, they're a loss away from getting a max of 7 D-I wins. I know they're "The Griz" but that's no excuse.

We've beat a decent limited scholly FCS team by a ton, and an FBS team that probably compares to a decent to good FCS team on the road. We lost to a top tier limited scholly FCS team on the road by a small margin.

We have the better resume, and it's not close. You can't be a 16th ranked team without a win! I'm sorry, but that's stubborn voting if you're holding onto their preseason rating. They're a new team with a new coach, poor quarterbacking, and a lack of discipline. They don't belong that high. I can understand borderline top 25, maybe, if you just couldn't think of anyone else to add to the end. But there's plenty of teams that belong ahead of UM at 16.

[Green Cookie Monster]

I give them credit for beating 3 FCS teams. They may not be good, but it is better than beating DII or having multiple loses. I doubt they will stay ranked past weeks 4 or 5, but I think they deserve the #25 spot.

Doesn't that depend on the DII team? Central Washington now gets a bunch of kids that lost scholarships at at the DI level , they lost by 3 to the Griz in Missoula 2 years ago, and I've talked to several people in our program who said without a doubt, we were more beat up after Central Washington than Nevada, and the Wildcats were just as physical a team.

It's been brought up before but certain DII programs should get every bit as much consideration in polling and counting toward the 7 win threshold as FCS non and partial scholarship conferences.

The remaining D2 teams in the far west are very good. They have little competition, reduced admissions criteria and can sit back and pick off the FCS/FBS second and third teamers who want to play now. Central Washignton (EWU), Western Oregon (Sac St) and Humboldt (Cal Poly) have played three FCS teams very tight this year.

[clenz]

I have a vote in AGS....

Montana #16
Sacramento St. #21
Liberty #NR

Take that for face value

Okay, I'm going to try and be tactful here...

That doesn't make any sense. At all. Montana has won NO GAMES against anyone who counts. At this point, they're a loss away from getting a max of 7 D-I wins. I know they're "The Griz" but that's no excuse.

We've beat a decent limited scholly FCS team by a ton, and an FBS team that probably compares to a decent to good FCS team on the road. We lost to a top tier limited scholly FCS team on the road by a small margin.

We have the better resume, and it's not close. You can't be a 16th ranked team without a win! I'm sorry, but that's stubborn voting if you're holding onto their preseason rating. They're a new team with a new coach, poor quarterbacking, and a lack of discipline. They don't belong that high. I can understand borderline top 25, maybe, if you just couldn't think of anyone else to add to the end. But there's plenty of teams that belong ahead of UM at 16.

Not that I disagree with your principle, but I'd put money on Montana over Liberty if the game was tomorrow.

FWIW, I don't have Montana ranked and do have Liberty.

[ToTheLeft]

Okay, I'm going to try and be tactful here...

That doesn't make any sense. At all. Montana has won NO GAMES against anyone who counts. At this point, they're a loss away from getting a max of 7 D-I wins. I know they're "The Griz" but that's no excuse.

We've beat a decent limited scholly FCS team by a ton, and an FBS team that probably compares to a decent to good FCS team on the road. We lost to a top tier limited scholly FCS team on the road by a small margin.

We have the better resume, and it's not close. You can't be a 16th ranked team without a win! I'm sorry, but that's stubborn voting if you're holding onto their preseason rating. They're a new team with a new coach, poor quarterbacking, and a lack of discipline. They don't belong that high. I can understand borderline top 25, maybe, if you just couldn't think of anyone else to add to the end. But there's plenty of teams that belong ahead of UM at 16.

Not that I disagree with your principle, but I'd put money on Montana over Liberty if the game was tomorrow.

FWIW, I don't have Montana ranked and do have Liberty.

Well yeah, I don't think Alabama State (or whatever SWAC team that's 3-0) could beat a majority of the teams I have unranked, but I have them ranked because they've won.

The poll isn't a "Who could beat who" list. If that was the case, my poll would be...

1. Griz at home
2. App at home
3. Nova at home

etc...

Despite their struggles, the Griz could beat any FCS team on any given day. Especially if the game was in WaGriz. But their resume doesn't prove that. And that's what I based my rankings on.

Although I do think LU would have a shot against a Griz team that gives the ball away as much as this one does.

[weberwildcat]

Not that I disagree with your principle, but I'd put money on Montana over Liberty if the game was tomorrow.

FWIW, I don't have Montana ranked and do have Liberty.

Well yeah, I don't think Alabama State (or whatever SWAC team that's 3-0) could beat a majority of the teams I have unranked, but I have them ranked because they've won.

The poll isn't a "Who could beat who" list. If that was the case, my poll would be...

1. Griz at home
2. App at home
3. Nova at home

etc...

Despite their struggles, the Griz could beat any FCS team on any given day. Especially if the game was in WaGriz. But their resume doesn't prove that. And that's what I based my rankings on.

Although I do think LU would have a shot against a Griz team that gives the ball away as much as this one does.

who could beat who isnt a factor for me, also, i wont move a team down for winning. only when they lose do they go down.

[ATrain]

I don't have Montana or Sac State ranked. A few of my votes I just put in b/c the teams have a winning Div. I record right now and a lot of other teams lost. Liberty is ranked at #20 on my ballot. This was a tough week.

[AZGrizFan]

Well yeah, I don't think Alabama State (or whatever SWAC team that's 3-0) could beat a majority of the teams I have unranked, but I have them ranked because they've won.

The poll isn't a "Who could beat who" list. If that was the case, my poll would be...

1. Griz at home
2. App at home
3. Nova at home

etc...

Despite their struggles, the Griz could beat any FCS team on any given day. Especially if the game was in WaGriz. But their resume doesn't prove that. And that's what I based my rankings on.

Although I do think LU would have a shot against a Griz team that gives the ball away as much as this one does.

Well, that's just assinine. If you don't think Alabama State could beat a majority of the teams you left off the list, then Alabama State is NOT one of the 25 best teams in the nation.

This isn't a poll of who has the best "record" it's a poll of who you think is the best 25 teams in the country. Here's a tidbit for you: I don't have Montana ranked in the top 20, but if they'd started out with UNC and ISU at home instead of Cal Poly and EWU on the road, they'd more than likely be 3-0 and ranked #1. It's all about perspective....who would beat who DEFINITELY plays into the equation. If it didn't, the undefeated winner of the Patriot League would be ranked #1 every year.

[clenz]

I agree with Z to an extent. If I have two teams going for a spot, I give the nod to a team I think would win. However, that isn't how i determine all of my spots.

[ToTheLeft]

So, I'd like to see your poll Z, to make sure that it's in perfect order of who can beat who.

Thanks.

[AZGrizFan]

So, I'd like to see your poll Z, to make sure that it's in perfect order of who can beat who.

Thanks.

Well, that WOULD be special, but it's not what I said.

I said it "plays into the equation".

[ToTheLeft]

So, I'd like to see your poll Z, to make sure that it's in perfect order of who can beat who.

Thanks.

Well, that WOULD be special, but it's not what I said.

I said it "plays into the equation".

Yes, and while Griz could beat Alabama State, ASU has 3 Division I wins, Griz have none.

Resume wise, they're not in the same league. ASU is dominant in that department.

I don't think anyone has identical resumes, but if they were close, of course you're going to pick the "better team"

If there's a toss up in my poll between a 7-4 Griz and a 10-1 SWAC team, the Griz will jump them (assuming the SWAC team didn't beat the Griz or a comparable opponent.

[AZGrizFan]

Well, that WOULD be special, but it's not what I said.

I said it "plays into the equation".

Yes, and while Griz could beat Alabama State, ASU has 3 Division I wins, Griz have none.

Resume wise, they're not in the same league. ASU is dominant in that department.

I don't think anyone has identical resumes, but if they were close, of course you're going to pick the "better team"

If there's a toss up in my poll between a 7-4 Griz and a 10-1 SWAC team, the Griz will jump them (assuming the SWAC team didn't beat the Griz or a comparable opponent.

Again, It's not a poll of the 25 best RECORDS. It's a poll of the 25 best TEAMS. Why is that so hard for people to understand?

[Jibjab]

Yes, and while Griz could beat Alabama State, ASU has 3 Division I wins, Griz have none.

Resume wise, they're not in the same league. ASU is dominant in that department.

I don't think anyone has identical resumes, but if they were close, of course you're going to pick the "better team"

If there's a toss up in my poll between a 7-4 Griz and a 10-1 SWAC team, the Griz will jump them (assuming the SWAC team didn't beat the Griz or a comparable opponent.

Again, It's not a poll of the 25 best RECORDS. It's a poll of the 25 best TEAMS. Why is that so hard for people to understand?

Exactly. Alabama State looks good on PAPER, but in actuality Montana could wipe their ass clean with them 99 times outta 100.

The pollsters do look at over all records, but they factor in a bunch of other things. Like who can beat who, strength of schedule, conference you play in, even who you are, etc. Put ASU in the big sky and they'd be UNC status.

Why do you think Boise St. still doesn't get respected, because of the league they play and people still aren't convinced that if you were to put them in the Pac 10 or Big 12 they could still do the same thing. Who knows.

[mcveyrl]

Yes, and while Griz could beat Alabama State, ASU has 3 Division I wins, Griz have none.

Resume wise, they're not in the same league. ASU is dominant in that department.

I don't think anyone has identical resumes, but if they were close, of course you're going to pick the "better team"

If there's a toss up in my poll between a 7-4 Griz and a 10-1 SWAC team, the Griz will jump them (assuming the SWAC team didn't beat the Griz or a comparable opponent.

Again, It's not a poll of the 25 best RECORDS. It's a poll of the 25 best TEAMS. Why is that so hard for people to understand?

Wait a minute...weren't you the guy that said a 2-3 JMU shouldn't be in the poll last year?? We had one bad loss (Hofstra), an overtime FBS loss and were five yards from beating UR (Ranked #1). Wins against Liberty and VMI. But it was laughable that we were in the Top 25. How are the Griz, to this point, any different?

[ToTheLeft]

Yes, and while Griz could beat Alabama State, ASU has 3 Division I wins, Griz have none.

Resume wise, they're not in the same league. ASU is dominant in that department.

I don't think anyone has identical resumes, but if they were close, of course you're going to pick the "better team"

If there's a toss up in my poll between a 7-4 Griz and a 10-1 SWAC team, the Griz will jump them (assuming the SWAC team didn't beat the Griz or a comparable opponent.

Again, It's not a poll of the 25 best RECORDS. It's a poll of the 25 best TEAMS. Why is that so hard for people to understand?

Then post your poll! Let's see brilliance in action!

There are no good teams for that 18-25 range. ASU has won 3 games, they got the spot. I'm not going to put in a team that hasn't won a DI game yet, regardless of how historic their program is or how much CS.com users think they could beat Alabama State by!

Who else are you going to put in at the bottom of your poll? I mean, I didn't plan on including UNH but the fact is that they won big against an FCS opponent, and at this point, that's one of the better resumes out there!

So I'm not basing it on record, I'm basing it on overall resume. The Griz and many other teams that are probably "better than" Alabama State have no resume, and don't justify being in my poll!

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Again, It's not a poll of the 25 best RECORDS. It's a poll of the 25 best TEAMS. Why is that so hard for people to understand?

Exactly. Alabama State looks good on PAPER, but in actuality Montana could wipe their ass clean with them 99 times outta 100.

The pollsters do look at over all records, but they factor in a bunch of other things. Like who can beat who, strength of schedule, conference you play in, even who you are, etc. Put ASU in the big sky and they'd be UNC status.

Why do you think Boise St. still doesn't get respected, because of the league they play and people still aren't convinced that if you were to put them in the Pac 10 or Big 12 they could still do the same thing. Who knows.

I never get the chance to say this to you so I'm gonna do it now...great post.

I do it like jj says here. I look at the record against who they played firs, If they've got a couple of wins against suspect competition I give them a little cred for the wins and then move on to the strength of the competition and if I think they are a better team than one that doesn't have as good a record.

If you are trying to put the 25 best teams in the poll then I don't knwo how you can go off of just the record. There is a reason that a 7-4 CAA team will (and should) get in over a an 8-3 Big South or a 10-1 Pioneer team.

One thing that I did with the Griz this week is look at some of the teams I was ranking them against and ask myself how many of these teams do I think would probably be 0-2 in road games at Cal Poly and EWU. There were quite a few and for that reason I left the Griz in my poll at #25.

[SuperHornet]

The first couple are going to be hard as heck, regardless of one's philosophy. Once one has this week's base, it should be a bit easier to make adjustments using future results. Yes, we're going to have issues with ECB and certain people's extreme myopia (yes, I'll cop to it), but it'll settle out by about Week 5 or 6 or so, I'm sure.

[GoAgs72]

In the AGS poll I had Montana at #21 and Sac State and Liberty unranked. If Sac State keeps winning I don't see why they would not be ranked. Voters know more about the past rankings of Liberty and Montana but past history will only carry you so far.

[GoAgs72]

deleted

[AZGrizFan]

Again, It's not a poll of the 25 best RECORDS. It's a poll of the 25 best TEAMS. Why is that so hard for people to understand?

Wait a minute...weren't you the guy that said a 2-3 JMU shouldn't be in the poll last year?? We had one bad loss (Hofstra), an overtime FBS loss and were five yards from beating UR (Ranked #1). Wins against Liberty and VMI. But it was laughable that we were in the Top 25. How are the Griz, to this point, any different?

It's not.

[AZGrizFan]

Then post your poll! Let's see brilliance in action!

So I'm not basing it on record, I'm basing it on overall resume. The Griz and many other teams that are probably "better than" Alabama State have no resume, and don't justify being in my poll!

a) I have already stated I made an error on my poll, and thus won't post it. I'll post it next week, if that makes you feel better.
b) ASU would be 0-3 with the Griz schedule. Their "resume" sucks.

[clenz]

Then post your poll! Let's see brilliance in action!

So I'm not basing it on record, I'm basing it on overall resume. The Griz and many other teams that are probably "better than" Alabama State have no resume, and don't justify being in my poll!

a) I have already stated I made an error on my poll, and thus won't post it. I'll post it next week, if that makes you feel better.
b) ASU would be 0-3 with the Griz schedule. Their "resume" sucks.

Same for me with A. Anytime I see the mistakes I made there...stupid shit too...I can't justify it being out there.

Tman said it wouldn't have really made a difference though with my "proper" picks so that made me feel better

[GrizFanStuckInUtah]

I'm not going to argue with anyone not putting Montana in the top 25 at this point. If we win a few games, we should get back up there in the 25 and I still think we have a playoff caliber team, we just need to prove it on the field.

[ToTheLeft]

Then post your poll! Let's see brilliance in action!

So I'm not basing it on record, I'm basing it on overall resume.The Griz and many other teams that are probably "better than" Alabama State have no resume, and don't justify being in my poll!

a) I have already stated I made an error on my poll, and thus won't post it. I'll post it next week, if that makes you feel better.
b) ASU would be 0-3 with the Griz schedule. Their "resume" sucks.

So only the mighty Griz can beat a non-top 25 DII team like Western State? Chadron State and Fort Hays State did it, too. I would bet good money ASU could pull it off and win by at least a couple scores against Western. They'd be 1-2, which, GUESS WHAT, is exactly what the Griz are!

With your logic, I think I'll leave the Griz out until the prove they can do something that Alabama State can't do.