General McChrystal - Dead Man Walking

[houndawg]

Very good question, GF.

IMO, we are losing because we're still there and have there longer than any other war in our history, we're losing because the mission has changed from Osama Dead or Alive to something else, (what exactly that something else is isn't clear), we're losing because we were galactically stupid enough to get involved in Afghanistan in spite of the Russian experience staring us in the face, and we're losing because we're expending billions of dollars of money we have to borrow from the Chinese on a war that doesn't do a damn thing for us.


Winning? At this point the best that could happen is that we kill Osama, declare victory, and go home. Unfortunately, since we don't even know what country Osama is in.

There IS something to be said for this take, dawg. But consider this: by your logic, we must be losing in Korea and Germany, where Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines are still based. Not a big deal in Germany, but those in Korea are still in a direct line of attack, and the situation there deteriorates by the day due to a demented demagogue in charge in North Korea. Yet I haven't heard a word about pulling our folk out of there.

Just consider that for a moment, dawg. Does that change your argument any?

I don't think so, I'm not sure we're using the same definition of losing and I don't think that either Korea or Germany and Afghanistan are a good comparison. We have spent and are spending stupendous amounts of tax revenue in Iraq and Afghanistan and we are in a worse position politically than when we first went in after bin Laden. Once again we find ourselves propping up an unpopular leader halfway around the world with no end in sight. And the Chinese are laughing all the way to the bank as they loan us the money to do it. And nobody wants to get serious about researching and developing alternatives to mid-east oil, alternatives that could result in huge savings in the defense budget.

[AZGrizFan]

There IS something to be said for this take, dawg. But consider this: by your logic, we must be losing in Korea and Germany, where Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines are still based. Not a big deal in Germany, but those in Korea are still in a direct line of attack, and the situation there deteriorates by the day due to a demented demagogue in charge in North Korea. Yet I haven't heard a word about pulling our folk out of there.

Just consider that for a moment, dawg. Does that change your argument any?

I don't think so, I'm not sure we're using the same definition of losing and I don't think that either Korea or Germany and Afghanistan are a good comparison. We have spent and are spending stupendous amounts of tax revenue in Iraq and Afghanistan and we are in a worse position politically than when we first went in after bin Laden. Once again we find ourselves propping up an unpopular leader halfway around the world with no end in sight. And the Chinese are laughing all the way to the bank as they loan us the money to do it. And nobody wants to get serious about researching and developing alternatives to mid-east oil, alternatives that could result in huge savings in the defense budget.

Agreed 100%.

[mrklean]

There IS something to be said for this take, dawg. But consider this: by your logic, we must be losing in Korea and Germany, where Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines are still based. Not a big deal in Germany, but those in Korea are still in a direct line of attack, and the situation there deteriorates by the day due to a demented demagogue in charge in North Korea. Yet I haven't heard a word about pulling our folk out of there.

Just consider that for a moment, dawg. Does that change your argument any?

I don't think so, I'm not sure we're using the same definition of losing and I don't think that either Korea or Germany and Afghanistan are a good comparison. We have spent and are spending stupendous amounts of tax revenue in Iraq and Afghanistan and we are in a worse position politically than when we first went in after bin Laden. Once again we find ourselves propping up an unpopular leader halfway around the world with no end in sight. And the Chinese are laughing all the way to the bank as they loan us the money to do it. And nobody wants to get serious about researching and developing alternatives to mid-east oil, alternatives that could result in huge savings in the defense budget.

That's too much like right!!

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

I don't think so, I'm not sure we're using the same definition of losing and I don't think that either Korea or Germany and Afghanistan are a good comparison. We have spent and are spending stupendous amounts of tax revenue in Iraq and Afghanistan and we are in a worse position politically than when we first went in after bin Laden. Once again we find ourselves propping up an unpopular leader halfway around the world with no end in sight. And the Chinese are laughing all the way to the bank as they loan us the money to do it. And nobody wants to get serious about researching and developing alternatives to mid-east oil, alternatives that could result in huge savings in the defense budget.

Agreed 100%.

Add another to his tally.

[JohnStOnge]

I understand what had to happen and I also think that a person in that position should resign before he says anything. But the sad thing is that the one who doesn't know what he's doing as Commander in Chief is going to continue functioning without knowing what he's doing while the one that knows what he's doing as a general is out.

That, for better or for worse, is our system.

[mrklean]

I understand what had to happen and I also think that a person in that position should resign before he says anything. But the sad thing is that the one who doesn't know what he's doing as Commander in Chief is going to continue functioning without knowing what he's doing while the one that knows what he's doing as a general is out.

That, for better or for worse, is our system.

Afghanistan is a no win situation. IF we cant find Bin Liden then we need to get out now.

[JohnStOnge]

Afghanistan is a no win situation. IF we cant find Bin Liden then we need to get out now.

I disagree. I think that it's extremely important that we show "staying power." I think it's extremely important that we show that we don't worry about how long it takes.

I don't think we'll do it, but I think that's what's needed because we are dealing with an enemy such that its only hope is to outlast us...to be more persistent. We, as a nation, have shown that we have no patience in war. We've shown that we need a quick, clean ending or we freak out and want to quit.

Until we do something to show that we're not like that we have no shot against this enemy.

Unfortunately, we ARE like that.

[mrklean]

Afghanistan is a no win situation. IF we cant find Bin Liden then we need to get out now.

I disagree. I think that it's extremely important that we show "staying power." I think it's extremely important that we show that we don't worry about how long it takes.

I don't think we'll do it, but I think that's what's needed because we are dealing with an enemy such that its only hope is to outlast us...to be more persistent. We, as a nation, have shown that we have no patience in war. We've shown that we need a quick, clean ending or we freak out and want to quit.

Until we do something to show that we're not like that we have no shot against this enemy.

Unfortunately, we ARE like that.

Dude what the hell are you smoking dude. We cant change the country because they dont want to change. The U.S Needs to stop being the World Policeman.

[Chizzang]

I think that it's extremely important that we show "staying power." I think it's extremely important that we show that we don't worry about how long it takes.

I don't think we'll do it, but I think that's what's needed because we are dealing with an enemy such that its only hope is to outlast us...to be more persistent. We, as a nation, have shown that we have no patience in war. We've shown that we need a quick, clean ending or we freak out and want to quit.

Until we do something to show that we're not like that we have no shot against this enemy.

Unfortunately, we ARE like that.

The above post is called: "Fear Based Ideological Rhetoric"

[native]

...the Chinese are laughing all the way to the bank as they loan us the money to do it.....

The most salient point you have ever made, dawg.

[BDKJMU]

Last May Obama fired the Afghanistan commander, W&M grad, 4 star Gen McKiernan, and now McCrystal 13 months later. Well, technically both resigned...

[YoUDeeMan]

...the Chinese are laughing all the way to the bank as they loan us the money to do it.....

The most salient point you have ever made, dawg.

Nah...we'll just walk away from our loan obligations and leave the Chinese holding a bunch of worthless IOUs. It has become the American way.

[native]

I disagree. I think that it's extremely important that we show "staying power." I think it's extremely important that we show that we don't worry about how long it takes.

I don't think we'll do it, but I think that's what's needed because we are dealing with an enemy such that its only hope is to outlast us...to be more persistent. We, as a nation, have shown that we have no patience in war. We've shown that we need a quick, clean ending or we freak out and want to quit.

Until we do something to show that we're not like that we have no shot against this enemy.

Unfortunately, we ARE like that.

Dude what the hell are you smoking dude. We cant change the country because they dont want to change. The U.S Needs to stop being the World Policeman.

We changed Japan and Germany, klean; enough to make a big, peaceful difference.

They didn't want to change, either.

Just as Afghanistan has never been permanently conquered, Japan had never been conquered, either.

[mrklean]

Dude what the hell are you smoking dude. We cant change the country because they dont want to change. The U.S Needs to stop being the World Policeman.

We changed Japan and Germany, klean; enough to make a big, peaceful difference.

They didn't want to change, either.

Yeah and it did not take 8 years doing it.

[native]

We changed Japan and Germany, klean; enough to make a big, peaceful difference.

They didn't want to change, either.

Yeah and it did not take 8 years doing it.

We are still occupying Japan, klean. That makes 69 years and counting...

[SuperHornet]

I'm confused by this, native.

We agree that McChrystal had to go. So far so good.

But essentially, what Obama has done is not only sack an insubordinate nincompoop but simultaneously DEMOTE the guy who should have reined him in. Petraeus should have been held responsible for failing to take action on McChrystal long ago.

That said, it's going to look funny having another general over Petraeus.

BTW, did you hear the names that were in discussions for the position? I understand Mattis. He's had desert experience before. (The Army would have screamed bloody murder at seeing this post go to a Marine, though.) But ADM Stavridis?!? Afghanistan is practically landlocked. That move would have made no sense whatsoever.

in the last 40 years the U.S. Marine Corps has helped the U.S. Army in several Wars. The last Amphibious Landing the Marines participated in was over 40 years ago. The U.S. Army and Marines Corps mission have become one and the same.

Maybe. The problem with that scenario is that the Marines typically do the job better, and their strategic placement in the Department of the Navy always engenders jealous feelings. It wasn't too long ago that the Army tried to absorb the Corps. The problem with THAT, of course, is that the American people would never allow that.

[SeattleGriz]

I disagree. I think that it's extremely important that we show "staying power." I think it's extremely important that we show that we don't worry about how long it takes.

I don't think we'll do it, but I think that's what's needed because we are dealing with an enemy such that its only hope is to outlast us...to be more persistent. We, as a nation, have shown that we have no patience in war. We've shown that we need a quick, clean ending or we freak out and want to quit.

Until we do something to show that we're not like that we have no shot against this enemy.

Unfortunately, we ARE like that.

Dude what the hell are you smoking dude. We cant change the country because they dont want to change. The U.S Needs to stop being the World Policeman.

You know as well as I do, we need to pave that shit over and not look back. We are looking for an ass smooching with everything we do over in Afghany. Fuck that.

[houndawg]

I don't think so, I'm not sure we're using the same definition of losing and I don't think that either Korea or Germany and Afghanistan are a good comparison. We have spent and are spending stupendous amounts of tax revenue in Iraq and Afghanistan and we are in a worse position politically than when we first went in after bin Laden. Once again we find ourselves propping up an unpopular leader halfway around the world with no end in sight. And the Chinese are laughing all the way to the bank as they loan us the money to do it. And nobody wants to get serious about researching and developing alternatives to mid-east oil, alternatives that could result in huge savings in the defense budget.

Agreed 100%.

Don't do that, it makes me paranoid..

[houndawg]

in the last 40 years the U.S. Marine Corps has helped the U.S. Army in several Wars. The last Amphibious Landing the Marines participated in was over 40 years ago. The U.S. Army and Marines Corps mission have become one and the same.

Maybe. The problem with that scenario is that the Marines typically do the job better, and their strategic placement in the Department of the Navy always engenders jealous feelings. It wasn't too long ago that the Army tried to absorb the Corps. The problem with THAT, of course, is that the American people would never allow that.

Depends on when and where the job is, I guess. My wife's father was a Navy amphib at Okinawa and he thought just the opposite.

[GannonFan]

There IS something to be said for this take, dawg. But consider this: by your logic, we must be losing in Korea and Germany, where Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines are still based. Not a big deal in Germany, but those in Korea are still in a direct line of attack, and the situation there deteriorates by the day due to a demented demagogue in charge in North Korea. Yet I haven't heard a word about pulling our folk out of there.

Just consider that for a moment, dawg. Does that change your argument any?

I don't think so, I'm not sure we're using the same definition of losing and I don't think that either Korea or Germany and Afghanistan are a good comparison. We have spent and are spending stupendous amounts of tax revenue in Iraq and Afghanistan and we are in a worse position politically than when we first went in after bin Laden. Once again we find ourselves propping up an unpopular leader halfway around the world with no end in sight. And the Chinese are laughing all the way to the bank as they loan us the money to do it. And nobody wants to get serious about researching and developing alternatives to mid-east oil, alternatives that could result in huge savings in the defense budget.

I don't disagree with concept that we're spending a fortune between Iraq and Afghanistan - obviously we are. But as for the political position, I don't see us being worse off. Iraq is clearly better today than it was 10 years ago under Hussein and while Afghanistan is a mess, it's still better today than it was 10 years ago when terrorist camps were numerous and free to operate out in the open. And heck, with Bush gone and Obama in his place, the perception of other countries towards the US is almost more positive across the board so we're better off there too.

We can all argue about how we got here and if the right decisions were made for the right reasons over the duration of both Iraq and Afghanistan, but it's hard to see that politically we're worse off today than we were before either conflict occurred. At times during each conflict we were certainly worse off, but today, I just don't see that.

And as for the Chinese, why are they laughing? They're in the same boat as we are and we're tied together at the hip - if we go down, they go down with us. Probably more than any other country, China is very interested in America avoiding economic disaster.

As for victory in Afghanistan, it's never going to be a long lasting victory. We can go in, disrupt and scatter the terrorist elements, but unless we stay there indefinitely, we'll probably have to go back in again 5 or 10 or 20 years from now. That's not defeat, that's just the realization that that country is just so far backwards that there's nothing there for us to hope will hold up a modern civilization - no economy, no infrastructure, and no political establishment. We talk about nation building elsewhere, but wherever it's been done there's been an actual nation already in place and we or others just helped patch it up. There's no real nation in Afghanistan - it's just a no man's land that no one really wants.

[CID1990]

1. General McChrystal was absolutely right in his assessment of the current administration. It has never been a mystery what he thought, and, quite frankly I don't know how anyone could have expected differently. Obama never has and never will understand the military or military strategy on a national level. Not a whack on Obama, just a fact. He's a lawyer, not a soldier.

2. McChrystal should be sacked for what he said. Period. Regardless of how inept the political leadership is, one of the base foundations of our country is civilian control of the military. There is no way around this. The founding fathers knew that this was important, just like they knew that an armed civilian populace was important, and they made it abundantly clear. There is no apology that McChrystal could possibly make that would make me think he should keep his job. Part of being a good American soldier is knowing when to shut your goddamn mouth. McChrystal stepped over that line and should go. I do not care if he is the best man for the job. If failure in Afghanistan is our future, then it will be Obama's load to carry, and Obama is the one who left a reticent McChrystal in place, even when he already had good evidence that he (Obama) was not trusted in military circles. If Obama wanted a yes man in Afghanistan then he should have re-activated Wesley Clark.

3. I like pie.

[CID1990]

I don't think so, I'm not sure we're using the same definition of losing and I don't think that either Korea or Germany and Afghanistan are a good comparison. We have spent and are spending stupendous amounts of tax revenue in Iraq and Afghanistan and we are in a worse position politically than when we first went in after bin Laden. Once again we find ourselves propping up an unpopular leader halfway around the world with no end in sight. And the Chinese are laughing all the way to the bank as they loan us the money to do it. And nobody wants to get serious about researching and developing alternatives to mid-east oil, alternatives that could result in huge savings in the defense budget.

I don't disagree with concept that we're spending a fortune between Iraq and Afghanistan - obviously we are. But as for the political position, I don't see us being worse off. Iraq is clearly better today than it was 10 years ago under Hussein and while Afghanistan is a mess, it's still better today than it was 10 years ago when terrorist camps were numerous and free to operate out in the open. And heck, with Bush gone and Obama in his place, the perception of other countries towards the US is almost more positive across the board so we're better off there too.

We can all argue about how we got here and if the right decisions were made for the right reasons over the duration of both Iraq and Afghanistan, but it's hard to see that politically we're worse off today than we were before either conflict occurred. At times during each conflict we were certainly worse off, but today, I just don't see that.

And as for the Chinese, why are they laughing? They're in the same boat as we are and we're tied together at the hip - if we go down, they go down with us. Probably more than any other country, China is very interested in America avoiding economic disaster.

As for victory in Afghanistan, it's never going to be a long lasting victory. We can go in, disrupt and scatter the terrorist elements, but unless we stay there indefinitely, we'll probably have to go back in again 5 or 10 or 20 years from now. That's not defeat, that's just the realization that that country is just so far backwards that there's nothing there for us to hope will hold up a modern civilization - no economy, no infrastructure, and no political establishment. We talk about nation building elsewhere, but wherever it's been done there's been an actual nation already in place and we or others just helped patch it up. There's no real nation in Afghanistan - it's just a no man's land that no one really wants.

Oh, and BTW I support this post.

[native]

... If failure in Afghanistan is our future, then it will be Obama's load to carry, and Obama is the one who left a reticent McChrystal in place, even when he already had good evidence that he (Obama) was not trusted in military circles. If Obama wanted a yes man in Afghanistan then he should have re-activated Wesley Clark...

QFT!

[AZGrizFan]

Afghanistan is a no win situation. IF we cant find Bin Liden then we need to get out now.

I disagree. I think that it's extremely important that we show "staying power." I think it's extremely important that we show that we don't worry about how long it takes.

I don't think we'll do it, but I think that's what's needed because we are dealing with an enemy such that its only hope is to outlast us...to be more persistent. We, as a nation, have shown that we have no patience in war. We've shown that we need a quick, clean ending or we freak out and want to quit.

Until we do something to show that we're not like that we have no shot against this enemy.

Unfortunately, we ARE like that.

You answered your own question, JSO. We ARE like that, so lets get the fuck OUT. NOW.

[AZGrizFan]

Agreed 100%.

Don't do that, it makes me paranoid..