General McChrystal - Dead Man Walking

[Col Hogan]

Interesting. I was reading an article that stated McChrystal has imposed some really weak rules of engagement on the troops and is depressing their morale, not to mention their effectiveness.

Apparently the troops blame Obama for the weak ROE, which are reminiscent of shamefully weak ROE in previous lost wars. I look forward to what is really in the Rolling Stone article.

Actually, McChrystal has imposed very restrictive ROEs, which has had a negative impact on troops morale...but is in the end helping with the "win the minds and hearts" campaign...

[mrklean]

Apparently the troops blame Obama for the weak ROE, which are reminiscent of shamefully weak ROE in previous lost wars. I look forward to what is really in the Rolling Stone article.

Weak ROE is not why we're losing in Afghanistan, Nate, and you trying to link them with lost wars is simply another of your bald faced lies.


The Russians killed anything that moved and went after children with land mine toys, a straight up terror campaign, and the Afghans threw them out like they've done to everybody else who has invaded them throughout their history. The problem is that there is no military solution to Afghanistan, not weak ROE.

Repukes and Facts dont mix......................

[mrklean]

Good for McChrystal, he should be looking out for his men and if the unqualified community organizer doesnt like it he can go fu*k himself.

Obama is clueless and is putting our troops in harms way for poll numbers. His input should be disregarded because he really doesnt have the brain or experience to run our military.

Hes no Bush, that much is certain.

Such a GOP Dick rider.............................lol

[native]

Apparently the troops blame Obama for the weak ROE, which are reminiscent of shamefully weak ROE in previous lost wars. I look forward to what is really in the Rolling Stone article.

Weak ROE is not why we're losing in Afghanistan, Nate, and you trying to link them with lost wars is simply another of your bald faced lies.

The Russians killed anything that moved and went after children with land mine toys, a straight up terror campaign, and the Afghans threw them out like they've done to everybody else who has invaded them throughout their history. The problem is that there is no military solution to Afghanistan, not weak ROE.

The troops of today are not as weak minded, drugged out and irresponsible as you were in the day, sad sack. If you were either sober or honest you might be able to recognize and acknowledge that there exist substantive differences in ROE from one war to another, from one theater to another, and even from one operation to another. In particular, Obama and McChrystal are using ROE in Afghanistan that are different from, and in my opinion weaker than, previous ROE. This is neither a truth nor a lie, but my opinion and a point for discussion.

ROE are not an either/or proposition. There are as many variations of ROE as there are engagements. Whether or not a particular set of ROE are successful depends on a variety of factors, like local conditions, order of battle, staying power and strategic objectives.

If you read my post honestly and carefully, I am not saying that the Obama/McChrystal ROE could not work in the long run, only that they are reminiscent (not identical) to weak ROE associated with losing efforts in other wars. I am not arguing for adoption of the Russian ROE, only suggesting that the Obama/McChrystal approach may not be effective, especially considering Obama's time and resource constraints, and are probably regarded by the troops themselves as weak and unreasonable restrictions.

[SuperHornet]

That's a despicible way to put it, klean. There's gotta be a better way to put it, dude.

[mrklean]

That's a despicible way to put it, klean. There's gotta be a better way to put it, dude.

No its not. Call a Spade a Spade. Its just Blind Hatred for him and we all know Why. How the hall can you condone Insulting the Commander and Chief??? Any good Warrior knows about Honor and respect. Was I a fan of Bush, Hell NO, but I would never ever Disrespect the Office of President. Some people talk about Honor others live it.

[kalm]

Apparently the troops blame Obama for the weak ROE, which are reminiscent of shamefully weak ROE in previous lost wars. I look forward to what is really in the Rolling Stone article.

Actually, McChrystal has imposed very restrictive ROEs, which has had a negative impact on troops morale...but is in the end helping with the "win the minds and hearts" campaign...

95% of the people in this part of the world don't want a fight. Continuing this campaign if stupid. McChrystal should not be allowed to resign he should be fired. As I've said before, read "Three Cups of Tea" if you want to see how we could win a war against the crazies.

[native]

...Its just Blind Hatred for him and we all know Why. ....

Your imagination and demons are the ones who seem to know "why."

... How the hall can you condone Insulting the Commander and Chief??? ....

Why not ask DEMOCRAT Stanley McChrystal?

... Some people talk about Honor others live it.

Yes. Some small number of Democrats and a slightly larger number of Republicans.

[mrklean]

...Its just Blind Hatred for him and we all know Why. ....

Your imagination and demons are the ones who seem to know "why."

... How the hall can you condone Insulting the Commander and Chief??? ....

Why not ask DEMOCRAT Stanley McChrystal?

... Some people talk about Honor others live it.

Yes. Some small number of Democrats and a slightly larger number of Republicans.

Yeah in Fantasy Land................lol

[native]

...Actually, McChrystal has imposed very restrictive ROEs, which has had a negative impact on troops morale...but is in the end helping with the "win the minds and hearts" campaign...

Understood, Colonel. However, whether or not his strategy as implemented IS working is debatable.

Whether or not the Obama/McChrystal strategy would eventually work depends on a number of factors beyond General McChrystal's control, such as our political and financial staying power, our ability to maintain a coalition of the willing among other nations, our ability to establish and maintain a coaliiton of the willing among Afghans, our success in assisting Karzai build a reliable, disciplined and stable government, our ability to even envision what a stable and reliable Afghanistan might look like, whether or not we are willing to cut the Taliban off from Iranian assistance, etc...

[mrklean]

...Actually, McChrystal has imposed very restrictive ROEs, which has had a negative impact on troops morale...but is in the end helping with the "win the minds and hearts" campaign...

Understood, Colonel. However, whether or not his strategy as implemented IS working is debatable.

Whether or not the Obama/McChrystal strategy would eventually work depends on a number of factors beyond General McChrystal's control, such as our political and financial staying power, our ability to maintain a coalition of the willing among other nations, our ability to establish and maintain a coaliiton of the willing among Afghans, our success in assisting Karzai build a reliable, disciplined and stable government, our ability to even envision what a stable and reliable Afghanistan might look like, whether or not we are willing to cut the Taliban off from Iranian assistance, etc...

Score Card for Afghanistan:
Greeks-Loss
Mongols- Loss
Muslims- Loss
British- Loss
Russians-Loss
NATO- ???

Is it me, or is there a pattern here? Just asking!!!

[native]

Understood, Colonel. However, whether or not his strategy as implemented IS working is debatable.

Whether or not the Obama/McChrystal strategy would eventually work depends on a number of factors beyond General McChrystal's control, such as our political and financial staying power, our ability to maintain a coalition of the willing among other nations, our ability to establish and maintain a coaliiton of the willing among Afghans, our success in assisting Karzai build a reliable, disciplined and stable government, our ability to even envision what a stable and reliable Afghanistan might look like, whether or not we are willing to cut the Taliban off from Iranian assistance, etc...

Score Card for Afghanistan:
Greeks-Loss
Mongols- Loss
Muslims- Loss
British- Loss
Russians-Loss
NATO- ???

Is it me, or is there a pattern here? Just asking!!!

Finally, a substantial point is made by kleanie!

[mrklean]

Score Card for Afghanistan:
Greeks-Loss
Mongols- Loss
Muslims- Loss
British- Loss
Russians-Loss
NATO- ???

Is it me, or is there a pattern here? Just asking!!!

Finally, a substantial point is made by kleanie!

Why are we there??? Either Kill the enemy or go home.

[native]

Finally, a substantial point is made by kleanie!

Why are we there??? Either Kill the enemy or go home.

Kill the enemy, yes! but...er, kleanie, your "point" on another thread, that with all our boots on the ground, it is easy to distinguish friend from foe, is irresponsibly absurd. You'll have to think of something else.

[SuperHornet]

That's a despicible way to put it, klean. There's gotta be a better way to put it, dude.

No its not. Call a Spade a Spade. Its just Blind Hatred for him and we all know Why. How the hall can you condone Insulting the Commander and Chief??? Any good Warrior knows about Honor and respect. Was I a fan of Bush, Hell NO, but I would never ever Disrespect the Office of President. Some people talk about Honor others live it.

I wasn't disputing your sentiments, klean. Call him a GOP hack. Fine. But you stepped WAY over the line with the language with which you chose to frame it.

[native]

...Call him a GOP hack. Fine. ...

He may be a self-interested low-life hack, too clever by half, but McChrystal is not a GOP hack.

By his own admission, McChrystal voted for Obama.

[Wedgebuster]

Didn't we kill the guilty and wicked in Iraq, and do we need to invade Mexico??

Just askin'

[Baldy]

Didn't we kill the guilty and wicked in Iraq, and do we need to invade Mexico??

Just askin'

Why? Before long, they'll all be here.

[AZGrizFan]

A general who doesn't know his place is a general not worth having. You can have all the private disagreements in the world, but the minute you air these grievances for all to see publically is the minute you should hand in your resignation. Obama shouldn't have to fire him, he should've offerred his resignation himself. Correct or not, a general shouldn't be talking like that.

I couldn't agree more.

[AZGrizFan]

Understood, Colonel. However, whether or not his strategy as implemented IS working is debatable.

Whether or not the Obama/McChrystal strategy would eventually work depends on a number of factors beyond General McChrystal's control, such as our political and financial staying power, our ability to maintain a coalition of the willing among other nations, our ability to establish and maintain a coaliiton of the willing among Afghans, our success in assisting Karzai build a reliable, disciplined and stable government, our ability to even envision what a stable and reliable Afghanistan might look like, whether or not we are willing to cut the Taliban off from Iranian assistance, etc...

Score Card for Afghanistan:
Greeks-Loss
Mongols- Loss
Muslims- Loss
British- Loss
Russians-Loss
NATO- ???

Is it me, or is there a pattern here? Just asking!!!

[ERK-MOBILE]

95% of the people in this part of the world don't want a fight. Continuing this campaign if stupid. McChrystal should not be allowed to resign he should be fired. As I've said before, read "Three Cups of Tea" if you want to see how we could win a war against the crazies.

Great book. Also, A Thousand Splendid Suns by Hosseini is a great book that unveils the harsh realities women face in Afghanistan. It also helps one understand how no change will ever come to Afghanistan until investments are made in the education system--especially for women. How can we expect a country to advance when ~75% of women can't read.

The ongoing operation of crony politics in Afghanistan is also touched on heavily. I wonder how that could be changed?

[kalm]

95% of the people in this part of the world don't want a fight. Continuing this campaign if stupid. McChrystal should not be allowed to resign he should be fired. As I've said before, read "Three Cups of Tea" if you want to see how we could win a war against the crazies.

Great book. Also, A Thousand Splendid Suns by Hosseini is a great book that unveils the harsh realities women face in Afghanistan. It also helps one understand how no change will ever come to Afghanistan until investments are made in the education system--especially for women. How can we expect a country to advance when ~75% of women can't read.

The ongoing operation of crony politics in Afghanistan is also touched on heavily. I wonder how that could be changed?

Cronyism is part of the human condition and needs to be addressed. The answer is empowering the people and protecting the commons - democracy. If we're going to continue pumping 100's of millions into the country, Karzai should be out.

Thanks for the tip on the book.

[ERK-MOBILE]

Great book. Also, A Thousand Splendid Suns by Hosseini is a great book that unveils the harsh realities women face in Afghanistan. It also helps one understand how no change will ever come to Afghanistan until investments are made in the education system--especially for women. How can we expect a country to advance when ~75% of women can't read.

The ongoing operation of crony politics in Afghanistan is also touched on heavily. I wonder how that could be changed?

Cronyism is part of the human condition and needs to be addressed. The answer is empowering the people and protecting the commons - democracy. If we're going to continue pumping 100's of millions into the country, Karzai should be out.

Thanks for the tip on the book.

I agree.

Btw, crony politics is not touched on "heavily." I'm not sure why I wrote that, but the book is a fictional story about a young girl in Afghanistan. It's not a non-fiction political manifesto of any type, but the book is written in order to help an outsider understand life in Afghanistan. Very informative, and it's not a snoozer.

Some of the points I wrote above can be picked noticed in Hosseini's work.

[kalm]

Cronyism is part of the human condition and needs to be addressed. The answer is empowering the people and protecting the commons - democracy. If we're going to continue pumping 100's of millions into the country, Karzai should be out.

Thanks for the tip on the book.

I agree.

Btw, crony politics is not touched on "heavily." I'm not sure why I wrote that, but the book is a fictional story about a young girl in Afghanistan. It's not a non-fiction political manifesto of any type, but the book is written in order to help an outsider understand life in Afghanistan. Very informative, and it's not a snoozer.

Some of the points I wrote above can be picked noticed in Hosseini's work.

Not that I'm an avid reader (I'll have to wait till winter to read the book you recommended), but have you read Rory Stewart's "The Places in Between"? It's another really good book about what life is like in Afghanistan. The dude literally walked through the country 2 months after our invasion in 2002, relying upon the muslim tradition of hospitality to travelers to get him by.

These type of books should be required reading for anyone who has an opinion on our efforts there.

[SuperHornet]

It just hit me. I'm of two minds on this. While an officer ON ACTIVE DUTY has no business smacking those above him in the chain of command (hence the old practice of officers "falling on their swords"), the chain works both ways. Or, it's supposed to. Obama has no business jumping the chain. Sure, McChrystal is the theatre commander in Afghanistan. But the chain doesn't go straight from McChrystal to Obama. The combatant commander is PETRAEUS. The war in Afghanistan falls within the purview of CENTCOM.

What ought to be happening is Petraeus ordering a court-martial (or at least an NJP). Sure, Obama could order Petraeus to do that. But that's the way it should be happening. If Obama doesn't understand that, perhaps he should resign.