Illegals' Exodus from AZ has begun!!!

[dbackjon]

Great graph, jelly

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

Do you even know the numbers?

From 1925-1965, 178,000 legal immigrants came here per year. Today it's over 1,000,000 per year.

LOL.

I wonder why you chose to look at 1925-1965 as your years.


That's from the CBO. I'm sure they just made them up like y'all think they tend to do.

And, yeah, the numbers are similar to the peak in 1900.... but, our population in 1900 was ~75 million.

Are you seriously arguing against my statement that it used to be easier to immigrate to the US?

What difference does it make that there were 75 million here instead of the current #? Do you think that each groups immigration should go up exponentially base on the #'s that are already here?

What do the graphs look like for Irish, Brits, hell everyone else for that matter?

[dbackjon]

9 million immigrants in a population of 75 million is 12 percent of the population

9 million immigrants in a population of 300 million is 3%

To have the same percentage of population, you would need 36 million immigrants

[GannonFan]

Do you even know the numbers?

From 1925-1965, 178,000 legal immigrants came here per year. Today it's over 1,000,000 per year.

LOL.

I wonder why you chose to look at 1925-1965 as your years.


That's from the CBO. I'm sure they just made them up like y'all think they tend to do.

And, yeah, the numbers are similar to the peak in 1900.... but, our population in 1900 was ~75 million.

Are you seriously arguing against my statement that it used to be easier to immigrate to the US?

But are you seriously arguing that because it was easy to immigrate to the US prior to the 1920's that we should just go back to that same kind of immigration policy? Of course it was easy to immigrate here - we had the better part of a continent to populate and we were barely using most of it. People could and did come here in droves and they quickly found acres and acres of land. And since we were still a fairly agrarian culture, there was work for everyone as most people knew farming. But it's no coincidence that as the open spaces in America grew fewer and fewer that we also then at the same time began to really restrict immigration. It's fine to have an open door policy when that open door leads to so many wide open spaces. When it gets crowded here, why would we want to significantly increase our immigration rates (and 1M legal immigrants per year is a pretty large number).

The other point you brought up, saying that education shouldn't have a role in determining who gets to immigrate here - why? Why wouldn't we want the most talented and the most educated people to come here? What's to gain from bringing in undereducated people or people without special skills? We're never going to be a place like China again, where labor rates are miniscule and standards of living are low in many areas, and why would we want to be that? We're a mature economy where there are plenty of jobs that require substantial education. I'd much rather bring in people that already have some or most of that education rather than hoping we are able to provide all that education here for them to be successful. Your idea of letting anyone in is akin to a sports draft where you just pick anyone and hope you have a diamond in the rough or two who can carry the team. I'd rather draft a sports team where I brought in the best players already in whatever sport I'm playing.

[89Hen]

I wonder why you chose to look at 1925-1965 as your years.

Are you seriously arguing against my statement that it used to be easier to immigrate to the US?

1965 was the change in immigration policies that made it easier. So we're now at a time matching (actually surpassing today) the largest immigration in the history of the US and your arguement is it's too tough? Our population has nothing to do with the ease or number of immigrants.

When a business is first opening, they tend to give stuff away and take on all customers. Once it becomes successful and has a client base that keeps it near 100% capacity, they stop giving it away. If that analogy sounds callous, so be it.

[89Hen]

Great graph, jelly

Agreed. It shows we are at an all-time record pace for legal immigration, but it's still not enough for some people.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

9 million immigrants in a population of 75 million is 12 percent of the population

9 million immigrants in a population of 300 million is 3%

To have the same percentage of population, you would need 36 million immigrants

I understand that but I don't see why that matters. I mean what's the point on basing it on who's already here?

If you have a gallon bucket under a leaky faucet and it's catching the water then at some point the resources of that bucket are gonna get used up so I don't understand the thinking of increasing the drip to do it quicker so that what is coming out of the faucet is more proportional to what is in the bucket.

[Skjellyfetti]

What do the graphs look like for Irish, Brits, hell everyone else for that matter?

"
Well, it doesn't get more specific than Europe... but, you can compare European, Asian, Latin American, and such with this one:

[Skjellyfetti]

But are you seriously arguing that because it was easy to immigrate to the US prior to the 1920's that we should just go back to that same kind of immigration policy? Of course it was easy to immigrate here - we had the better part of a continent to populate and we were barely using most of it. People could and did come here in droves and they quickly found acres and acres of land. And since we were still a fairly agrarian culture, there was work for everyone as most people knew farming. But it's no coincidence that as the open spaces in America grew fewer and fewer that we also then at the same time began to really restrict immigration. It's fine to have an open door policy when that open door leads to so many wide open spaces. When it gets crowded here, why would we want to significantly increase our immigration rates (and 1M legal immigrants per year is a pretty large number).

We're less of an agrarian society... but, only because there are fewer small farms. We're still an agrarian society in the sense that our agricultural industry is huge and one of the largest in the world.

Grain Production by country:
1. United States: 277,796 thousand metric tons
2. China: 121,300 thousand metric tons
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/agr_g ... production" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And it ain't even close!
USA! USA! USA! USA!

Arable and permanent cropland
1. United States: 179,000 thousand hectares
2. India: 169,700 thousand hectares
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/agr_a ... t-cropland" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
USA! USA! USA! USA!

Opening up more immigrants means more people working shitty agricultural jobs that too many in the US are too lazy or proud to perform.

Of course we can't promise them a tract of land to farm for themselves. But, they don't expect that. They just want a chance to work and provide for their family. And they work their asses off, are frugal, are family oriented, are industrious,... they're what we (used) to hold dear in America. BRING 'EM ON!

The other point you brought up, saying that education shouldn't have a role in determining who gets to immigrate here - why? Why wouldn't we want the most talented and the most educated people to come here? What's to gain from bringing in undereducated people or people without special skills? We're never going to be a place like China again, where labor rates are miniscule and standards of living are low in many areas, and why would we want to be that? We're a mature economy where there are plenty of jobs that require substantial education. I'd much rather bring in people that already have some or most of that education rather than hoping we are able to provide all that education here for them to be successful. Your idea of letting anyone in is akin to a sports draft where you just pick anyone and hope you have a diamond in the rough or two who can carry the team. I'd rather draft a sports team where I brought in the best players already in whatever sport I'm playing.

Those with college degrees and advanced degrees should be able to come as well. Of course we want the most talented and educated to come here. I never said we didn't.

And, you're right that our economy is different from China and that jobs in the US require substantial education. That's exactly why we need a different immigration target than other countries. Other countries need college educated people... we'll take them... but, we're not hurting for college graduates. We're hurting for people that will perform low paying, shitty jobs. We have too many highly educated people that believe they are "above" manual labor. Why not bring in hard working immigrants for poor countries that will JUMP at the chance to shovel shit for 12 hours a day.

And, your sports draft analogy doesn't work quite right. The draft picks are going to those with college educations and looking for high paying jobs. I'm talking about people that will clean up the stadium after the game and bring me some beer... those would be more analogous to the immigration I'm talking about.

[Chizzang]

I'm still trying to figure out why all this matters...
If there was no jobs here and no opportunity they'd stop coming right..?

1) Why are there jobs for them..?
2) What are these jobs..?
3) can't most Americans make themselves more valuable than an immigrant if they need to.?

Seriously.. this whole thing is beyond me

I agree with Arizona's right to do whatever they want - I just don't really see the advantage I guess

[AZGrizFan]

I'm still trying to figure out why all this matters...
If there was no jobs here and no opportunity they'd stop coming right..?

1) Why are there jobs for them..?
2) What are these jobs..?
3) can't most Americans make themselves more valuable than an immigrant if they need to.?

Seriously.. this whole thing is beyond me

I agree with Arizona's right to do whatever they want - I just don't really see the advantage I guess

Ah, what the fuck do you know, Denunzio?

[Chizzang]

I'm still trying to figure out why all this matters...
If there was no jobs here and no opportunity they'd stop coming right..?

1) Why are there jobs for them..?
2) What are these jobs..?
3) can't most Americans make themselves more valuable than an immigrant if they need to.?

Seriously.. this whole thing is beyond me

I agree with Arizona's right to do whatever they want - I just don't really see the advantage I guess

Ah, what the fuck do you know, Denunzio?

Clearly I don;t know sh!t... and freely admit that
but nobody seems to be able to explain why we have so many jobs for immigrants and what these jobs are and if that's a good thing or a bad thing and what happens if we have nobody to do these jobs...

I do not know the answer... but the problem seems more a kind of mental crisis than anything
France has a HUGE immigration issue and they can't seem to explain why it matters either




interesting...

[AZGrizFan]

Ah, what the fuck do you know, Denunzio?

Clearly I don;t know sh!t... and freely admit that
but nobody seems to be able to explain why we have so many jobs for immigrants and what these jobs are and if that's a good thing or a bad thing and what happens if we have nobody to do these jobs...

I do not know the answer... but the problem seems more a kind of mental crisis than anything
France has a HUGE immigration issue and they can't seem to explain why it matters either




interesting...

I can explain it in 5 words:

The grass is always greener.

[blueballs]

I'm still trying to figure out why all this matters...
If there was no jobs here and no opportunity they'd stop coming right..?

1) Why are there jobs for them..?
2) What are these jobs..?
3) can't most Americans make themselves more valuable than an immigrant if they want to.?

Seriously.. this whole thing is beyond me

I agree with Arizona's right to do whatever they want - I just don't really see the advantage I guess

FIFY... like most things in life it is all about how bad somebody wants it.

[Skjellyfetti]

FIFY... like most things in life it is all about how bad somebody wants it.

These folks want it pretty bad.

[Col Hogan]

FIFY... like most things in life it is all about how bad somebody wants it.

These folks want it pretty bad.

Then why risk being sent back because they didn't follow the law???

[D1B]

These folks want it pretty bad.

Then why risk being sent back because they didn't follow the law???

Cuz most of em don't get caught. Dumbass.

[Col Hogan]

Then why risk being sent back because they didn't follow the law???

Cuz most of em don't get caught. Dumbass.

We're working on that...

[D1B]

Cuz most of em don't get caught. Dumbass.

We're working on that...

Aint you a catholic? Pretty sure the church would advocate for the freedom of the mexican people to come here for a better life, without undue hurdles or harrassment by the voter base of your republican party (nazi brownshirts). If not, it's what jesus would want.

Shame on you greedy and racist fucks. Read the bible someday.

[Col Hogan]

We're working on that...

Aint you a catholic? Pretty sure the church would advocate for the freedom of the mexican people to come here for a better life, without undue hurdles or harrassment by the voter base of your republican party (nazi brownshirts). If not, it's what jesus would want.

Shame on you greedy and racist ****. Read the bible someday.

A few Catholic bishops, most notably LA Cardinal Mahony, would throw open the borders to everyone...but that is not Catholic teaching...

And where did Jesus advocate disobeying civil law???

Now, Jesus would most likely agree that everyone should be welcomed by first following the civil laws...

And while you're on this "What would the church advocate" kick...are you willing to take up the Church position on abortion....or do you simply pick the topics you like and ignore the rest???

[Skjellyfetti]

Then why risk being sent back because they didn't follow the law???

Because it's the only way they can come.

[BDKJMU]

What would you like it to be? Are you for anyone and everyone to have a quick, easy path to citizenship?

Do other countries have a quick and easy path for anyone and everyone for citizenship?

BTW, I'm sure you know that "legal" and "citizen" are two entirely different things.

I know that Canada, for one, has a MUCH simpler process than ours.

And on the other hand Canada (or any other major industrialized power for that matter) doesn't grant birthright citizenship (anchor babies).

[D1B]

Aint you a catholic? Pretty sure the church would advocate for the freedom of the mexican people to come here for a better life, without undue hurdles or harrassment by the voter base of your republican party (nazi brownshirts). If not, it's what jesus would want.

Shame on you greedy and racist ****. Read the bible someday.

A few Catholic bishops, most notably LA Cardinal Mahony, would throw open the borders to everyone...but that is not Catholic teaching...

And where did Jesus advocate disobeying civil law???

Now, Jesus would most likely agree that everyone should be welcomed by first following the civil laws...

And while you're on this "What would the church advocate" kick...are you willing to take up the Church position on abortion....or do you simply pick the topics you like and ignore the rest???

Hogan, nice Joltinian deflection. This aint about me. I aint catholic. I have options.

The question was put to you. I'm surprised at your stance on certain issues - especially those surrounding the poor (immigration, welfare, etc.) According to your Jesus myth, he got his "rebel" ass in a sling for defying the authorities. MOF, your entire religion is based on his crucifixian and bullshit resurrection. Here we go again, the atheist teaching the christians about their religion.

Jesus would not approve of many civil laws Hogan. He was guided by pure principles of compassion for others, period. He would welcome the mexican horde with open arms, so don't give me your bullshit.

[BDKJMU]

Ah, now I get it. You're not OK with illegal immigration, you just want to make all immigration legal.

Well, not ALL. But, you're close.

Why are you against it? Because it would take jobs away from lazy Americans that don't want to do them in the first place?

Well hell then, there's a couple of billion people who would like to come to the US. So according to Jelly here, we should just let most of them in.

Our current levels of roughly a million a year legally I'm ok with if it wasn't also accompanied by a net of about a million a year illegally.

Now when again is the U.S. projected to hit 400 million. 2040?

[BDKJMU]

The other point you brought up, saying that education shouldn't have a role in determining who gets to immigrate here - why? Why wouldn't we want the most talented and the most educated people to come here? What's to gain from bringing in undereducated people or people without special skills? We're never going to be a place like China again, where labor rates are miniscule and standards of living are low in many areas, and why would we want to be that? We're a mature economy where there are plenty of jobs that require substantial education. I'd much rather bring in people that already have some or most of that education rather than hoping we are able to provide all that education here for them to be successful. Your idea of letting anyone in is akin to a sports draft where you just pick anyone and hope you have a diamond in the rough or two who can carry the team. I'd rather draft a sports team where I brought in the best players already in whatever sport I'm playing.

Those with college degrees and advanced degrees should be able to come as well. Of course we want the most talented and educated to come here. I never said we didn't.

And, you're right that our economy is different from China and that jobs in the US require substantial education. That's exactly why we need a different immigration target than other countries. Other countries need college educated people... we'll take them... but, we're not hurting for college graduates. We're hurting for people that will perform low paying, shitty jobs. We have too many highly educated people that believe they are "above" manual labor. Why not bring in hard working immigrants for poor countries that will JUMP at the chance to shovel **** for 12 hours a day.

And, your sports draft analogy doesn't work quite right. The draft picks are going to those with college educations and looking for high paying jobs. I'm talking about people that will clean up the stadium after the game and bring me some beer... those would be more analogous to the immigration I'm talking about.

No we're not. We just need to kick all the lazy f*cks off welfare and stop extending unempoyment bennies for 2+ years to people who aren't even bothering to look for work.
If the choice is:
-Work low paying, shitty job or stay on welfare as long as possible, its usually going to be stay on welfare as long as possible.
-Work low paying, shitty job or stay on unempoyment bennies as long as possible, its usually going to be stay on unemployment bennies as long as possible.
-Work low paying, shitty job or go homeless & starve, its usually going to be work low paying, shitty job.

We have PLENTY of people to work those low paying, shitty jobs.