Scholarship question

[CAA Flagship]

As you know, this football thing is new to us at Old Dominion. Most of us have followed FCS football over the years but never dug deep enough to understand the inequity of scholarships. We will become a 63 scholarship program within two years (we can only give out so many each year so it takes a little time). But I find it interesting that many of the 125 FCS programs do not give out the full 63 scholarships.

So my questions are:
1. How many programs are at least set up to give 63 scholarships?
2. How many teams in the last decade or so have made it to the playoffs with fewer than 63 scholarships?
I'm thinking that without giving 63 scholarships, it is essentially a death nail for a national championship. But how many made it to the playoffs?

[bobbythekidd]

As you know, this football thing is new to us at Old Dominion. Most of us have followed FCS football over the years but never dug deep enough to understand the inequity of scholarships. We will become a 63 scholarship program within two years (we can only give out so many each year so it takes a little time). But I find it interesting that many of the 125 FCS programs do not give out the full 63 scholarships.

So my questions are:
1. How many programs are at least set up to give 63 scholarships?
2. How many teams in the last decade or so have made it to the playoffs with fewer than 63 scholarships?
I'm thinking that without giving 63 scholarships, it is essentially a death nail for a national championship. But how many made it to the playoffs?

Those are good questions and I don't even know how to find an answer to them. One thing to remember is that even if a program CAN give 63 scollys, does not mean they do. FCS can split scollys and some teams lose scollys as an NCAA punishment.

[andy7171]

The Patriot League doesn't give scholarships. So at least one goes to the playoffs every year with an AQ bid. That has changed with Fordham going to scholarship, they can't receive the PL AQ, but I have to think a 9-2 or 8-3 Fordham gets an at large anyway or is at least in the conversation.
The NEC offers a certain number, I'm wanting to say 30-35 and that number is moving up. If CCSU wins out and goes 10-1, I would have to think they would have a fair shot at getting in also, to Albany's chagrin.

[UAalum72]

Yes, the Northeast Conference max for this year is 34, increasing by two per year until topping at 40 for 2012 (under the current plan). Duquesne, coming from the non-scholly MAAC, is only at 20 for this year and only plans to top at 26 according to their game notes.

I wouldn't be surprised of most FCS teams were a couple short of 63 every year due to transfers, dropouts or early graduations; the 63 may be divided among up to 85 players (FBS cannot give partials at all, all 85 must be full rides).

[danefan]

1. How many programs are at least set up to give 63 scholarships?

An almost impossible question to answer with certainty, however its fair to say that there are a decent amount of teams that have restrictions on offering scholarships that are not offering the full 63. Case-in-point is Georgia Southern. Coach Hatcher has gone on record in an interview stating that GSU has been between 52-56 for the last 3 or 4 years.

Other than underfunded programs scattered throughout FCS, there are certain conferences which limit or forbid scholarships.

Patriot League - PL offers no athletic scholarships. They offer need-based equivalencies which are only available to football players. These differ from scholarships because they are only available to players that meet certain financial prerequisites. Most Patriot League schools do not count these equivlancies for purposes of Title IX, which IMO is a crock of you know what. The PL offers scholarships in all other sports.

Pioneer and Ivy Leage - the PFL and Ivy League do not offer athletic-based aid for football players. The aid available to these schools is the same aid available to all students. These packages are quite generous though, and in some cases becomes the equivalent to a full scholarship (e.g. anyone whose parents make under ~$150,000 goes to Harvard for free anyway, etc...). The Ivy league has a ton more money than anyone on Earth and as such they tend to give more aid money to athletes than the PFL does. The PFL offers the same type of aid, but is generally more restrictive in its application.

NEC - The NEC used to be a need-based equivalency league like the Patriot but in the past had funded its programs at a much lower level. Starting in 2007, the NEC began allowing its teams to offer 30 scholarships and increasing 2 scholarships per year until they maxed out at 40. The top of the league (Albany, CCSU and Monmouth) funds their programs to the max (34 this year) The bottom of the leauge doesn't.

2. How many teams in the last decade or so have made it to the playoffs with fewer than 63 scholarships?
I'm thinking that without giving 63 scholarships, it is essentially a death nail for a national championship. But how many made it to the playoffs?

As Andy said, the PL is the only non-scholarship/limited scholarship league that gets an AQ. They "compete" in the playoffs every year. Colgate is the only Patriot team to have any success in the playoffs, making the National Championship game in 2003. The Patriot is generally paired with a CAA team in the first round and more often than not, gets destroyed.

So, theoretically its possible to win the NC without offering 63 scholarships. However, its very unlikely and in recent history only Colgate has even gotten close in one year.

EDIT: sorry for repeating with UAalumn said above. I was typing when he posted.

[CAA Flagship]

Thanks for the answers.
So there are 34 teams that make up the 4 conferences that have scholarship limitations. Leaving 91 schools that are essentially playing on a level field (not counting those that are a few short due to strange circumstances).
I understand that full scholarship conferences are not happy with the idea of partial or non scholarship conferences getting an auto-bid for the playoffs. It's an interesting argument that I guess played itself out on these boards in the past. If it has, I don't want to put anyone through that pain again, unless anyone has any breaking news on the subject.

[Franks Tanks]

1. How many programs are at least set up to give 63 scholarships?

An almost impossible question to answer with certainty, however its fair to say that there are a decent amount of teams that have restrictions on offering scholarships that are not offering the full 63. Case-in-point is Georgia Southern. Coach Hatcher has gone on record in an interview stating that GSU has been between 52-56 for the last 3 or 4 years.

Other than underfunded programs scattered throughout FCS, there are certain conferences which limit or forbid scholarships.

Patriot League - PL offers no athletic scholarships. They offer need-based equivalencies which are only available to football players. These differ from scholarships because they are only available to players that meet certain financial prerequisites. Most Patriot League schools do not count these equivlancies for purposes of Title IX, which IMO is a crock of you know what. The PL offers scholarships in all other sports.

Pioneer and Ivy Leage - the PFL and Ivy League do not offer athletic-based aid for football players. The aid available to these schools is the same aid available to all students. These packages are quite generous though, and in some cases becomes the equivalent to a full scholarship (e.g. anyone whose parents make under ~$150,000 goes to Harvard for free anyway, etc...). The Ivy league has a ton more money than anyone on Earth and as such they tend to give more aid money to athletes than the PFL does. The PFL offers the same type of aid, but is generally more restrictive in its application.

NEC - The NEC used to be a need-based equivalency league like the Patriot but in the past had funded its programs at a much lower level. Starting in 2007, the NEC began allowing its teams to offer 30 scholarships and increasing 2 scholarships per year until they maxed out at 40. The top of the league (Albany, CCSU and Monmouth) funds their programs to the max (34 this year) The bottom of the leauge doesn't.

2. How many teams in the last decade or so have made it to the playoffs with fewer than 63 scholarships?
I'm thinking that without giving 63 scholarships, it is essentially a death nail for a national championship. But how many made it to the playoffs?

As Andy said, the PL is the only non-scholarship/limited scholarship league that gets an AQ. They "compete" in the playoffs every year. Colgate is the only Patriot team to have any success in the playoffs, making the National Championship game in 2003. The Patriot is generally paired with a CAA team in the first round and more often than not, gets destroyed.

So, theoretically its possible to win the NC without offering 63 scholarships. However, its very unlikely and in recent history only Colgate has even gotten close in one year.

EDIT: sorry for repeating with UAalumn said above. I was typing when he posted.

Lehigh has made it to the second round of the playoffs on three ocassions and beat Richmond, Western Illinois, and Hofstra. As we all know Colgate beat UMASS, Western Illinois and FAU on their way to a national title game appareance. Fordham also has a win in the playoffs against Northeastern. Lafayette and Holy Cross have made the FCS playoffs but have no wins. Bucknell and Gerogetown have never been. Come talk to us when a NEC team wins a playoff game.

[Franks Tanks]

Thanks for the answers.
So there are 34 teams that make up the 4 conferences that have scholarship limitations. Leaving 91 schools that are essentially playing on a level field (not counting those that are a few short due to strange circumstances).
I understand that full scholarship conferences are not happy with the idea of partial or non scholarship conferences getting an auto-bid for the playoffs. It's an interesting argument that I guess played itself out on these boards in the past. If it has, I don't want to put anyone through that pain again, unless anyone has any breaking news on the subject.

The better teams in the Patriot League fund the equilivant of about 50 scholarships. (Lafayette, Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham, Holy Cross.) We are considered a scholarship league by the NCAA.

The difference is that the funds are distributed in a need based rather than need blind manner, but they are athletic assistance funds all the way.

[danefan]

1. How many programs are at least set up to give 63 scholarships?

An almost impossible question to answer with certainty, however its fair to say that there are a decent amount of teams that have restrictions on offering scholarships that are not offering the full 63. Case-in-point is Georgia Southern. Coach Hatcher has gone on record in an interview stating that GSU has been between 52-56 for the last 3 or 4 years.

Other than underfunded programs scattered throughout FCS, there are certain conferences which limit or forbid scholarships.

Patriot League - PL offers no athletic scholarships. They offer need-based equivalencies which are only available to football players. These differ from scholarships because they are only available to players that meet certain financial prerequisites. Most Patriot League schools do not count these equivlancies for purposes of Title IX, which IMO is a crock of you know what. The PL offers scholarships in all other sports.

Pioneer and Ivy Leage - the PFL and Ivy League do not offer athletic-based aid for football players. The aid available to these schools is the same aid available to all students. These packages are quite generous though, and in some cases becomes the equivalent to a full scholarship (e.g. anyone whose parents make under ~$150,000 goes to Harvard for free anyway, etc...). The Ivy league has a ton more money than anyone on Earth and as such they tend to give more aid money to athletes than the PFL does. The PFL offers the same type of aid, but is generally more restrictive in its application.

NEC - The NEC used to be a need-based equivalency league like the Patriot but in the past had funded its programs at a much lower level. Starting in 2007, the NEC began allowing its teams to offer 30 scholarships and increasing 2 scholarships per year until they maxed out at 40. The top of the league (Albany, CCSU and Monmouth) funds their programs to the max (34 this year) The bottom of the leauge doesn't.

2. How many teams in the last decade or so have made it to the playoffs with fewer than 63 scholarships?
I'm thinking that without giving 63 scholarships, it is essentially a death nail for a national championship. But how many made it to the playoffs?

As Andy said, the PL is the only non-scholarship/limited scholarship league that gets an AQ. They "compete" in the playoffs every year. Colgate is the only Patriot team to have any success in the playoffs, making the National Championship game in 2003. The Patriot is generally paired with a CAA team in the first round and more often than not, gets destroyed.

So, theoretically its possible to win the NC without offering 63 scholarships. However, its very unlikely and in recent history only Colgate has even gotten close in one year.

EDIT: sorry for repeating with UAalumn said above. I was typing when he posted.

Lehigh has made it to the second round of the playoffs on three ocassions and beat Richmond, Western Illinois, and Hofstra. As we all know Colgate beat UMASS, Western Illinois and FAU on their way to a national title game appareance. Fordham also has a win in the playoffs against Northeastern. Lafayette and Holy Cross have made the FCS playoffs but have no wins. Bucknell and Gerogetown have never been. Come talk to us when a NEC team wins a playoff game.

Yeah, I always put the good lehigh teams in the late 90's but they were in fact 2000 and 2001.

I forgot about the Fordham win. My bad.

And if you don't think the PL is a long way from its success in 2000-2003 then you're off your rocker.

I'll gladly correct my error - the PL had some success in the beginning of the decade culminating with Colgate's 2003 run to to the National Championship game. Since then, the PL is 0-5.

And I won't have to wait very long to "come talk to you" seeing as how the NEC winner will probably be playing the Patriot winner next year.

[Franks Tanks]

Lehigh has made it to the second round of the playoffs on three ocassions and beat Richmond, Western Illinois, and Hofstra. As we all know Colgate beat UMASS, Western Illinois and FAU on their way to a national title game appareance. Fordham also has a win in the playoffs against Northeastern. Lafayette and Holy Cross have made the FCS playoffs but have no wins. Bucknell and Gerogetown have never been. Come talk to us when a NEC team wins a playoff game.

Yeah, I always put the good lehigh teams in the late 90's but they were in fact 2000 and 2001.

I forgot about the Fordham win. My bad.

And if you don't think the PL is a long way from its success in 2000-2003 then you're off your rocker.

And I won't have to wait very long to "come talk to you" seeing as how the NEC winner will probably be playing the Patriot winner next year.

we just need to freakin play each other already.

I didnt say the PL is as good as then. I dont think our level of play is nearly as bad or off from those years as some may think.

In 04 Lehigh could have beat eventual national champs JMU is the 1st round of the playoffs(lost by 1). In 05 Lafayette played eventual national champs App State as good as anyone.

Is started goig downhill in 06. That year a not so great Lafayette team managed to sneak into the playoffs and we were outlcassed by a much better UMASS team. In 07 Fordham played UMASS better than we did the year before but UMASS stil came away with a clear cut victory. The Gate/Nova game was terrible.

We have had a playof bid for over a decade and the last 3 year have been our worst in the playoffs. This year the PL winner will be a better team than the last 3 PL reps (I believe Lafayette and Holy Cross are both better teams than the last 3 PL winners, but could be proven wrong) and we will see what happens.

[danefan]

Yeah, I always put the good lehigh teams in the late 90's but they were in fact 2000 and 2001.

I forgot about the Fordham win. My bad.

And if you don't think the PL is a long way from its success in 2000-2003 then you're off your rocker.

And I won't have to wait very long to "come talk to you" seeing as how the NEC winner will probably be playing the Patriot winner next year.

we just need to freakin play each other already.

I didnt say the PL is as good as then. I dont think our level of play is nearly as bad or off from those years as some may think.

In 04 Lehigh could have beat eventual national champs JMU is the 1st round of the playoffs(lost by 1). In 05 Lafayette played eventual national champs App State as good as anyone.

Is started goig downhill in 06. That year a not so great Lafayette team managed to sneak into the playoffs and we were outlcassed by a much better UMASS team. In 07 Fordham played UMASS better than we did the year before but UMASS stil came away with a clear cut victory. The Gate/Nova game was terrible.

We have had a playof bid for over a decade and the last 3 year have been our worst in the playoffs. This year the PL winner will be a better team than the last 3 PL reps (I believe Lafayette and Holy Cross are both better teams than the last 3 PL winners, but could be proven wrong) and we will see what happens.

I know. I hope we get a PL team on Albany's schedule next year. Our 2011 game with Colgate was moved because we picked up Cincinatti instead (tough call there ).

And BTW, I added the following to my post when you were typing:

I'll gladly correct my error - the PL had some success in the beginning of the decade culminating with Colgate's 2003 run to to the National Championship game. Since then, the PL is 0-5.

Which I believe is accurate.

[Franks Tanks]

we just need to freakin play each other already.

I didnt say the PL is as good as then. I dont think our level of play is nearly as bad or off from those years as some may think.

In 04 Lehigh could have beat eventual national champs JMU is the 1st round of the playoffs(lost by 1). In 05 Lafayette played eventual national champs App State as good as anyone.

Is started goig downhill in 06. That year a not so great Lafayette team managed to sneak into the playoffs and we were outlcassed by a much better UMASS team. In 07 Fordham played UMASS better than we did the year before but UMASS stil came away with a clear cut victory. The Gate/Nova game was terrible.

We have had a playof bid for over a decade and the last 3 year have been our worst in the playoffs. This year the PL winner will be a better team than the last 3 PL reps (I believe Lafayette and Holy Cross are both better teams than the last 3 PL winners, but could be proven wrong) and we will see what happens.

I know. I hope we get a PL team on Albany's schedule next year. Our 2011 game with Colgate was moved because we picked up Cincinatti instead (tough call there ).

And BTW, I added the following to my post when you were typing:

I'll gladly correct my error - the PL had some success in the beginning of the decade culminating with Colgate's 2003 run to to the National Championship game. Since then, the PL is 0-5.

Which I believe is accurate.

NO PL wins since 03. Some close but no cigars.

04-- Lafayette lost to Delaware, and Lehigh lost to JMU
05- Colgate lost to UNH, Lafayette lost to App State
06- Lafayette Lost to UMASS
07- Fordham lost to UMASS
08- Colgate got raped by NOVA

0-7 since 2003

04 and 05 had very competitive teams and games in the playoffs. I would agree that 06,07, and 08 performance has been poor, but I think that will change this year.

[CatMom]

I think we have 53? Not sure. Whatever the FBS is we have 22 less. So, if someone knows what the FBS gets I can do the math.