Ursus A. Horribilis wrote:
Taking some sort of a shot here Tanks? Got a problem with the poll?
Does anyone know how many people actually vote-- has that been divulged?
Such a small number of voters with inherient bias (fans of an individual team) personal bias has a greater chance to seep into the results.
Also who cares?? We have a playoff, for the most part every team with a shot at the championship is going to make the playoffs.
Tanks you don't know a god damn thing about the poll and the biases are mitigated in this poll more than any other poll out there I can assure you that without going into details.
Why do you need to know how many are voting? What the fuck does that matter if the poll is as good as any other poll out there. I can tell you that I don't know how many voted last week but I do know for a fact that there were soemthing like 46 voters a couple of weeks back.
As far as the "who cares" it sure looked to me like you were taking a shot for some reason that I can't figure out. You weren't asking you were leveling on that one. Since I didn't know that you had a bone with it, it just seemed a little odd to jump like that.
Franks Tanks wrote:Anyone want to note how many people voted in the cs.com poll this week?
Kepp asking the question all you want FT but the two fucking guys that know for sure ain't on the board so you may as well beat your head against a wall. Seriously though I don't understand why it is something you are stuck on. Are you trying to formulate an argument herre or what.
If it'll satisfy you I'll make up a number for you to move it along for ya. The amount of voters is....15. Good enough?
Top 16 + 9 ORVs sounds right to me.* You're not really looking for the 16 teams that are going to be in the playoffs, you're looking for the 8 that are going to get at large invites. 16 helps cover the AQs plus the playoff non-participants. To the extent you have some weeks where the top 16 is overloaded with AQs and ineligible teams and not enough at large candidates, that's where the ORVs come in.
(* The problem is, next year the playoffs expand to 20, and possibly to 22 after that if the PFL gets an AQ.)
Does anyone know how many people actually vote-- has that been divulged?
Such a small number of voters with inherient bias (fans of an individual team) personal bias has a greater chance to seep into the results.
Also who cares?? We have a playoff, for the most part every team with a shot at the championship is going to make the playoffs.
Tanks you don't know a god damn thing about the poll and the biases are mitigated in this poll more than any other poll out there I can assure you that without going into details.
Why do you need to know how many are voting? What the **** does that matter if the poll is as good as any other poll out there. I can tell you that I don't know how many voted last week but I do know for a fact that there were soemthing like 46 voters a couple of weeks back.
As far as the "who cares" it sure looked to me like you were taking a shot for some reason that I can't figure out. You weren't asking you were leveling on that one. Since I didn't know that you had a bone with it, it just seemed a little odd to jump like that.
Because anyone with an elementary understanding of stastics know that a larger sample size increases accuracy by reducing bias and anomolies in the data. How do you mitigate bias.. If I sign up and vote Holy Cross number one will you remove my vote because it is outside the normal standard deviation of where that team lies?
It is funny because the creators of the poll are trying to make it a legit poll in the FCS world, but you are providing zero transparancy or methodology. You get mad when I ask a simple question like how many people voted in the poll and how many votes did each team recieve. This is a simple question that all legitimate polls divulge as far as I know.
I dont care about the CS.com poll--thats why I didnt sign up to participate. However, if you aspire to make this poll relevant I suggest you go about creating the poll in a professional manner.
LastMinuteman wrote:Top 16 + 9 ORVs sounds right to me.* You're not really looking for the 16 teams that are going to be in the playoffs, you're looking for the 8 that are going to get at large invites. 16 helps cover the AQs plus the playoff non-participants. To the extent you have some weeks where the top 16 is overloaded with AQs and ineligible teams and not enough at large candidates, that's where the ORVs come in.
(* The problem is, next year the playoffs expand to 20, and possibly to 22 after that if the PFL gets an AQ.)
That was also covered. I wish some of you guys had been around when we were doing that cuz it's good discussion. The proposal for that case is that the poll expands as the playoff expands. In 2010 the poll would move to 20 and so on and so forth.
Ursus A. Horribilis wrote:
Tanks you don't know a god damn thing about the poll and the biases are mitigated in this poll more than any other poll out there I can assure you that without going into details.
Why do you need to know how many are voting? What the **** does that matter if the poll is as good as any other poll out there. I can tell you that I don't know how many voted last week but I do know for a fact that there were soemthing like 46 voters a couple of weeks back.
As far as the "who cares" it sure looked to me like you were taking a shot for some reason that I can't figure out. You weren't asking you were leveling on that one. Since I didn't know that you had a bone with it, it just seemed a little odd to jump like that.
Because anyone with an elementary understanding of stastics know that a larger sample size increases accuracy by reducing bias and anomolies in the data. How do you mitigate bias.. If I sign up and vote Holy Cross number one will you remove my vote because it is outside the normal standard deviation of where that team lies?
It is funny because the creators of the poll are trying to make it a legit poll in the FCS world, but you are providing zero transparancy or methodology. You get mad when I ask a simple question like how many people voted in the poll and how many votes did each team recieve. This is a simple question that all legitimate polls divulge as far as I know.
I dont care about the CS.com poll--thats why I didnt sign up to participate. However, if you aspire to make this poll relevant I suggest you go about creating the poll in a professional manner.
First off dipshit we created this poll for us. If it gets attention then so be it but that wasn't the driving part so you are really fucking mistaken on that one. We aren't marketing it to anyone or aspiring to send it out as the be all end all of polls in it's first few weeks.
You wouldn't understand the way the poll works so we decided to keep it from you and your elementary understanding of statistics. Sorry Tanks but it's for your own good.
Zero transparency, I ain't providing any transparency cuz it's brand fucking new and until the guy that built it decides he wants to let it be know then I sure as the hell ain't doing it. You're acting like a bitch because you can't get some questions answered that you want answered right now?
Franks Tanks wrote:
Because anyone with an elementary understanding of stastics know that a larger sample size increases accuracy by reducing bias and anomolies in the data. How do you mitigate bias.. If I sign up and vote Holy Cross number one will you remove my vote because it is outside the normal standard deviation of where that team lies?
It is funny because the creators of the poll are trying to make it a legit poll in the FCS world, but you are providing zero transparancy or methodology. You get mad when I ask a simple question like how many people voted in the poll and how many votes did each team recieve. This is a simple question that all legitimate polls divulge as far as I know.
I dont care about the CS.com poll--thats why I didnt sign up to participate. However, if you aspire to make this poll relevant I suggest you go about creating the poll in a professional manner.
First off dipshit we created this poll for us. If it gets attention then so be it but that wasn't the driving part so you are really **** mistaken on that one. We aren't marketing it to anyone or aspiring to send it out as the be all end all of polls in it's first few weeks.
You wouldn't understand the way the poll works so we decided to keep it from you and your elementary understanding of statistics. Sorry Tanks but it's for your own good.
Zero transparency, I ain't providing any transparency cuz it's brand **** new and until the guy that built it decides he wants to let it be know then I sure as the hell ain't doing it. You're acting like a bitch because you can't get some questions answered that you want answered right now?
Nice comeback. It appears you are trying to shop it around as it gets posted on AGS, the site everyone here claims to hate. It has been presented in at least one other forum.
Since you cant explain the methology of the poll, the number of voters, and the controls in place you state I cant understand it--ok. Believe me I can understand the criteria (if it exists) on which you compute a top 25 poll with about 15 data imputs (voters).
You state "You wouldn't understand the way the poll works so we decided to keep it from you and your elementary understanding of statistics. Sorry Tanks but it's for your own good."
really?? you use the phrase elementary understanding of stats-- that is what I said to you...Whay did you say the same thing back to me? Couldnt think of anything else so you use what I said to you--ok.
I am not acting like a bitch. I am questioning the validity of a poll that refuses to divulge key drivers of acuracy. You are the one flying off the handle when I am asking a simple question.
Take it FWIW, but I helped start the AGS poll and I think the poll should include first place votes, as well as ORV's. If the CS poll decides it doesn't want to, no biggie.
That said, I do think the Coaches Poll, showing first place votes and therefore how many people voted, kind of discredits it (less than 30 voters) and the TSN Poll, showing absolutely ridiculous ORV's, totally discredits it... maybe CS shouldn't show this yet.
89Hen wrote:Take it FWIW, but I helped start the AGS poll and I think the poll should include first place votes, as well as ORV's. If the CS poll decides it doesn't want to, no biggie.
That said, I do think the Coaches Poll, showing first place votes and therefore how many people voted, kind of discredits it (less than 30 voters) and the TSN Poll, showing absolutely ridiculous ORV's, totally discredits it... maybe CS shouldn't show this yet.
Your post sort of hit my thinking on the head when it comes to polls.
Does having more voters make the poll better or more legitimate? I don't really think it does.
I'd rather have a goup of 10 poeple voting that know what they are talking about then a group of 100 voting with 10 guys that know what they are talking about scattered throughout. In the latter case, you have the polls of 90 people clouding the reasoned opinions of the 10.
I don't think the 28 voters in the Coaches poll discredits the poll. I think the fact that the coaches don't have time to vote or delegate the task to SID's is what discredits the poll. As for the TSN poll, the OVR's indicate that a lot of voters are complete homers and are using that poll to create something to write about for their home team.
I think the cs.com poll is great, and I don't think there is any bias in it. I believe everyone here takes it seriously and isn't tilted in one way or another. Honestly, there were so much upsets in this weeks poll that I didn't know what to do, and being relatively new to the FCS, decided not to vote to not be unfair. The cs.com poll is a good one, and it'll pick up in due time. And if it doesn't, oh well...not much is lost. I mean, is this like the BCS where rankings truly matter in the committee's choices? Do any of the FCS polls actually matter at the end since this is a playoff system? Educate me, I really don't know.
Franks Tanks wrote:
Nice comeback. It appears you are trying to shop it around as it gets posted on AGS, the site everyone here claims to hate. It has been presented in at least one other forum.
it gets posted on other message boards and that's shopping it around? Jeesus Christ Tanks that's pretty weak. We have AGS's poll up here every week for discussion and as I told you once already that is why we decided to do one ourselves...it drives thought and discussion.
Since you cant explain the methology of the poll, the number of voters, and the controls in place you state I cant understand it--ok. Believe me I can understand the criteria (if it exists) on which you compute a top 25 poll with about 15 data imputs (voters).
The methodology isn't any of your business. The only thing that is available to you is the result. We don't need a thief taking what someone has done and trying to pass it off as their own as I'm becoming more and more certain you are trying to do here. Are you the new "poll" guy at AGS? Is that what this is all about Franky? Why all the angst there buddy, you seem awfully invested in finding something out that is beyond your scope. Keep trying though and keep telling you "no".
You state "You wouldn't understand the way the poll works so we decided to keep it from you and your elementary understanding of statistics. Sorry Tanks but it's for your own good."
really?? you use the phrase elementary understanding of stats-- that is what I said to you...Whay did you say the same thing back to me? Couldnt think of anything else so you use what I said to you--ok.
Fishtank, I used the exact term you used to twist it on ya a little and thow out a little jab/insult at ya. If you can't understand that I can't help ya, and you can't expect me to consider you worthy of any information beyond the 4 piece puzzle that I am giving you.
I am not acting like a bitch. I am questioning the validity of a poll that refuses to divulge key drivers of acuracy. You are the one flying off the handle when I am asking a simple question.
I'm sorry if you thought I flew off the handle. I asked you why you were so concerned and previous to that I asked why you took a shot at the poll when I had no idea that you had some animosity toward not being in the know on certain aspects. You may not be a bitch but you certainly are whining like one to get something that I ain't willing to divulge to you. I will continue to fight with you on it if you want but I'm not gonna coddle you about it.
Maybe when this year is over and we see what all we can do to make this thing exactly like we want it we'll let you vote in what is a very good poll but you are gonna have to work on your attitude and make some changes. Good luck to ya.
∞∞∞ wrote:I think the cs.com poll is great, and I don't think there is any bias in it. I believe everyone here takes it seriously and isn't tilted in one way or another. Honestly, there were so much upsets in this weeks poll that I didn't know what to do, and being relatively new to the FCS, decided not to vote to not be unfair. The cs.com poll is a good one, and it'll pick up in due time. And if it doesn't, oh well...not much is lost. I mean, is this like the BCS where rankings truly matter in the committee's choices? Do any of the FCS polls actually matter at the end since this is a playoff system? Educate me, I really don't know.
Despite what some will try and make you believe, none of the polls or the GPI matter. The Committee has its own ranking system which it updates on its weekly conference call.
89Hen wrote:Take it FWIW, but I helped start the AGS poll and I think the poll should include first place votes, as well as ORV's. If the CS poll decides it doesn't want to, no biggie.
That said, I do think the Coaches Poll, showing first place votes and therefore how many people voted, kind of discredits it (less than 30 voters) and the TSN Poll, showing absolutely ridiculous ORV's, totally discredits it... maybe CS shouldn't show this yet.
Your post sort of hit my thinking on the head when it comes to polls.
Does having more voters make the poll better or more legitimate? I don't really think it does.
I'd rather have a goup of 10 poeple voting that know what they are talking about then a group of 100 voting with 10 guys that know what they are talking about scattered throughout. In the latter case, you have the polls of 90 people clouding the reasoned opinions of the 10.
I don't think the 28 voters in the Coaches poll discredits the poll. I think the fact that the coaches don't have time to vote or delegate the task to SID's is what discredits the poll. As for the TSN poll, the OVR's indicate that a lot of voters are complete homers and are using that poll to create something to write about for their home team.
No--not necessarily. But if we knew that those 10 voters were a panel of experts then yes I would have confidence 10 people could put together a vlid poll.
When the pollsters are not widely known experts, then more people disperses bias and questionable choices that may occur in non-expert opinions.
danefan wrote:
Your post sort of hit my thinking on the head when it comes to polls.
Does having more voters make the poll better or more legitimate? I don't really think it does.
I'd rather have a goup of 10 poeple voting that know what they are talking about then a group of 100 voting with 10 guys that know what they are talking about scattered throughout. In the latter case, you have the polls of 90 people clouding the reasoned opinions of the 10.
I don't think the 28 voters in the Coaches poll discredits the poll. I think the fact that the coaches don't have time to vote or delegate the task to SID's is what discredits the poll. As for the TSN poll, the OVR's indicate that a lot of voters are complete homers and are using that poll to create something to write about for their home team.
No--not necessarily. But if we knew that those 10 voters were a panel of experts then yes I would have confidence 10 people could put together a vlid poll.
When the pollsters are not widely known experts, then more people disperses bias and questionable choices that may occur in non-expert opinions.
Valid points. I would contend that there are a sufficient number of "FCS Experts" (if there is such a thing) that vote in the CS.com poll to make it valid regardless of the number of total voters.
Last edited by danefan on Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Franks Tanks wrote:
Nice comeback. It appears you are trying to shop it around as it gets posted on AGS, the site everyone here claims to hate. It has been presented in at least one other forum.
Since you cant explain the methology of the poll, the number of voters, and the controls in place you state I cant understand it--ok. Believe me I can understand the criteria (if it exists) on which you compute a top 25 poll with about 15 data imputs (voters).
You state "You wouldn't understand the way the poll works so we decided to keep it from you and your elementary understanding of statistics. Sorry Tanks but it's for your own good."
really?? you use the phrase elementary understanding of stats-- that is what I said to you...Whay did you say the same thing back to me? Couldnt think of anything else so you use what I said to you--ok.
I am not acting like a bitch. I am questioning the validity of a poll that refuses to divulge key drivers of acuracy. You are the one flying off the handle when I am asking a simple question.
Maybe when this year is over and we see what all we can do to make this thing exactly like we want it we'll let you vote in what is a very good poll but you are gonna have to work on your attitude and make some changes. Good luck to ya.
I dont care about the CS, AGS, or any other. I dont and will not vote in any despite being invited. I just simply think its funny that a poll fails to divulge whats standards are being used to come up with the results. It may come to a conslusion that appears valid, but that doesnt mean the road used to get to the destination is correct.
Franks Tanks wrote:
No--not necessarily. But if we knew that those 10 voters were a panel of experts then yes I would have confidence 10 people could put together a vlid poll.
When the pollsters are not widely known experts, then more people disperses bias and questionable choices that may occur in non-expert opinions.
Valid points. I would contend that there are a sufficient number of "FCS Experts" (if there is such a thing) that vote in the CS.com poll to make it valid regardless of the number of total voters.
Thats fine. If your position is that the CS.com poll is made up of the opinions of select FCS experts I can buy that. I am not going to argue what consitutes an expert, but in this approach I feel the experts should be known.
If its more of a general consenus poll I feel a larger representative sample is needed.
89Hen wrote:Take it FWIW, but I helped start the AGS poll and I think the poll should include first place votes, as well as ORV's. If the CS poll decides it doesn't want to, no biggie.
That said, I do think the Coaches Poll, showing first place votes and therefore how many people voted, kind of discredits it (less than 30 voters) and the TSN Poll, showing absolutely ridiculous ORV's, totally discredits it... maybe CS shouldn't show this yet.
That's exactly what I think about it too. This needs to have some issues ironed out so why not make note of them and do what can be done to fix them before putting it out there. I mean what the fuck is wrong with testing the thing out this year before just saying "here it is and it's all peachy so you should bow down to this poll". We wanted to create something to spur talk and we did. It ain't nothing more than that at this point and the fact that it looks fairly decent by comparison is a little bit of pride to those doing it and voting in it and that is somehow a problem because someone doesn't get to watch the gears turning? I don't get it.
Maybe when this year is over and we see what all we can do to make this thing exactly like we want it we'll let you vote in what is a very good poll but you are gonna have to work on your attitude and make some changes. Good luck to ya.
I dont care about the CS, AGS, or any other. I dont and will not vote in any despite being invited. I just simply think its funny that a poll fails to divulge whats standards are being used to come up with the results. It may come to a conslusion that appears valid, but that doesnt mean the road used to get to the destination is correct.
Got it. If the destination is achieved but the road varies from what you think the route ought to be to get there then the destination is unsuccessful.
you do not vote but you are concerned with how many people are voting and if they would pass your criteria for knowing what to vote for.
I do not have a problem with the formula, I just think it is a little overdone. Vote, give points per place and then show top 25 along with first place votes and others receiving votes.
Franks Tanks wrote:
I dont care about the CS, AGS, or any other. I dont and will not vote in any despite being invited. I just simply think its funny that a poll fails to divulge whats standards are being used to come up with the results. It may come to a conslusion that appears valid, but that doesnt mean the road used to get to the destination is correct.
Got it. If the destination is achieved but the road varies from what you think the route ought to be to get there then the destination is unsuccessful.
you do not vote but you are concerned with how many people are voting and if they would pass your criteria for knowing what to vote for.
Truly unfuckingbelivable nonsense there.
NO-- incorrect again.
The destination may be correct, but if you get there using potentially questionable means it is unreasonable to expect similiar quality results in the future. I can get an algebra problem right on a test be kinda knowing what I am doing and guessing, but if i dont fully understand the process of solving that problem I will not get it correct on a consistent basis.
I dont care about the AGS poll, not am I invloved in anyway. YOU are the one that got extremely bent out of shape when I asked what criteria is being used for your results..it is a common question.
In any industry people not only care about the end product, but also how you achieved the end product. if you cant explain how the end product is constructed expect questions.
dgreco wrote:I do not have a problem with the formula, I just think it is a little overdone. Vote, give points per place and then show top 25 along with first place votes and others receiving votes.
A very traditional way of doing things. I commend the cs.com poll for thinking outside of the box a bit, but when thinking outside of the box be prepared to explain the rational for doing so and the new criteria.
Ursus A. Horribilis wrote:
Got it. If the destination is achieved but the road varies from what you think the route ought to be to get there then the destination is unsuccessful.
you do not vote but you are concerned with how many people are voting and if they would pass your criteria for knowing what to vote for.
Truly unfuckingbelivable nonsense there.
NO-- incorrect again.
The destination may be correct, but if you get there using potentially questionable means it is unreasonable to expect similiar quality results in the future. I can get an algebra problem right on a test be kinda knowing what I am doing and guessing, but if i dont fully understand the process of solving that problem I will not get it correct on a consistent basis.
I dont care about the AGS poll, not am I invloved in anyway. YOU are the one that got extremely bent out of shape when I asked what criteria is being used for your results..it is a common question.
In any industry people not only care about the end product, but also how you achieved the end product. if you cant explain how the end product is constructed expect questions.
YOU don't have to know the answer to the problem Tanks. If you keep putting data in the calculator and the answer keeps coming up correctly then you don't need to know the way there. Just that you put the data in correctly. If you keep getting the right answer then you can reasonably assume that the calculator is still working.
I'm sorry you feel slighted because you didn't get your questions answered.
The destination may be correct, but if you get there using potentially questionable means it is unreasonable to expect similiar quality results in the future. I can get an algebra problem right on a test be kinda knowing what I am doing and guessing, but if i dont fully understand the process of solving that problem I will not get it correct on a consistent basis.
I dont care about the AGS poll, not am I invloved in anyway. YOU are the one that got extremely bent out of shape when I asked what criteria is being used for your results..it is a common question.
In any industry people not only care about the end product, but also how you achieved the end product. if you cant explain how the end product is constructed expect questions.
YOU don't have to know the answer to the problem Tanks. If you keep putting data in the calculator and the answer keeps coming up correctly then you don't need to know the way there. Just that you put the data in correctly. If you keep getting the right answer then you can reasonably assume that the calculator is still working.
I'm sorry you feel slighted because you didn't get your questions answered.
I dont feel slighted. Every other poll has published criteria and transparency..if you choose not to that is your call. However, dont get your panties in a bunch when someone calls you out on it and you cant provide an explanation.
Last time a checked the calculator uses a defined set of criteria to provide answers based on inputs. This is what I was asking--what is your calculator and what are your inputs???
At this point I dont care-- I asked a simple question that is obviously a sore subject so you reacted harshly. You are right about one thing I dont care about the poll, or any poll, so I should stop arguing. I will leave your chubby ass alone so you can go back to playing with sprinklers ok... have fun
