The Ukraine Crisis

[SeattleGriz]

Busted. Data isn't even in yet and they were blaming Putin.

[BDKJMU]

So which is it?

[houndawg]

Enough for what? I agree that Russia is suffering tremendously in their invasion, but if at the end of the day they still come out of this with carving up Ukraine a little bit more, on top of still holding on to the land grab they got away with in Crimea a few years ago, they'll still see this as a move in a positive direction (Russia doesn't seem to give a crap about people's lives, their own or the Ukrainians). Ukraine will still survive, just with less land than they had before, and now they'll be forced to swear off both NATO and the EU and hope that Russia, in the next 10 years, doesn't decide to take another sliver of territory. Ukraine must know by now that no one is coming to the rescue, they're fighting this on their own. China is certainly seeing the negative impacts of violent land grabs, but I don't have a lot of hope that Taiwan would fight as desperately as Ukraine and I think it would be a far quicker engagement. And I can't imagine that the world would be ready to economically sanction China like they have Russia. As others have said, Russia is like a 3rd world 7-Eleven with gas pumps. China still has their hands in a thousand more things we use everyday as compared to Russia.

Yep. Not buying the "Russia is losing" narrative if they come out ahead at the end of this.

They've already lost world opinion, their vastly overrated and now humiliated military ran into a buzz saw, and their General officers would prefer a sniper's bullet in the front lines over returning to Moscow for drinks with Putin. Ignoring the humanitarian aspect for a moment - this is a golden opportunity to: demonstrate that America is Great Again (see what I did there ), shove a long overdue stick up Putin's ass, and encourage the Chinese to think carefully about pulling the tiger's tail.

One of FDR's most effective moves of WW2 was to keep the Russians supplied with just enough to keep fighting the Germans defensively but not enough to go on the offensive toward Europe, a move which saved beaucoup American lives and left us at the end of the war with comparitively few casualties, the planet's only decent manufacturing base, and the world as our oyster. Of course we fucked it up in short order by our inability to look any further than the quarterly P&L sheet, but thats a different story.

Whoever thought that it would be Joe Biden at the helm as we MAGA? I know I didn't, and I'm sure SD Hornet didn't.


Tough times for your crowd, SD, but you still have a couple of elections coming up where you'll be able to proudly demonstrate your Russophilia. Hang in there, comrade.

[kalm]

This is a terrific and sobering read. A great historical view of what’s happened over the past 30 years and the lessons not learned.

You can make a solid case that all of the west is at war with Russia. Or the entire Democratic world is at war with autocracy. We’re just not fully engaged yet because of greed.

With the third, more brutal invasion of Ukraine, the vacuity of those beliefs was revealed. The Russian president openly denied the existence of a legitimate Ukrainian state: “Russians and Ukrainians,” he said, “were one people—a single whole.” His army targeted civilians, hospitals, and schools. His policies aimed to create refugees so as to destabilize Western Europe. “Never again” was exposed as an empty slogan while a genocidal plan took shape in front of our eyes, right along the European Union’s eastern border. Other autocracies watched to see what we would do about it, for Russia is not the only nation in the world that covets its neighbors’ territory, that seeks to destroy entire populations, that has no qualms about the use of mass violence. North Korea can attack South Korea at any time, and has nuclear weapons that can hit Japan. China seeks to eliminate the Uyghurs as a distinct ethnic group, and has imperial designs on Taiwan……………………..

There is no natural liberal world order, and there are no rules without someone to enforce them. Unless democracies defend themselves together, the forces of autocracy will destroy them. I am using the word forces, in the plural, deliberately. Many American politicians would understandably prefer to focus on the long-term competition with China. But as long as Russia is ruled by Putin, then Russia is at war with us too. So are Belarus, North Korea, Venezuela, Iran, Nicaragua, Hungary, and potentially many others. We might not want to compete with them, or even care very much about them. But they care about us. They understand that the language of democracy, anti-corruption, and justice is dangerous to their form of autocratic power—and they know that that language originates in the democratic world, our world.

Perhaps we can learn something from the Ukrainians. They are showing us how to have both patriotism and liberal values.
This fight is not theoretical. It requires armies, strategies, weapons, and long-term plans. It requires much closer allied cooperation, not only in Europe but in the Pacific, Africa, and Latin America. NATO can no longer operate as if it might someday be required to defend itself; it needs to start operating as it did during the Cold War, on the assumption that an invasion could happen at any time. Germany’s decision to raise defense spending by 100 billion euros is a good start; so is Denmark’s declaration that it too will boost defense spending. But deeper military and intelligence coordination might require new institutions—perhaps a voluntary European Legion, connected to the European Union, or a Baltic alliance that includes Sweden and Finland—and different thinking about where and how we invest in European and Pacific defense.

Trading with autocrats promotes autocracy, not democracy. Congress has made some progress in recent months in the fight against global kleptocracy, and the Biden administration was right to put the fight against corruption at the heart of its political strategy. But we can go much further, because there is no reason for any company, property, or trust ever to be held anonymously. Every U.S. state, and every democratic country, should immediately make all ownership transparent. Tax havens should be illegal. The only people who need to keep their houses, businesses, and income secret are crooks and tax cheats.

We need a dramatic and profound shift in our energy consumption, and not only because of climate change. The billions of dollars we have sent to Russia, Iran, Venezuela, and Saudi Arabia have promoted some of the worst and most corrupt dictators in the world. The transition from oil and gas to other energy sources needs to happen with far greater speed and decisiveness. Every dollar spent on Russian oil helps fund the artillery that fires on Ukrainian civilians.

Take democracy seriously. Teach it, debate it, improve it, defend it. Maybe there is no natural liberal world order, but there are liberal societies, open and free countries that offer a better chance for people to live useful lives than closed dictatorships do. They are hardly perfect; our own has deep flaws, profound divisions, terrible historical scars. But that’s all the more reason to defend and protect them. Few of them have existed across human history; many have existed for a time and then failed. They can be destroyed from the outside, but from the inside, too, by divisions and demagogues.

Perhaps, in the aftermath of this crisis, we can learn something from the Ukrainians. For decades now, we’ve been fighting a culture war between liberal values on the one hand and muscular forms of patriotism on the other. The Ukrainians are showing us a way to have both. As soon as the attacks began, they overcame their many political divisions, which are no less bitter than ours, and they picked up weapons to fight for their sovereignty and their democracy. They demonstrated that it is possible to be a patriot and a believer in an open society, that a democracy can be stronger and fiercer than its opponents. Precisely because there is no liberal world order, no norms and no rules, we must fight ferociously for the values and the hopes of liberalism if we want our open societies to continue to exist.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... HJCiav31ro

[CID1990]

This is a terrific and sobering read. A great historical view of what’s happened over the past 30 years and the lessons not learned.

You can make a solid case that all of the west is at war with Russia. Or the entire Democratic world is at war with autocracy. We’re just not fully engaged yet because of greed.

With the third, more brutal invasion of Ukraine, the vacuity of those beliefs was revealed. The Russian president openly denied the existence of a legitimate Ukrainian state: “Russians and Ukrainians,” he said, “were one people—a single whole.” His army targeted civilians, hospitals, and schools. His policies aimed to create refugees so as to destabilize Western Europe. “Never again” was exposed as an empty slogan while a genocidal plan took shape in front of our eyes, right along the European Union’s eastern border. Other autocracies watched to see what we would do about it, for Russia is not the only nation in the world that covets its neighbors’ territory, that seeks to destroy entire populations, that has no qualms about the use of mass violence. North Korea can attack South Korea at any time, and has nuclear weapons that can hit Japan. China seeks to eliminate the Uyghurs as a distinct ethnic group, and has imperial designs on Taiwan……………………..

There is no natural liberal world order, and there are no rules without someone to enforce them. Unless democracies defend themselves together, the forces of autocracy will destroy them. I am using the word forces, in the plural, deliberately. Many American politicians would understandably prefer to focus on the long-term competition with China. But as long as Russia is ruled by Putin, then Russia is at war with us too. So are Belarus, North Korea, Venezuela, Iran, Nicaragua, Hungary, and potentially many others. We might not want to compete with them, or even care very much about them. But they care about us. They understand that the language of democracy, anti-corruption, and justice is dangerous to their form of autocratic power—and they know that that language originates in the democratic world, our world.

Perhaps we can learn something from the Ukrainians. They are showing us how to have both patriotism and liberal values.
This fight is not theoretical. It requires armies, strategies, weapons, and long-term plans. It requires much closer allied cooperation, not only in Europe but in the Pacific, Africa, and Latin America. NATO can no longer operate as if it might someday be required to defend itself; it needs to start operating as it did during the Cold War, on the assumption that an invasion could happen at any time. Germany’s decision to raise defense spending by 100 billion euros is a good start; so is Denmark’s declaration that it too will boost defense spending. But deeper military and intelligence coordination might require new institutions—perhaps a voluntary European Legion, connected to the European Union, or a Baltic alliance that includes Sweden and Finland—and different thinking about where and how we invest in European and Pacific defense.

Trading with autocrats promotes autocracy, not democracy. Congress has made some progress in recent months in the fight against global kleptocracy, and the Biden administration was right to put the fight against corruption at the heart of its political strategy. But we can go much further, because there is no reason for any company, property, or trust ever to be held anonymously. Every U.S. state, and every democratic country, should immediately make all ownership transparent. Tax havens should be illegal. The only people who need to keep their houses, businesses, and income secret are crooks and tax cheats.

We need a dramatic and profound shift in our energy consumption, and not only because of climate change. The billions of dollars we have sent to Russia, Iran, Venezuela, and Saudi Arabia have promoted some of the worst and most corrupt dictators in the world. The transition from oil and gas to other energy sources needs to happen with far greater speed and decisiveness. Every dollar spent on Russian oil helps fund the artillery that fires on Ukrainian civilians.

Take democracy seriously. Teach it, debate it, improve it, defend it. Maybe there is no natural liberal world order, but there are liberal societies, open and free countries that offer a better chance for people to live useful lives than closed dictatorships do. They are hardly perfect; our own has deep flaws, profound divisions, terrible historical scars. But that’s all the more reason to defend and protect them. Few of them have existed across human history; many have existed for a time and then failed. They can be destroyed from the outside, but from the inside, too, by divisions and demagogues.

Perhaps, in the aftermath of this crisis, we can learn something from the Ukrainians. For decades now, we’ve been fighting a culture war between liberal values on the one hand and muscular forms of patriotism on the other. The Ukrainians are showing us a way to have both. As soon as the attacks began, they overcame their many political divisions, which are no less bitter than ours, and they picked up weapons to fight for their sovereignty and their democracy. They demonstrated that it is possible to be a patriot and a believer in an open society, that a democracy can be stronger and fiercer than its opponents. Precisely because there is no liberal world order, no norms and no rules, we must fight ferociously for the values and the hopes of liberalism if we want our open societies to continue to exist.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... HJCiav31ro

I read this I think yesterday and all I could think to myself was——

What if democracy doesn’t want to do those things? I know American democracy doesn’t. American democracy is more concerned with who uses what bathroom and the media distraction du jour.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kalm]

This is a terrific and sobering read. A great historical view of what’s happened over the past 30 years and the lessons not learned.

You can make a solid case that all of the west is at war with Russia. Or the entire Democratic world is at war with autocracy. We’re just not fully engaged yet because of greed.



https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... HJCiav31ro

I read this I think yesterday and all I could think to myself was——

What if democracy doesn’t want to do those things? I know American democracy doesn’t. American democracy is more concerned with who uses what bathroom and the media distraction du jour.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That’s a fair point. Still better than any alternatives I can think of.

[kalm]

One of Russia’s elite and experienced fighting units…

In any war, there are units that distinguish themselves and others that become symbolic of failure. The 331st Guards Parachute Regiment had high hopes of being the first, but now represents the disintegration of Russia's plan for a quick war.

The regiment's commanding officer, Col Sergei Sukharev, was killed in Ukraine on 13 March, and was posthumously awarded the Hero of the Russian Federation medal. At his funeral, deputy defence minister Gen Yuri Sadovenko said the colonel "lived for the future, for the future of our people, a future without Nazism".

…………..

On the memorial wall for Sergeant Sergei Duganov, one woman wrote: "Nobody knows anything. The 331st regiment is disappearing. Almost every day, photos of our Kostroma boys get published. It sends shivers down my spine. What's happening? When will this end? When will people stop dying?"

Her post was followed by another, which exclaimed: "Kostroma has lost so many young men, what a tragedy". Another pleaded: "God, how many more death notifications shall we receive? Please have mercy on our boys, help them survive, return them back home to their wives and mothers. I'm begging you!"

https://bbc.in/3IZ7WuT?fbclid=IwAR1VGMY ... sEqAKO1t0c

[AZGrizFan]

Yep. Not buying the "Russia is losing" narrative if they come out ahead at the end of this.

They've already lost world opinion, their vastly overrated and now humiliated military ran into a buzz saw, and their General officers would prefer a sniper's bullet in the front lines over returning to Moscow for drinks with Putin. Ignoring the humanitarian aspect for a moment - this is a golden opportunity to: demonstrate that America is Great Again (see what I did there ), shove a long overdue stick up Putin's ass, and encourage the Chinese to think carefully about pulling the tiger's tail.


Whoever thought that it would be Joe Biden at the helm as we MAGA? I know I didn't, and I'm sure SD Hornet didn't.


Tough times for your crowd, SD, but you still have a couple of elections coming up where you'll be able to proudly demonstrate your Russophilia. Hang in there, comrade.

The funniest part of your word salad is that you seem to believe that Biden WILL somehow magically find a brainstem and “demonstrate that America is Great Again…and shove a long overdue stick up Putin’s ass and encourage the Chinese to think carefully about pulling the tiger’s tail.’’ He’s done literally NOTHING to demonstrate that capability.

When China invades Taiwan (as it inevitably will) and we do absolutely zero shit about it, we can revisit this prediction of Biden’s awesomeness.

[CID1990]

The Russians are murdering civilians and mining towns and cities they evacuate.

https://hotair.com/allahpundit/2022/04/ ... nd-n459626

I guess all those corpses were Nazis. Or maybe it was actually the Azov Battalion that killed them in fully Russian occupied areas.


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[kalm]

The Russians are murdering civilians and mining towns and cities they evacuate.

https://hotair.com/allahpundit/2022/04/ ... nd-n459626

I guess all those corpses were Nazis. Or maybe it was actually the Azov Battalion that killed them in fully Russian occupied areas.


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Summarising: it looks like Russia planned a fast victory over Ukrainian army, full occupation of Ukraine and a genocide, including mass executions of Ukrainian civil society leaders, politicians, cultural leaders, clerics, etc. The scale of planned genocide was unseen since WWII.

For understanding: here are details from the Russian State technical standard for mass graves, it describes with plans and pictures, how the grave should be dug+isolated, how corpses should be covered with chemicals and how the full grave should be trumped by a heavy bulldozer.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1510 ... R4kq_Xw0mE

[houndawg]

They've already lost world opinion, their vastly overrated and now humiliated military ran into a buzz saw, and their General officers would prefer a sniper's bullet in the front lines over returning to Moscow for drinks with Putin. Ignoring the humanitarian aspect for a moment - this is a golden opportunity to: demonstrate that America is Great Again (see what I did there ), shove a long overdue stick up Putin's ass, and encourage the Chinese to think carefully about pulling the tiger's tail.


Whoever thought that it would be Joe Biden at the helm as we MAGA? I know I didn't, and I'm sure SD Hornet didn't.


Tough times for your crowd, SD, but you still have a couple of elections coming up where you'll be able to proudly demonstrate your Russophilia. Hang in there, comrade.

The funniest part of your word salad is that you seem to believe that Biden WILL somehow magically find a brainstem and “demonstrate that America is Great Again…and shove a long overdue stick up Putin’s ass and encourage the Chinese to think carefully about pulling the tiger’s tail.’’ He’s done literally NOTHING to demonstrate that capability.

When China invades Taiwan (as it inevitably will) and we do absolutely zero shit about it, we can revisit this prediction of Biden’s awesomeness.

That's the beauty of it from his POV - he doesn't have to actually do anything but make sure that Ukraine has what it needs to continue whoopin Russian ass and then sit back and take credit for his firm stance against Russian aggression while Ukraine does the work. Even easier than stealing money from your own charity!

[AZGrizFan]

The funniest part of your word salad is that you seem to believe that Biden WILL somehow magically find a brainstem and “demonstrate that America is Great Again…and shove a long overdue stick up Putin’s ass and encourage the Chinese to think carefully about pulling the tiger’s tail.’’ He’s done literally NOTHING to demonstrate that capability.

When China invades Taiwan (as it inevitably will) and we do absolutely zero shit about it, we can revisit this prediction of Biden’s awesomeness.

That's the beauty of it from his POV - he doesn't have to actually do anything but make sure that Ukraine has what it needs to continue whoopin Russian ass and then sit back and take credit for his firm stance against Russian aggression while Ukraine does the work. Even easier than stealing money from your own charity!

Which he and the Clintons have also perfected.

[houndawg]

That's the beauty of it from his POV - he doesn't have to actually do anything but make sure that Ukraine has what it needs to continue whoopin Russian ass and then sit back and take credit for his firm stance against Russian aggression while Ukraine does the work. Even easier than stealing money from your own charity!

Which he and the Clintons have also perfected.

Anybody operating successfully at that level has

[kalm]

War sucks

“You know that feeling when it hurts? I once fell in love with a boy, but he didn’t fall in love with me, and I thought it hurt. But it turned out that it hurts to see your mother die in front of you”, says 16 y.o. girl from Mariupol, a hell on earth
1/11


My brother keeps coming up to mom, saying, “Mommy, don’t sleep, you will freeze”.
We will never visit her grave. She has remained in the damp and dark basement.
We went to the toilet, slept, ate leftovers in the same basement
2/11
Once uncle Kolya caught a pigeon, and we fried it and ate it. And then we all vomited.
Mom held on to the last, 3 days before our evacuation, she died.
I told my brother that she was asleep and should not be awakened. But he seems to have understood it all.
3/11
…Our neighbor died, and we could not carry her outside, and she began to smell.
When it got quiet uncle Kolya carried her out, and himself got killed on a trip wire.
Mom cried a lot. After dad died uncle Kolya was the closest person.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1510 ... 1lU-g915yU

[kalm]

Dozens of photos of Ukrainian civilians with hands tied behind their back, summarily executed. A new Holocaust by bullets. To think so many laughed it off just weeks ago, or days even

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1510 ... fuOkdJ9fuQ

[Skjellyfetti]

[Skjellyfetti]

I guess all those corpses were Nazis. Or maybe it was actually the Azov Battalion that killed them in fully Russian occupied areas.

Russian state media's line is that these all happened *after* Russia retreated.

There will be plenty of people buying that bullshit as well.

[houndawg]

I guess all those corpses were Nazis. Or maybe it was actually the Azov Battalion that killed them in fully Russian occupied areas.

Russian state media's line is that these all happened *after* Russia retreated.

There will be plenty of people buying that bullshit as well.

Paging SDHornet........

[kalm]

Russian state media's line is that these all happened *after* Russia retreated.

There will be plenty of people buying that bullshit as well.

Paging SDHornet........

"Denazification is inevitably also deukrainisation – a rejection of the large-scale artificial inflation of the ethnic element of self-identification of the population of the territories of the historical Malorossiya and Novorossiya begun by the Soviet authorities"
"Unlike, let’s say, Georgia or the Baltics, Ukraine, as history has shown, is unviable as a national state, and attempts to 'build' one logically lead to Nazism"

"The Banderite elite must be liquidated, its reeducation is impossible. The social 'swamp' which actively and passively supports it must undergo the hardships of war and digest the experience as a historical lesson and atonement" END

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1510 ... cUCC-UF_ss

[kalm]

Interesting read on why “give them weapons” is not that simple. Thoughts from any of the board’s military experts?

During this war, there's been calls for the US to give UKR more _____________ (fill in the blank with M1 Abrams tanks, Patriot Missile Systems, F16s, A10s, etc).

Those calls often come from politicians, reporters, or those with little knowledge of weapons.
A to discuss. 1/23
I'm all for giving UKR the systems they need (and want), if those help the war effort.

But there are many factors that go into the decision to provide arms beyond "this would be a game changer!"

When giving or selling arms to other nations, there are considerations: 2/……..

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1510 ... 61472.html

[CID1990]

Paging SDHornet........

"Denazification is inevitably also deukrainisation – a rejection of the large-scale artificial inflation of the ethnic element of self-identification of the population of the territories of the historical Malorossiya and Novorossiya begun by the Soviet authorities"
"Unlike, let’s say, Georgia or the Baltics, Ukraine, as history has shown, is unviable as a national state, and attempts to 'build' one logically lead to Nazism"

"The Banderite elite must be liquidated, its reeducation is impossible. The social 'swamp' which actively and passively supports it must undergo the hardships of war and digest the experience as a historical lesson and atonement" END

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1510 ... cUCC-UF_ss

Translation:

They’re all Nazis and therefore we can kill them all.


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[CAA Flagship]

We need a dramatic and profound shift in our energy consumption, and not only because of climate change. The billions of dollars we have sent to Russia, Iran, Venezuela, and Saudi Arabia have promoted some of the worst and most corrupt dictators in the world. The transition from oil and gas to other energy sources needs to happen with far greater speed and decisiveness. Every dollar spent on Russian oil helps fund the artillery that fires on Ukrainian civilians.

That paragraph reminds me of the "raise taxes vs. cut spending" argument.
So in this case, the author wants to focus on "consumption". I wonder where he/she stands on the national debt/budget deficit.

[SeattleGriz]

Russian state media's line is that these all happened *after* Russia retreated.

There will be plenty of people buying that bullshit as well.

Paging SDHornet........

Not buyin it. Amazing timing. Right after Azov atrocities, we have counter balancing Russia crimes. Bullshit.

[SDHornet]

Might want to go back and re-read my posts. I've never claimed all Ukrainians are nazis, nor validated the invasion in any form. Any yes, there are nazi's in Ukraine, as the MSM has clearly pointed out over the years.

So what’s your point? You seem to want to make sure everybody knows that there are neo Nazis in Ukraine. So what?

There are neo Nazis in Ukraine, SD. Ukraine has a long history of them since WWII. You want to know who else has issues with white nationalist extremists? Russia. Russia openly harbors numerous REMVEs who are under threat of arrest, sanction, or surveillance in the West.

BTW… did you know that the United States still has a large swath of people who defend a rebellion which was rooted in preservation of an institution of enslavement of Africans?

Better?

Do any of these things have any relevance AT ALL to a sovereign nation’s right to self defense? Because the “I’m just pointing stuff out” klam line is awfully suspicious when it is in response to people pointing out Russian atrocities in Ukraine.


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Point is the msm has spent the last 4+ years labeling anyone that doesn't go along with whatever ideology they are pushing as a "nazi". And now that there is a hot war involving real nazi's on the side we are supposed to be supporting we're just supposed to forget all about that and buy the idea that there are "good nazis" or that there are so few nazis that it doesn't matter now?

Yeah no. Fuck picking a side in this war. Only people I feel bad for are the civilians that are stuck in the middle of this.

[SDHornet]

I’m shocked SD or Seagriz didn’t make this post first.

Wasn't at a computer this weekend. Saw that clip and thought it was a brilliant operation. Hope the Ukrainians can pull off many more like it.