Coronavirus COVID-19

[Gil Dobie]

The vaccines that can legally be used in the United States work. To continue to argue otherwise is ridiculous.

What is being argued, otherwise? The fact the vaccines only prevent infection anywhere from 4-6 months.

Where vaccines given to prevent infection or lessen the chance of getting infected, hospitalized and die. From the beginning it was 90+% for a couple vaccines and around 50% for J&J. And like even the flu shot, the vaccines lose potency after a period of time.

[JohnStOnge]

Here is the bottom line, from the article at https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55274833, about what public health experts in the UK think about the effect of vaccination:

The UK Health Security Agency, which replaced Public Health England, estimates that, up to 24 September, the UK vaccination programme has prevented about 24 million infections, 260,000 hospitalisations and 127,500 deaths.

Worldometers does not have numbers on infections or hospitalizations. But they do have numbers on deaths. And they have the UK as having had 135,983 COVID-19 deaths as of September 24. That means they estimated that total cumulative deaths were about 52% of what they would have been without vaccination. And that's in spite of the fact that the UK had about 65,000 COVID-19 deaths before vaccination even got started.

It's hard to say what the 24 million fewer infection numbers means. But consider the fact that there have "only" been 8,193,769 COVID-19 cases to this point. It's very likely that 24 million fewer infections is very significant.

Vaccination is having a HUGE positive impact in the UK.

[JohnStOnge]

What is being argued, otherwise? The fact the vaccines only prevent infection anywhere from 4-6 months.

Where vaccines given to prevent infection or lessen the chance of getting infected, hospitalized and die. From the beginning it was 90+% for a couple vaccines and around 50% for J&J. And like even the flu shot, the vaccines lose potency after a period of time.

Remember also that those efficacy numbers were from clinical trails where they tried to make sure that people in the both the control and treatment groups were not previously infected. I look at stuff like the Louisiana numbers that are posted daily on the Louisiana Department of Health Web site. If we look at them in the same way as we looked at clinical trials, they would say that the efficacy of being fully vaccinated...all vaccines combined....is 79% with respect to being a COVID-19 case. But that "efficacy" does not involve the "pure" situation. It's comparing people who have been fully vaccinated to people who have had one dose of one of the mRNA vaccines. people who have been naturally infected, and people who have neither been vaccinated at all nor naturally infected.

The vaccines are very effective. Nobody could look at the numbers reported in the United States and reasonably think otherwise.

What we often see is people trying to look at individual trees while ignoring the forrest in order to, for some reason, argue that the vaccines aren't really effective. So they'll like look for some table they interpret in one way while the authors of the report the table is in are saying the vaccines are effective. But anyone can literally look at the gross data themselves and see that it's obvious that the vaccines are highly effective.

I just don't know why it's so important to some people to argue otherwise when otherwise is obviously not true.

With respect too the idea that the vaccination protection wanes over time: That's fine. They are monitoring that. I sure as heck want to get my Moderna booster as soon as possible. If it takes boosters it takes boosters. Just do the boosters.

[UNI88]

It's also not rational to believe that socialism will work this time but there are plenty of people on the left who do believe it.

We're way off topic but I'll comment on that. I don't think anybody wants pure socialism any more than anybody wants pure capitalism. People say all the time that "socialism" has never worked. Yet we have the 800 pound Gorilla China debunking that. People will argue that China has capitalist elements. And it does. But it's a socialist/communist country. I would not want to live under China's system. But saying that it isn't a successful nation is pretty self evidently false. I don't think anyone who got into a time machine, traveled 50 years into the future, and saw that China had replaced the United States as the world's dominant nation would be surprised. It's not inevitable. But it wouldn't be a surprise. And right now it's clearly in second position.

I don't think there are any examples of successful purely capitalist nations either. The United States is not a purely capitalist nation. Government does exercise some control over the means of production. There is an awful lot of regulation of what industry does. It is not, as the definition of capitalism goes, a country where "...trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state." The State exercises plenty of control.

In addition to that, there is no indication that any Democrat wants totalitarian socialism where government owns all means of production. I think that what Democrats want when they say "socialism" is really "social democracy." They want something along the line of the Nordic Model, though I think they may believe in more corporate taxation. But they don't want a system where Mom and Pop can't start a grocery store or Aunt and Uncle can't start a hair salon as private businesses.

I think Democrats like Sanders and AOC do make a mistake in using the term "Socialist" when that's not even really what they are talking about. But the Democrats are not a threat to make us a Socialist nation. And they are not a threat to create a minority rule situation. The Republicans are such a threat. I also think they are a threat to turn us into a Fascist country. I don't think their rank and file generally realize that. But they just supported an effort by a would be banana-republic style strong man to stay in power when he clearly lost an election. And they continue to support it. That's very bad. Very dangerous.

This is delusional thinking. You are a threat to the republic and shouldn't be allowed to vote.

[SDHornet]

Yet another reason as to why I'm not putting this shit in my kid.

Follower…

My decision is based on data. Couldn't care less what anyone says regarding putting this into people under 18 years old, or what other people put in their kids.

[SDHornet]

No. The vaxx either works or it doesn't. Trust the science.

The vaccines that can legally be used in the United States work. To continue to argue otherwise is ridiculous.

I'm sure it does. And the data shows certain age groups are at such a low risk of death that getting the vaxx is meaningless...especially since it doesn't stop transmission. The argument is against forced vaccinations for a new vaccine that we have no long term data on. I'm not against anyone who wants it getting it.

[UNI88]

Follower…

My decision is based on data. Couldn't care less what anyone says regarding putting this into people under 18 years old, or what other people put in their kids.

I don't always agree with SD but I don't doubt that he's looked at the data and is making the decisions that he feels are best for him and his family. I respect that.

[SDHornet]

We're way off topic but I'll comment on that. I don't think anybody wants pure socialism any more than anybody wants pure capitalism. People say all the time that "socialism" has never worked. Yet we have the 800 pound Gorilla China debunking that. People will argue that China has capitalist elements. And it does. But it's a socialist/communist country. I would not want to live under China's system. But saying that it isn't a successful nation is pretty self evidently false. I don't think anyone who got into a time machine, traveled 50 years into the future, and saw that China had replaced the United States as the world's dominant nation would be surprised. It's not inevitable. But it wouldn't be a surprise. And right now it's clearly in second position.

I don't think there are any examples of successful purely capitalist nations either. The United States is not a purely capitalist nation. Government does exercise some control over the means of production. There is an awful lot of regulation of what industry does. It is not, as the definition of capitalism goes, a country where "...trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state." The State exercises plenty of control.

In addition to that, there is no indication that any Democrat wants totalitarian socialism where government owns all means of production. I think that what Democrats want when they say "socialism" is really "social democracy." They want something along the line of the Nordic Model, though I think they may believe in more corporate taxation. But they don't want a system where Mom and Pop can't start a grocery store or Aunt and Uncle can't start a hair salon as private businesses.

I think Democrats like Sanders and AOC do make a mistake in using the term "Socialist" when that's not even really what they are talking about. But the Democrats are not a threat to make us a Socialist nation. And they are not a threat to create a minority rule situation. The Republicans are such a threat. I also think they are a threat to turn us into a Fascist country. I don't think their rank and file generally realize that. But they just supported an effort by a would be banana-republic style strong man to stay in power when he clearly lost an election. And they continue to support it. That's very bad. Very dangerous.

This is delusional thinking. You are a threat to the republic and shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Agreed, since Bernie, AOC and the rest of the squat have told us that is exactly what they want and are pushing policies that do exactly that.

[SDHornet]

My decision is based on data. Couldn't care less what anyone says regarding putting this into people under 18 years old, or what other people put in their kids.

I don't always agree with SD but I don't doubt that he's looked at the data and is making the decisions that he feels are best for him and his family. I respect that.

My concerns go away when we have enough long term data to understand what side effects (and their likelihoods) come from this never before used mRNA vaccine.

[kalm]

I don't always agree with SD but I don't doubt that he's looked at the data and is making the decisions that he feels are best for him and his family. I respect that.

My concerns go away when we have enough long term data to understand what side effects (and their likelihoods) come from this never before used mRNA vaccine.

Which is fine. Just stay away from others until we’re out of the woods.

Thanks!

[SDHornet]

Anyone following the Southwest Airlines pilot walkout/sickouts?

MSM is claiming weather is causing the flight cancellations, that somehow aren't impacting other carriers.

[CAA Flagship]

Anyone following the Southwest Airlines pilot walkout/sickouts?

MSM is claiming weather is causing the flight cancellations, that somehow aren't impacting other carriers.

My son is in the air right now on Southwest heading back to college from Fall Break. No problems.

But there are differences in airlines. Southwest has linear routes and not hubs. I haven't thought that out but it could be that a certain hiccup can affect them more than other airlines, and vicey versy.

[89Hen]

Anyone following the Southwest Airlines pilot walkout/sickouts?

MSM is claiming weather is causing the flight cancellations, that somehow aren't impacting other carriers.

Just glad I wasn't on Southwest this past weekend. Airport and schedules were running just fine.

[SDHornet]

Anyone following the Southwest Airlines pilot walkout/sickouts?

MSM is claiming weather is causing the flight cancellations, that somehow aren't impacting other carriers.

My son is in the air right now on Southwest heading back to college from Fall Break. No problems.

But there are differences in airlines. Southwest has linear routes and not hubs. I haven't thought that out but it could be that a certain hiccup can affect them more than other airlines, and vicey versy.

Apparently over 2000 flights were cancelled this weekend.

[kalm]

Anyone following the Southwest Airlines pilot walkout/sickouts?

MSM is claiming weather is causing the flight cancellations, that somehow aren't impacting other carriers.

My son is in the air right now on Southwest heading back to college from Fall Break. No problems.

But there are differences in airlines. Southwest has linear routes and not hubs. I haven't thought that out but it could be that a certain hiccup can affect them more than other airlines, and vicey versy.

Fall break?

JFC…no wonder we’re so soft.

In similar news, 140 WA State commuter ferry trips were cancelled Friday alone. That’s more than in a typical year.

[SeattleGriz]

My concerns go away when we have enough long term data to understand what side effects (and their likelihoods) come from this never before used mRNA vaccine.

Which is fine. Just stay away from others until we’re out of the woods.

Thanks!

And if your vaccine is 4-6 months old, then you stay away as well.

Thanks!

[kalm]

Which is fine. Just stay away from others until we’re out of the woods.

Thanks!

And if your vaccine is 4-6 months old, then you stay away as well.

Thanks!

I got both shots in the spring and the booster the first week of September.

So suck it!

[UNI88]

And if your vaccine is 4-6 months old, then you stay away as well.

Thanks!

I got both shots in the spring and the booster the first week of September.

So suck it!

I'm on SG's no-travel list (got my 2nd jab in early May so it's been 5+ months). Time to drive up to Seattle and give him a big hug!

[AZGrizFan]

Anyone following the Southwest Airlines pilot walkout/sickouts?

MSM is claiming weather is causing the flight cancellations, that somehow aren't impacting other carriers.

My son is in the air right now on Southwest heading back to college from Fall Break. No problems.

But there are differences in airlines. Southwest has linear routes and not hubs. I haven't thought that out but it could be that a certain hiccup can affect them more than other airlines, and vicey versy.

when SW gets a "hiccup", it fucks them up royally. And they do have at least one hub that I know of....Love field in Dallas.

[JohnStOnge]

The vaccines that can legally be used in the United States work. To continue to argue otherwise is ridiculous.

I'm sure it does. And the data shows certain age groups are at such a low risk of death that getting the vaxx is meaningless...especially since it doesn't stop transmission.

It doesn't totally stop transmission. But it dramatically reduces the risk of it. See https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... eople.html. See Table 2 and focus on the entries with "SARS-CoV-2 infection" in the outcome column. There is also this narrative:

However, data show fully vaccinated persons are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2, and infections with the Delta variant in fully vaccinated persons are associated with less severe clinical outcomes. Infections with the Delta variant in vaccinated persons potentially have reduced transmissibility than infections in unvaccinated persons, although additional studies are needed.

BTW the UK document SeattleGriz has been posting about says basically the same thing.

This is so ridiculous. We know what the situation is. But we have to keep dealing with this misinformation. Why is it so important for some people to believe things that are not true?

[JohnStOnge]

This is delusional thinking. You are a threat to the republic and shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Agreed, since Bernie, AOC and the rest of the squat have told us that is exactly what they want and are pushing policies that do exactly that.

That is a ridiculous statement. None of them have even remotely suggested they want totalitarian socialism.

[JohnStOnge]

My decision is based on data. Couldn't care less what anyone says regarding putting this into people under 18 years old, or what other people put in their kids.

I don't always agree with SD but I don't doubt that he's looked at the data and is making the decisions that he feels are best for him and his family. I respect that.

I sure as heck do.

[JohnStOnge]

The vaccines that can legally be used in the United States work. To continue to argue otherwise is ridiculous.

I'm sure it does. And the data shows certain age groups are at such a low risk of death that getting the vaxx is meaningless...especially since it doesn't stop transmission. The argument is against forced vaccinations for a new vaccine that we have no long term data on. I'm not against anyone who wants it getting it.

Again: The data suggest it significantly reduces transmission. What the heck, since SeattleGriz has been looking at the UK report at https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... eek_40.pdf.

With the delta variant, vaccine effectiveness against infection has been estimated at around 65% with Vaxzevria and 80% with
Comirnaty

Comirnaty is Pfizer.

As described above, several studies have provided evidence that vaccines are effective at
preventing infection. Uninfected individuals cannot transmit; therefore, the vaccines are also
effective at preventing transmission. There may be additional benefit, beyond that due to
prevention of infection, if some of those individuals who become infected despite vaccination
are also at a reduced risk of transmitting (for example, because of reduced duration or level of
viral shedding). A household transmission study in England found that household contacts of
cases vaccinated with a single dose had approximately 35 to 50% reduced risk of becoming a
confirmed case of COVID-19.

So just stop. You are not "looking at the data" if you are concluding that it doesn't impede transmission.

[JohnStOnge]

We're way off topic but I'll comment on that. I don't think anybody wants pure socialism any more than anybody wants pure capitalism. People say all the time that "socialism" has never worked. Yet we have the 800 pound Gorilla China debunking that. People will argue that China has capitalist elements. And it does. But it's a socialist/communist country. I would not want to live under China's system. But saying that it isn't a successful nation is pretty self evidently false. I don't think anyone who got into a time machine, traveled 50 years into the future, and saw that China had replaced the United States as the world's dominant nation would be surprised. It's not inevitable. But it wouldn't be a surprise. And right now it's clearly in second position.

I don't think there are any examples of successful purely capitalist nations either. The United States is not a purely capitalist nation. Government does exercise some control over the means of production. There is an awful lot of regulation of what industry does. It is not, as the definition of capitalism goes, a country where "...trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state." The State exercises plenty of control.

In addition to that, there is no indication that any Democrat wants totalitarian socialism where government owns all means of production. I think that what Democrats want when they say "socialism" is really "social democracy." They want something along the line of the Nordic Model, though I think they may believe in more corporate taxation. But they don't want a system where Mom and Pop can't start a grocery store or Aunt and Uncle can't start a hair salon as private businesses.

I think Democrats like Sanders and AOC do make a mistake in using the term "Socialist" when that's not even really what they are talking about. But the Democrats are not a threat to make us a Socialist nation. And they are not a threat to create a minority rule situation. The Republicans are such a threat. I also think they are a threat to turn us into a Fascist country. I don't think their rank and file generally realize that. But they just supported an effort by a would be banana-republic style strong man to stay in power when he clearly lost an election. And they continue to support it. That's very bad. Very dangerous.

This is delusional thinking. You are a threat to the republic and shouldn't be allowed to vote.

It's accurate thinking. You need to listen and stop the crap of acting like we are in a symmetrical situation right now where both major Parties are equally bad. That's not reality. We are in a crisis right now with respect to our system of government and there is a clear villain: The Republican Party that has been corrupted by Trump.

Look, I know it's Chique to do the "pox on both their houses" thing and act like they're both equally bad. But at this time in history it just isn't true.

[SeattleGriz]

I'm sure it does. And the data shows certain age groups are at such a low risk of death that getting the vaxx is meaningless...especially since it doesn't stop transmission. The argument is against forced vaccinations for a new vaccine that we have no long term data on. I'm not against anyone who wants it getting it.

Again: The data suggest it significantly reduces transmission. What the heck, since SeattleGriz has been looking at the UK report at https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... eek_40.pdf.

With the delta variant, vaccine effectiveness against infection has been estimated at around 65% with Vaxzevria and 80% with
Comirnaty

Comirnaty is Pfizer.

As described above, several studies have provided evidence that vaccines are effective at
preventing infection. Uninfected individuals cannot transmit; therefore, the vaccines are also
effective at preventing transmission. There may be additional benefit, beyond that due to
prevention of infection, if some of those individuals who become infected despite vaccination
are also at a reduced risk of transmitting (for example, because of reduced duration or level of
viral shedding). A household transmission study in England found that household contacts of
cases vaccinated with a single dose had approximately 35 to 50% reduced risk of becoming a
confirmed case of COVID-19.

So just stop. You are not "looking at the data" if you are concluding that it doesn't impede transmission.

So do you feel the impeding of transmission is enough to end the pandemic? You still think we can vaccinate our way out of this? If everyone just got the vax, it'd all be over?