Here We Go Again (Minneapolis, MN)

[Gil Dobie]

I'll have to agree to disagree. I see 3 different topics, maybe a 4th that involves news media bias.

I guess you probably like to read 9 different articles about a baseball game.

One on Baseball, one on basketball and one on football, and maybe hockey.

[UNI88]

I agree that the hot button is police but I disagree that it's much different. Fredericks wasn't killed by a gang member, a criminal, a hood rat... he was killed by people with authority at a licensed facility. IMO it's VERY much akin, but people don't give a shit about unjust deaths unless they occur at the hands of uniformed police or white supremacists.

Last week a black member of the Nation of Islam and Farrakhan follower rammed his car into a capitol police officer killing him. Two nights ago the news talked about the incident without showing a picture of him or mentioning anything personal about him. The VERY NEXT story was about the capitol riot and they showed at least five still photos of suspects, several videos, mentioned white supremacy and Trump all within 45 seconds.

I'll have to agree to disagree. I see 3 different topics, maybe a 4th that involves news media bias.

Are the topics related and worth discussing together?

[Gil Dobie]

I'll have to agree to disagree. I see 3 different topics, maybe a 4th that involves news media bias.

Are the topics related and worth discussing together?

I don't think they are.

[89Hen]

Are the topics related and worth discussing together?

I don't think they are.

Agreed. One is the death of a man at the hands of a police officer who restrained him for too long after the police were called because the man was passing fake currency and high on drugs, while the other is the death of a teen at the hands of caretakers at a family facility who restrained him for too long after he threw food in a cafeteria. Totally unrelated.

[UNI88]

Are the topics related and worth discussing together?

I don't think they are.

I do and I think 89's post highlights a double standard in when black lives matter and when they should be protested.

[GannonFan]

I don't think they are.

I do and I think 89's post highlights a double standard in when black lives matter and when they should be protested.

I don't understand the angst, though. It's hard to equally protest every single instance of black deaths at the hands of an authority figure, so why diminish one protest because folks are not protesting equally hard in another case? I'd rather they have nothing to protest and both of these individuals were still alive.

[89Hen]

I do and I think 89's post highlights a double standard in when black lives matter and when they should be protested.

I don't understand the angst, though. It's hard to equally protest every single instance of black deaths at the hands of an authority figure, so why diminish one protest because folks are not protesting equally hard in another case? I'd rather they have nothing to protest and both of these individuals were still alive.

Equally? Never said it had to be equal, but one is non-stop news, caused riots for weeks, have channels dedicating hours a day to it... the other... did you know the kid's name?

[GannonFan]

I don't understand the angst, though. It's hard to equally protest every single instance of black deaths at the hands of an authority figure, so why diminish one protest because folks are not protesting equally hard in another case? I'd rather they have nothing to protest and both of these individuals were still alive.

Equally? Never said it had to be equal, but one is non-stop news, caused riots for weeks, have channels dedicating hours a day to it... the other... did you know the kid's name?

Like I said, it's a weird hill to die on there. If it's not equal or even close to equal we shouldn't protest any of them? We had the video of Floyd, did we have the video of the kid?

[Gil Dobie]

I don't think they are.

I do and I think 89's post highlights a double standard in when black lives matter and when they should be protested.

Sounds like you guys are looking at double-standards in news media reporting and which deaths matter more, those are different topics. Floyd's death was a magnification of the bias way African American's are treated by our legal system. Minnesota Supreme court created a task force to research racial bias. It found that African American's were arrested more often, given higher bail, longer sentences, convicted more often, etc, etc, than white's that committed the same crime. It really doesn't involved when black lives matter more, which dismisses real issue, the imbalance in our legal system.

[UNI88]

I do and I think 89's post highlights a double standard in when black lives matter and when they should be protested.

Sounds like you guys are looking at double-standards in news media reporting and which deaths matter more, those are different topics. Floyd's death was a magnification of the bias way African American's are treated by our legal system. Minnesota Supreme court created a task force to research racial bias. It found that African American's were arrested more often, given higher bail, longer sentences, convicted more often, etc, etc, than white's that committed the same crime. It really doesn't involved when black lives matter more, which dismisses real issue, the imbalance in our legal system.

I think there's more to it than that. It also highlights a double standard by community leaders who used Floyd's death to rally people to a cause that while important shouldn't IMO be the most important if you really want to save black lives. The number and percentage of black people who are killed by police is too high but it's a drop in the ocean compared to the number of black people killed by other black people who aren't in law enforcement. Has the BLM focus on the negative interactions between black people and LEOs distracted people from a bigger problem?

[Gil Dobie]

Sounds like you guys are looking at double-standards in news media reporting and which deaths matter more, those are different topics. Floyd's death was a magnification of the bias way African American's are treated by our legal system. Minnesota Supreme court created a task force to research racial bias. It found that African American's were arrested more often, given higher bail, longer sentences, convicted more often, etc, etc, than white's that committed the same crime. It really doesn't involved when black lives matter more, which dismisses real issue, the imbalance in our legal system.

I think there's more to it than that. It also highlights a double standard by community leaders who used Floyd's death to rally people to a cause that while important shouldn't IMO be the most important if you really want to save black lives. The number and percentage of black people who are killed by police is too high but it's a drop in the ocean compared to the number of black people killed by other black people who aren't in law enforcement. Has the BLM focus on the negative interactions between black people and LEOs distracted people from a bigger problem?

Floyd deal is about racism and systemic injustices against the Black community. What generation of African Americans are going trust the police, to come into their neighborhood and stop the Black on Black crime, if they feel the police treat them with less respect than they do whites. When I was on a jury for a 2nd degree murder trial. Yes, Black on Black crime, nobody talks. One of the main witnesses flipped off the courtroom on his way out. The African American on the jury, told us, nobody talks in those neighborhoods, for fear of bodily harm. Maybe someday in the future, they will be able to trust the police and the legal system, but many don't right now. Maybe we need to train the police better, like Cleets says, pay them more to better applicants.

[SDHornet]

I think there's more to it than that. It also highlights a double standard by community leaders who used Floyd's death to rally people to a cause that while important shouldn't IMO be the most important if you really want to save black lives. The number and percentage of black people who are killed by police is too high but it's a drop in the ocean compared to the number of black people killed by other black people who aren't in law enforcement. Has the BLM focus on the negative interactions between black people and LEOs distracted people from a bigger problem?

Floyd deal is about racism and systemic injustices against the Black community. What generation of African Americans are going trust the police, to come into their neighborhood and stop the Black on Black crime, if they feel the police treat them with less respect than they do whites. When I was on a jury for a 2nd degree murder trial. Yes, Black on Black crime, nobody talks. One of the main witnesses flipped off the courtroom on his way out. The African American on the jury, told us, nobody talks in those neighborhoods, for fear of bodily harm. Maybe someday in the future, they will be able to trust the police and the legal system, but many don't right now. Maybe we need to train the police better, like Cleets says, pay them more to better applicants.

While I agree that there are injustices, the narratives around the Floyd case and the protests and riots generated from them have pretty much fallen apart (similarly to the "hands up don't shot" Ferguson stuff). So basically to 88's point, all that energy and effort spent focusing on a drug addicts altercation with a bad cop to combat said injustices pretty much will result in nothing that benefits the black community's plight.

blm should really do a better job picking its martyrs.

[89Hen]

Equally? Never said it had to be equal, but one is non-stop news, caused riots for weeks, have channels dedicating hours a day to it... the other... did you know the kid's name?

Like I said, it's a weird hill to die on there. If it's not equal or even close to equal we shouldn't protest any of them? We had the video of Floyd, did we have the video of the kid?

We do now and it's getting ZERO attention or traction. I'm not dying on this hill.... I'm not a SJW.

[UNI88]

Floyd deal is about racism and systemic injustices against the Black community. What generation of African Americans are going trust the police, to come into their neighborhood and stop the Black on Black crime, if they feel the police treat them with less respect than they do whites. When I was on a jury for a 2nd degree murder trial. Yes, Black on Black crime, nobody talks. One of the main witnesses flipped off the courtroom on his way out. The African American on the jury, told us, nobody talks in those neighborhoods, for fear of bodily harm. Maybe someday in the future, they will be able to trust the police and the legal system, but many don't right now. Maybe we need to train the police better, like Cleets says, pay them more to better applicants.

While I agree that there are injustices, the narratives around the Floyd case and the protests and riots generated from them have pretty much fallen apart (similarly to the "hands up don't shot" Ferguson stuff). So basically to 88's point, all that energy and effort spent focusing on a drug addicts altercation with a bad cop to combat said injustices pretty much will result in nothing that benefits the black community's plight.

blm should really do a better job picking its martyrs.

I've lived in a minority community (Austin neighborhood of Chicago - 4.20% White, 84.20% African American, 0.50% Asian, 0.80% from other races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 10.30% of the population and 11th out of 77 community areas in Chicago in violent crime, 25th among Chicago community areas in property crimes, and 5th out of 100 for quality of life crimes) and taught in a minority community. I understand the trust issues with law enforcement but rioting and looting is not helping to solve the problems. Police reform (not defunding) will help but by itself will not solve the problems.

Why are community and political leaders keeping the focus on a part of the problem rather than addressing the big picture?

[89Hen]

Floyd deal is about racism

Enough said. Everything is about racism, unless it's not about racism. Case in point, dems pushing for vaccination cards. Funny that voter ID is racist, but carrying a vaccination card isn't.

[89Hen]

88 and 89 killing it. And I finally found a topic where GF and I aren't in lock step.

[Gil Dobie]

While I agree that there are injustices, the narratives around the Floyd case and the protests and riots generated from them have pretty much fallen apart (similarly to the "hands up don't shot" Ferguson stuff). So basically to 88's point, all that energy and effort spent focusing on a drug addicts altercation with a bad cop to combat said injustices pretty much will result in nothing that benefits the black community's plight.

blm should really do a better job picking its martyrs.

I've lived in a minority community (Austin neighborhood of Chicago - 4.20% White, 84.20% African American, 0.50% Asian, 0.80% from other races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 10.30% of the population and 11th out of 77 community areas in Chicago in violent crime, 25th among Chicago community areas in property crimes, and 5th out of 100 for quality of life crimes) and taught in a minority community. I understand the trust issues with law enforcement but rioting and looting is not helping to solve the problems. Police reform (not defunding) will help but by itself will not solve the problems.

Why are community and political leaders keeping the focus on a part of the problem rather than addressing the big picture?

Rioting and looting was not done by protesters, it was done by criminals that took advantage of the protest. There were a lot of peaceful protest in the Twin Cities, but that didn't make the news.

[Gil Dobie]

Floyd deal is about racism

Enough said. Everything is about racism, unless it's not about racism. Case in point, dems pushing for vaccination cards. Funny that voter ID is racist, but carrying a vaccination card isn't.

You keep deflecting from the topic, just like your original post. None of what you are saying has anything to do with mistreatment of African Americans by the legal system.

[Gil Dobie]

88 and 89 killing it. And I finally found a topic where GF and I aren't in lock step.

You can say anything you want, heck Trump thinks the election was stolen and that he won.

[Gil Dobie]

Floyd deal is about racism and systemic injustices against the Black community. What generation of African Americans are going trust the police, to come into their neighborhood and stop the Black on Black crime, if they feel the police treat them with less respect than they do whites. When I was on a jury for a 2nd degree murder trial. Yes, Black on Black crime, nobody talks. One of the main witnesses flipped off the courtroom on his way out. The African American on the jury, told us, nobody talks in those neighborhoods, for fear of bodily harm. Maybe someday in the future, they will be able to trust the police and the legal system, but many don't right now. Maybe we need to train the police better, like Cleets says, pay them more to better applicants.

While I agree that there are injustices, the narratives around the Floyd case and the protests and riots generated from them have pretty much fallen apart (similarly to the "hands up don't shot" Ferguson stuff). So basically to 88's point, all that energy and effort spent focusing on a drug addicts altercation with a bad cop to combat said injustices pretty much will result in nothing that benefits the black community's plight.

blm should really do a better job picking its martyrs.

Not that another subject, addiction and how it's viewed. Is a person that used drugs considered less of a human because of that? I know many recovering addicts that are great people.

As I said to 88, the riots and looting were not part of the protest, they were people that took advantage of the protest. The governor even said, if you are out after 8pm during the curfew, you are not a protester, and they arrested over 600 people. Many are still going thru the court process.

[clenz]

If you were to watch the trial you would see that he had to spend about 5 minutes trying to ask that question different ways to get him to marginally agree with that statement. He didn't allow him to make his own decision on what was said, he was planting what was said to the persons head and asking over and over and over if it's possible that is what was said, if he could hear that it was potentially said, if someone could hear that while listening to the clip, etc.

We can also get into the details of how George Floyd, based on policies, should never have been placed in handcuffs when/how he was. He should never have been on the ground in the prone position. How he should never have had 3 officers kneel on him.

All 4 of those officers broke literally every policy they could break. The justification for that so far is "based on neighborhoods they are in" which ties into the claims of racial profiling and systemic differences for how different neighborhoods are treated. This was in a "black" neighborhood known for various criminal activities, so that is being attempted to be used as a justification for use of deadly force.

Remember this all started because he used a fake 20 dollar bill. He was killed over a fake 20 dollar bill. A crime that the chief of police said is something that they don't arrest for because it is not a violent offense. Yet the LEOs in that case drew their weapons and walked up to the car aiming them at the heads of people in the car fro the very start screaming for them to "GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE FUCKING CAR" and to "STOP FUCKING MOVING AND KEEP THE HANDS WHERE I CAN FUCKING SEE THEM".

Again, this is all over a fake 20 dollar bill.

What drugs he may have taken really has no impact. He wasn't going to die sitting in his vehicle as he was. He wasn't going to suffocate and go into cardiac arrest sitting in that car. If he did, then it's another drug user OD'ing on his own. Instead what happened what police showing up to an area that they aren't comfortable in, and using excessive force fro the very start, and causing someone to die in their custody by breaking every policy they could have.

You want to post the clip where the scene was considered code 4 when Chauvin arrived? The initial arresting officer called for back up but then before they arrived called over the radio the scene was code 4. Yet as soon as Chauvin arrived things instantly escalated.

Let's also say he did say "I ate too many drugs". Is that a crime punishable by death, on scene, at the hands of a patrol officer? Do patrol officers now get to adjudicate such things on the spot now and hand out death sentences and then execute the sentence because of it?

As for how this turned in to a race thing, it's pretty clear to see. Just look at the defense's own line of questioning to every witness. Over and over and over and over they are mentioning the specific neighborhood they were in simply being a reason to raise levels of force required. That neighborhood is a minority neighborhood. These types of incidents of extreme/overuse of force seem to happen more often in "those neighborhoods" than they would say in Eden Prairie or Edina or Maple Grove in the Minneapolis area.

[SDHornet]

While I agree that there are injustices, the narratives around the Floyd case and the protests and riots generated from them have pretty much fallen apart (similarly to the "hands up don't shot" Ferguson stuff). So basically to 88's point, all that energy and effort spent focusing on a drug addicts altercation with a bad cop to combat said injustices pretty much will result in nothing that benefits the black community's plight.

blm should really do a better job picking its martyrs.

Not that another subject, addiction and how it's viewed. Is a person that used drugs considered less of a human because of that? I know many recovering addicts that are great people.

As I said to 88, the riots and looting were not part of the protest, they were people that took advantage of the protest. The governor even said, if you are out after 8pm during the curfew, you are not a protester, and they arrested over 600 people. Many are still going thru the court process.

It was the vitriol surrounding the false narratives that played into the riots. And yes, I agree there were people there legitimately exercising their right to peacefully protest which was mired with others who took advantage of the situation by rioting and looting.

No, drug users aren't less humans, but it's looking like an OD on fentanyl is what killed Floyd so his vice was likely the leading reason for his death. So this will likely get filed under the "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" in my book.

[SDHornet]

If you were to watch the trial you would see that he had to spend about 5 minutes trying to ask that question different ways to get him to marginally agree with that statement. He didn't allow him to make his own decision on what was said, he was planting what was said to the persons head and asking over and over and over if it's possible that is what was said, if he could hear that it was potentially said, if someone could hear that while listening to the clip, etc.

We can also get into the details of how George Floyd, based on policies, should never have been placed in handcuffs when/how he was. He should never have been on the ground in the prone position. How he should never have had 3 officers kneel on him.

All 4 of those officers broke literally every policy they could break. The justification for that so far is "based on neighborhoods they are in" which ties into the claims of racial profiling and systemic differences for how different neighborhoods are treated. This was in a "black" neighborhood known for various criminal activities, so that is being attempted to be used as a justification for use of deadly force.

Remember this all started because he used a fake 20 dollar bill. He was killed over a fake 20 dollar bill. A crime that the chief of police said is something that they don't arrest for because it is not a violent offense. Yet the LEOs in that case drew their weapons and walked up to the car aiming them at the heads of people in the car fro the very start screaming for them to "GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE FUCKING CAR" and to "STOP FUCKING MOVING AND KEEP THE HANDS WHERE I CAN FUCKING SEE THEM".

Again, this is all over a fake 20 dollar bill.

What drugs he may have taken really has no impact. He wasn't going to die sitting in his vehicle as he was. He wasn't going to suffocate and go into cardiac arrest sitting in that car. If he did, then it's another drug user OD'ing on his own. Instead what happened what police showing up to an area that they aren't comfortable in, and using excessive force fro the very start, and causing someone to die in their custody by breaking every policy they could have.

You want to post the clip where the scene was considered code 4 when Chauvin arrived? The initial arresting officer called for back up but then before they arrived called over the radio the scene was code 4. Yet as soon as Chauvin arrived things instantly escalated.

Let's also say he did say "I ate too many drugs". Is that a crime punishable by death, on scene, at the hands of a patrol officer? Do patrol officers now get to adjudicate such things on the spot now and hand out death sentences and then execute the sentence because of it?

As for how this turned in to a race thing, it's pretty clear to see. Just look at the defense's own line of questioning to every witness. Over and over and over and over they are mentioning the specific neighborhood they were in simply being a reason to raise levels of force required. That neighborhood is a minority neighborhood. These types of incidents of extreme/overuse of force seem to happen more often in "those neighborhoods" than they would say in Eden Prairie or Edina or Maple Grove in the Minneapolis area.

So Floyd being high on fentanyl had nothing to do with this interaction?

[UNI88]

While I agree that there are injustices, the narratives around the Floyd case and the protests and riots generated from them have pretty much fallen apart (similarly to the "hands up don't shot" Ferguson stuff). So basically to 88's point, all that energy and effort spent focusing on a drug addicts altercation with a bad cop to combat said injustices pretty much will result in nothing that benefits the black community's plight.

blm should really do a better job picking its martyrs.

Not that another subject, addiction and how it's viewed. Is a person that used drugs considered less of a human because of that? I know many recovering addicts that are great people.

As I said to 88, the riots and looting were not part of the protest, they were people that took advantage of the protest. The governor even said, if you are out after 8pm during the curfew, you are not a protester, and they arrested over 600 people. Many are still going thru the court process.

Floyd's death lead to protests in a lot of cities and rioting and looting a number of those cities. You can try and BDkkk things to limit the scope but this is about more than just what happened in Minneapolis.

If you want to be a cynic, the protests led to the riots and looting. If you want to be more forgiving but still rational, the protests provided cover for the riots and looting. I don't know what the ctrl-left version of a MAGAt is but that is what you are if you want to say that the riots and looting were justified.

I take issue with the ctrl-left leaders that use Floyd's and other tragic deaths and murders as tinder to start fires of discontent against law enforcement without even acknowledging other issues that take far more black lives. How are they different than Trump and the alt-right leaders who stir people up?

Liberals want to give them a pass because their cause is just while conservatives want to give the MAGAts a pass because their cause is just. The ends do not justify the means and they should all be prosecuted.

[Gil Dobie]

Not that another subject, addiction and how it's viewed. Is a person that used drugs considered less of a human because of that? I know many recovering addicts that are great people.

As I said to 88, the riots and looting were not part of the protest, they were people that took advantage of the protest. The governor even said, if you are out after 8pm during the curfew, you are not a protester, and they arrested over 600 people. Many are still going thru the court process.

It was the vitriol surrounding the false narratives that played into the riots. And yes, I agree there were people there legitimately exercising their right to peacefully protest which was mired with others who took advantage of the situation by rioting and looting.

No, drug users aren't less humans, but it's looking like an OD on fentanyl is what killed Floyd so his vice was likely the leading reason for his death. So this will likely get filed under the "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" in my book.

I heard there was fentanyl in his system, but that was not the cause of death according to the ME and the additional autopsy.