Coronavirus COVID-19

[kalm]

Similar effects to partial lockdowns or lack of social distancing compliance, namely a slower return to normal.

https://www.imf.org/-/media/Files/Publi ... h/ch2.ashx

I would argue that the initial restrictions were viewed as “necessary” to some extent. It was the continually changing narrative, constantly moving goalposts, and disingenuous nature of our political leaders that caused all follow on recommendations/requirements to be looked at with a jaundiced eye. We’re in our 12th month of “2-weeks to flatten the curve”.... Montana has 68 TOTAL cases of COVID, yet Missoula county remains in lockdown. California only began opening up when Newsom realized the recall effort was going to succeed (and Biden had become president).

Much like the bad optics of how the election played out, when a majority of people believe that the recommendations/requirements are purely political in nature, they tend to say fuck it. Unfortunately, there are enough commies out there that will narc on their neighbors, bray at them in the stores if they don’t wear their masks like good commies, or are afraid of their own shadows that we may NEVER see “normal” again.

Your first paragraph is fair. But you have to admit the lack of national leadership on the subject as well. From Trump to using stimulus as a political negotiating piece. It was always going to be hard for the US with our irrational fear of ALL things government and rugged “individualism”.

The 2nd paragraph is blah, blah, blah, commievirus doesn’t scare me, blah, blah, blah Fauci!!!, blah, blah, blah who’s fact checking the scientists???, blah, blah, blah, these colors don’t run remember 9/11 when 3,000 Americans lost their lives!!! but freedom!!!blah, blah, blah.

[UNI88]

I would argue that the initial restrictions were viewed as “necessary” to some extent. It was the continually changing narrative, constantly moving goalposts, and disingenuous nature of our political leaders that caused all follow on recommendations/requirements to be looked at with a jaundiced eye. We’re in our 12th month of “2-weeks to flatten the curve”.... Montana has 68 TOTAL cases of COVID, yet Missoula county remains in lockdown. California only began opening up when Newsom realized the recall effort was going to succeed (and Biden had become president).

Much like the bad optics of how the election played out, when a majority of people believe that the recommendations/requirements are purely political in nature, they tend to say fuck it. Unfortunately, there are enough commies out there that will narc on their neighbors, bray at them in the stores if they don’t wear their masks like good commies, or are afraid of their own shadows that we may NEVER see “normal” again.

Your first paragraph is fair. But you have to admit the lack of national leadership on the subject as well. From Trump to using stimulus as a political negotiating piece. It was always going to be hard for the US with our irrational fear of ALL things government and rugged “individualism”.

The 2nd paragraph is blah, blah, blah, commievirus doesn’t scare me, blah, blah, blah Fauci!!!, blah, blah, blah who’s fact checking the scientists???, blah, blah, blah, these colors don’t run remember 9/11 when 3,000 Americans lost their lives!!! but freedom!!!blah, blah, blah.

I think there are commies that narc on and bray at their neighbors just like there are fascists who slap flight attendants for asking them to wear their mask on a plane.

[AZGrizFan]

I would argue that the initial restrictions were viewed as “necessary” to some extent. It was the continually changing narrative, constantly moving goalposts, and disingenuous nature of our political leaders that caused all follow on recommendations/requirements to be looked at with a jaundiced eye. We’re in our 12th month of “2-weeks to flatten the curve”.... Montana has 68 TOTAL cases of COVID, yet Missoula county remains in lockdown. California only began opening up when Newsom realized the recall effort was going to succeed (and Biden had become president).

Much like the bad optics of how the election played out, when a majority of people believe that the recommendations/requirements are purely political in nature, they tend to say fuck it. Unfortunately, there are enough commies out there that will narc on their neighbors, bray at them in the stores if they don’t wear their masks like good commies, or are afraid of their own shadows that we may NEVER see “normal” again.

Your first paragraph is fair. But you have to admit the lack of national leadership on the subject as well. From Trump to using stimulus as a political negotiating piece. It was always going to be hard for the US with our irrational fear of ALL things government and rugged “individualism”.

The 2nd paragraph is blah, blah, blah, commievirus doesn’t scare me, blah, blah, blah Fauci!!!, blah, blah, blah who’s fact checking the scientists???, blah, blah, blah, these colors don’t run remember 9/11 when 3,000 Americans lost their lives!!! but freedom!!!blah, blah, blah.

I’m not absolving ANY politician from the first paragraph.

Our fear of the government isn’t irrational. The last year should have proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

The 1st paragraph begat the 2nd....sorry that it’s more blah blah to you. Gov’t likes sheep.

[SeattleGriz]

I would argue that the initial restrictions were viewed as “necessary” to some extent. It was the continually changing narrative, constantly moving goalposts, and disingenuous nature of our political leaders that caused all follow on recommendations/requirements to be looked at with a jaundiced eye. We’re in our 12th month of “2-weeks to flatten the curve”.... Montana has 68 TOTAL cases of COVID, yet Missoula county remains in lockdown. California only began opening up when Newsom realized the recall effort was going to succeed (and Biden had become president).

Much like the bad optics of how the election played out, when a majority of people believe that the recommendations/requirements are purely political in nature, they tend to say fuck it. Unfortunately, there are enough commies out there that will narc on their neighbors, bray at them in the stores if they don’t wear their masks like good commies, or are afraid of their own shadows that we may NEVER see “normal” again.

Your first paragraph is fair. But you have to admit the lack of national leadership on the subject as well. From Trump to using stimulus as a political negotiating piece. It was always going to be hard for the US with our irrational fear of ALL things government and rugged “individualism”.

The 2nd paragraph is blah, blah, blah, commievirus doesn’t scare me, blah, blah, blah Fauci!!!, blah, blah, blah who’s fact checking the scientists???, blah, blah, blah, these colors don’t run remember 9/11 when 3,000 Americans lost their lives!!! but freedom!!!blah, blah, blah.

In regards to your statement about a lack of national leadership, what would you have liked to seen?

Personally, I was fine with national leadership leaving it up to each state, but realize not everyone feels that way.

[SDHornet]

Your first paragraph is fair. But you have to admit the lack of national leadership on the subject as well. From Trump to using stimulus as a political negotiating piece. It was always going to be hard for the US with our irrational fear of ALL things government and rugged “individualism”.

The 2nd paragraph is blah, blah, blah, commievirus doesn’t scare me, blah, blah, blah Fauci!!!, blah, blah, blah who’s fact checking the scientists???, blah, blah, blah, these colors don’t run remember 9/11 when 3,000 Americans lost their lives!!! but freedom!!!blah, blah, blah.

In regards to your statement about a lack of national leadership, what would you have liked to seen?

Personally, I was fine with national leadership leaving it up to each state, but realize not everyone feels that way.

Yup. Also agree with AZ. I was fine with the cautious approach as we didn't know what it was or who was at risk. By May/June we knew who was at risk and the precautions should have been aimed towards protecting those folks. Instead of a scalpel, the gubmint took a shotgun approach. Fuck that.

Oh and TX is opening up 100%. I expect most red states to follow suit.

[GannonFan]

In regards to your statement about a lack of national leadership, what would you have liked to seen?

Personally, I was fine with national leadership leaving it up to each state, but realize not everyone feels that way.

Yup. Also agree with AZ. I was fine with the cautious approach as we didn't know what it was or who was at risk. By May/June we knew who was at risk and the precautions should have been aimed towards protecting those folks. Instead of a scalpel, the gubmint took a shotgun approach. Fuck that.

Oh and TX is opening up 100%. I expect most red states to follow suit.

Forget May/June, we knew by April of 2020 what was needed to protect against the virus - wear masks, socially distance, and wash hands frequently. We should've been abundantly clear on that and that if people followed those mantras we really could go ahead and do the vast majority of things we were doing before the virus. But we didn't - we said Walmarts could be open but stores right down the street that sell some of the things Walmart does couldn't open their doors. And it wasn't a matter of a couple weeks while trying to sort this out, this went on for months. I remember in PA, hair dressers and barbers weren't allowed to open until almost July, and when they did finally open they opened with the same restrictions (wearing masks, staying socially distant - i.e. fewer people in the establishment at one time), and washing hands frequently. So we knew that in early April but we made them stay out of work for another 3 months "just because". People don't like "just because" reasons.

And it didn't help at all that, at least on a federal level, we had a destructive tit-for-tat type of governing going on, where anything Trump would do or so would be reflexively opposed by the Dems - when Trump was crazy and deranged that was effective, but when he'd occasionally get something right that wasn't effective. Our politics, on both sides of the aisle, were certainly detrimental to our handling of the pandemic.

[SeattleGriz]

Yup. Also agree with AZ. I was fine with the cautious approach as we didn't know what it was or who was at risk. By May/June we knew who was at risk and the precautions should have been aimed towards protecting those folks. Instead of a scalpel, the gubmint took a shotgun approach. Fuck that.

Oh and TX is opening up 100%. I expect most red states to follow suit.

Forget May/June, we knew by April of 2020 what was needed to protect against the virus - wear masks, socially distance, and wash hands frequently. We should've been abundantly clear on that and that if people followed those mantras we really could go ahead and do the vast majority of things we were doing before the virus. But we didn't - we said Walmarts could be open but stores right down the street that sell some of the things Walmart does couldn't open their doors. And it wasn't a matter of a couple weeks while trying to sort this out, this went on for months. I remember in PA, hair dressers and barbers weren't allowed to open until almost July, and when they did finally open they opened with the same restrictions (wearing masks, staying socially distant - i.e. fewer people in the establishment at one time), and washing hands frequently. So we knew that in early April but we made them stay out of work for another 3 months "just because". People don't like "just because" reasons.

And it didn't help at all that, at least on a federal level, we had a destructive tit-for-tat type of governing going on, where anything Trump would do or so would be reflexively opposed by the Dems - when Trump was crazy and deranged that was effective, but when he'd occasionally get something right that wasn't effective. Our politics, on both sides of the aisle, were certainly detrimental to our handling of the pandemic.

I would argue that we knew well before April. I keep referring back to our hundreds of years of experience in dealing with pandemics, in which all that knowledge was ignored. Your statement of tit for tatting is spot on.

In addition, you know see plenty of stories from the pharmaceutical companies in which they had been "prepping" for Coronavirus for years and that is why they were so quick to the market.

[kalm]

Your first paragraph is fair. But you have to admit the lack of national leadership on the subject as well. From Trump to using stimulus as a political negotiating piece. It was always going to be hard for the US with our irrational fear of ALL things government and rugged “individualism”.

The 2nd paragraph is blah, blah, blah, commievirus doesn’t scare me, blah, blah, blah Fauci!!!, blah, blah, blah who’s fact checking the scientists???, blah, blah, blah, these colors don’t run remember 9/11 when 3,000 Americans lost their lives!!! but freedom!!!blah, blah, blah.

I’m not absolving ANY politician from the first paragraph.

Our fear of the government isn’t irrational. The last year should have proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

The 1st paragraph begat the 2nd....sorry that it’s more blah blah to you. Gov’t likes sheep.

Our fear of government is often irrational...looking at the last year especially.

We are at 500,000 dead partly because of it. Fear of the CDC, fear of Fauci, fear of vaccines, fear of someone telling us to be a little more community minded and sacrificing the holidays to save lives. No one tells me what to do! Because...freedom!

That’s not to say fear of government over-reach is unwarranted but it’s a trade off.

For those who fear big government the most, the best reaction would have been to heed the warnings and voluntarily take the precautions. We collectively decided that rugged independence in the face of minor inconveniences like skipping graduation parties and the annual Thanksgiving poker game were more valuable than 100’s of thousands of lives and less lockdowns.

[kalm]

Yup. Also agree with AZ. I was fine with the cautious approach as we didn't know what it was or who was at risk. By May/June we knew who was at risk and the precautions should have been aimed towards protecting those folks. Instead of a scalpel, the gubmint took a shotgun approach. Fuck that.

Oh and TX is opening up 100%. I expect most red states to follow suit.

Forget May/June, we knew by April of 2020 what was needed to protect against the virus - wear masks, socially distance, and wash hands frequently. We should've been abundantly clear on that and that if people followed those mantras we really could go ahead and do the vast majority of things we were doing before the virus. But we didn't - we said Walmarts could be open but stores right down the street that sell some of the things Walmart does couldn't open their doors. And it wasn't a matter of a couple weeks while trying to sort this out, this went on for months. I remember in PA, hair dressers and barbers weren't allowed to open until almost July, and when they did finally open they opened with the same restrictions (wearing masks, staying socially distant - i.e. fewer people in the establishment at one time), and washing hands frequently. So we knew that in early April but we made them stay out of work for another 3 months "just because". People don't like "just because" reasons.

And it didn't help at all that, at least on a federal level, we had a destructive tit-for-tat type of governing going on, where anything Trump would do or so would be reflexively opposed by the Dems - when Trump was crazy and deranged that was effective, but when he'd occasionally get something right that wasn't effective. Our politics, on both sides of the aisle, were certainly detrimental to our handling of the pandemic.

Some of this is fair and there are certainly many examples of inconsistencies and hypocrisy in restrictions. Part of that is bad leadership but part of it is the shear number and variety of the businesses that inhabit our public square.

And while we had a pretty good idea early on with the basics of mitigating the disease too many seemed to forget that as the curve flattened for some areas in the summer. We collectively forgot about the warnings of a late fall surge.

[kalm]

Your first paragraph is fair. But you have to admit the lack of national leadership on the subject as well. From Trump to using stimulus as a political negotiating piece. It was always going to be hard for the US with our irrational fear of ALL things government and rugged “individualism”.

The 2nd paragraph is blah, blah, blah, commievirus doesn’t scare me, blah, blah, blah Fauci!!!, blah, blah, blah who’s fact checking the scientists???, blah, blah, blah, these colors don’t run remember 9/11 when 3,000 Americans lost their lives!!! but freedom!!!blah, blah, blah.

In regards to your statement about a lack of national leadership, what would you have liked to seen?

Personally, I was fine with national leadership leaving it up to each state, but realize not everyone feels that way.

There have been numerous articles on it, not to mention real identity examples of national strategy elsewhere.

A few that come to mind:

A convening of governors lead by Trump and the CDC to coordinate more between states and obtain support from the feds where needed.

Warp speed on reliable and available testing.

Actually purchasing and distributing enough vaccine.

Not downplaying the fucking threat.

[AZGrizFan]

I’m not absolving ANY politician from the first paragraph.

Our fear of the government isn’t irrational. The last year should have proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

The 1st paragraph begat the 2nd....sorry that it’s more blah blah to you. Gov’t likes sheep.

Our fear of government is often irrational...looking at the last year especially.

We are at 500,000 dead partly because of it. Fear of the CDC, fear of Fauci, fear of vaccines, fear of someone telling us to be a little more community minded and sacrificing the holidays to save lives. No one tells me what to do! Because...freedom!

That’s not to say fear of government over-reach is unwarranted but it’s a trade off.

For those who fear big government the most, the best reaction would have been to heed the warnings and voluntarily take the precautions. We collectively decided that rugged independence in the face of minor inconveniences like skipping graduation parties and the annual Thanksgiving poker game were more valuable than 100’s of thousands of lives and less lockdowns.

Two things:
A) Individualism and independence are two of the foundations upon which this country was built. But, whenever YOU use the words individualism or independence, you always put the word “rugged” in front of it, like it’s bad, like “toxic” masculinity. Is there any other kind of individualism or independence to you that isn’t toxic?

B) if you feel our fear of government is irrational after the last year, there’s no helping you. We didn’t “fear” the CDC, Fauci or vaccines before COVID. It was government’s RESPONSE (and CDC’s and Fauci’s, and WHO’s, etc) that made us fear them. If our government (and associated peripheral agencies) had closed ranks with a coordinated response, quickly, 95% of Americans would have fallen in line. But, between their continuous waffling and ignoring of hundreds of years of pandemic research (as pointed out by SG), combined with the tit-for-tat approach where “Orange Man Bad” colored literally EVERY decision coming out of a “red state” or a “blue state”, we were pretty much fucked from the beginning. THAT’S why people decided that “thanksgiving poker parties were more valuable than hundreds of thousands of lives”...the government proved VERY early in this “pandemic” that they were NOT interested in saving lives, only interested in control and power and making the other side look bad. When the government doesn’t appear to care, when the rules are applied so unevenly the government is blatantly, openly picking the pandemic winners and the pandemic losers, yea, “rugged Independence” is gonna fire the fuck up and people are gonna tell your benevolent government to kindly fuck off and try and survive...and LIVE.

It’s sad when someone hates independence and individualism so much, comrade.

[AZGrizFan]

In regards to your statement about a lack of national leadership, what would you have liked to seen?

Personally, I was fine with national leadership leaving it up to each state, but realize not everyone feels that way.

There have been numerous articles on it, not to mention real identity examples of national strategy elsewhere.

A few that come to mind:

A convening of governors lead by Trump and the CDC to coordinate more between states and obtain support from the feds where needed.

Warp speed on reliable and available testing.

Actually purchasing and distributing enough vaccine.

Not downplaying the fucking threat.

Right. And literally EVERY SINGLE ONE of those things was happening on both sides of the aisle. If Trump had attempted to convene governors, do you honestly think Cali and NY and NJ and MI and the rest of their ilk would have shown up? Come on....you’re not THAT dense.

[GannonFan]

In regards to your statement about a lack of national leadership, what would you have liked to seen?

Personally, I was fine with national leadership leaving it up to each state, but realize not everyone feels that way.

There have been numerous articles on it, not to mention real identity examples of national strategy elsewhere.

A few that come to mind:

A convening of governors lead by Trump and the CDC to coordinate more between states and obtain support from the feds where needed.

Warp speed on reliable and available testing.

Actually purchasing and distributing enough vaccine.

Not downplaying the fucking threat.

I'd like to think a convening of governors could've happened or would've been useful, but seeing the competing political motivations (and Trump's deranged histrionics and Cuomo's purposeful hiding of nursing home deaths while collecting an Emmy and writing a book are just the two most obvious examples, but way too many governors on both sides looked to politics to dictate their decisions) I highly doubt that would've been useful.

The testing didn't need warp speed - the WSJ did a good writeup on the screwup by the CDC at the start of the pandemic to pursue their own, USA made testing rather than just use the one that South Korea had developed and was already using. The one we ended up making was a month delayed due to the design and that was a crucial month as it allowed the virus to expand way past the test and trace level to a point where the testing couldn't corral it anymore. And at that point, if it was a question of devoting resources for a vaccine versus testing, I think leaning towards the vaccine was the better call.

As for the vaccine, I don't think purchasing has really been a problem - we're buying basically everything they're making, there are just real limits and capacities on how fast things can get made. But it seems like the US is getting the lionshare of the major vaccines out there. Heck, we're already being blamed for the rest of the world not getting really any vaccines. Equity-shaming and all. With the J&J vaccine, we're now set to have enough to cover all US adults by the end of May - considering vaccines weren't even available until mid to late December, I'd say there hasn't been a problem with vaccine purchasing.

I agree with the distribution, but again, that gets back to the 50 governors in a room and getting 50 different outcomes. With all that said, distribution hasn't been horrible, it's been more hampered by just not having enough. Everyone wants the vaccine right now, so when that doesn't happen people get pissed. But given the J&J game changer, if we don't have most people vaccinated by end of April then I'd say we're really screwing up the distribution. To date I think it's mainly just been scarcity.

As for downplaying the threat, absolutely, those that downplayed it, and continued to downplay it, really screwed up. And I'd argue that those that held on to restrictions and lockdowns longer than necessary and didn't allow folks to go about implementing the common sense things need to operate in a pandemic screwed up as well in that they took the focus off of the things needed to get done.

[Gil Dobie]

There have been numerous articles on it, not to mention real identity examples of national strategy elsewhere.

A few that come to mind:

A convening of governors lead by Trump and the CDC to coordinate more between states and obtain support from the feds where needed.

Warp speed on reliable and available testing.

Actually purchasing and distributing enough vaccine.

Not downplaying the fucking threat.

Right. And literally EVERY SINGLE ONE of those things was happening on both sides of the aisle. If Trump had attempted to convene governors, do you honestly think Cali and NY and NJ and MI and the rest of their ilk would have shown up? Come on....you’re not THAT dense.

Thing is, Covid is not political, it's medical. Both sides of the isle made it a political cluster, so normally common sense folks on both sides drew lines that didn't exist. Wearing a mask, distancing and washing are not liberal things and not against person liberties, specifically to ask someone to wear a mask in a store. I've seen many signs on store fronts, no shirt, no shoes, no service. These were suggested protocol by medical experts, to reduce your chances of getting sick. I won't walk past a person that isn't wearing a mask, or has their nose sticking out. Hopefully the vaccine will be here in a couple months, and this can simmer down.

[UNI88]

Right. And literally EVERY SINGLE ONE of those things was happening on both sides of the aisle. If Trump had attempted to convene governors, do you honestly think Cali and NY and NJ and MI and the rest of their ilk would have shown up? Come on....you’re not THAT dense.

Thing is, Covid is not political, it's medical. Both sides of the isle made it a political cluster, so normally common sense folks on both sides drew lines that didn't exist. Wearing a mask, distancing and washing are not liberal things and not against person liberties, specifically to ask someone to wear a mask in a store. I've seen many signs on store fronts, no shirt, no shoes, no service. These were suggested protocol by medical experts, to reduce your chances of getting sick. I won't walk past a person that isn't wearing a mask, or has their nose sticking out. Hopefully the vaccine will be here in a couple months, and this can simmer down.

Covid is more than medical - there were and are psychological, economic and communication/marketing aspects that should have been considered and were and continue to be overlooked by many medical experts.

[Gil Dobie]

Thing is, Covid is not political, it's medical. Both sides of the isle made it a political cluster, so normally common sense folks on both sides drew lines that didn't exist. Wearing a mask, distancing and washing are not liberal things and not against person liberties, specifically to ask someone to wear a mask in a store. I've seen many signs on store fronts, no shirt, no shoes, no service. These were suggested protocol by medical experts, to reduce your chances of getting sick. I won't walk past a person that isn't wearing a mask, or has their nose sticking out. Hopefully the vaccine will be here in a couple months, and this can simmer down.

Covid is more than medical - there were and are psychological, economic and communication/marketing aspects that should have been considered and were and continue to be overlooked by many medical experts.

Covid is medical, had we followed the medical advise, we wouldn't have the psychological and economic issues that followed. By not following the protocol, Covid spread, and the government got involved, leading to the psychological and economic issues. Several segments of the economy are booming right now, and at least where I am, there is not much that is on lockdown, just the slow release of the vaccine.

[kalm]

There have been numerous articles on it, not to mention real identity examples of national strategy elsewhere.

A few that come to mind:

A convening of governors lead by Trump and the CDC to coordinate more between states and obtain support from the feds where needed.

Warp speed on reliable and available testing.

Actually purchasing and distributing enough vaccine.

Not downplaying the fucking threat.

Right. And literally EVERY SINGLE ONE of those things was happening on both sides of the aisle. If Trump had attempted to convene governors, do you honestly think Cali and NY and NJ and MI and the rest of their ilk would have shown up? Come on....you’re not THAT dense.

Even an attempt at it would have politically helped Trump not to mention assisted with fighting the pandemic for those who would have shown. Those who didn’t show would have been seen as the bad guys. There was little downside for Trump at least making the attempt.

[AZGrizFan]

Right. And literally EVERY SINGLE ONE of those things was happening on both sides of the aisle. If Trump had attempted to convene governors, do you honestly think Cali and NY and NJ and MI and the rest of their ilk would have shown up? Come on....you’re not THAT dense.

Even an attempt at it would have politically helped Trump not to mention assisted with fighting the pandemic for those who would have shown. Those who didn’t show would have been seen as the bad guys. There was little downside for Trump at least making the attempt.

Completely disagree. EVERYTHING he tried (or didn’t try) the donks took the opposing position on, for better or worse. The only governors that would have shown up were red states, they would have decided to remain open and try to save peoples’ livelihoods, and they’d have been flamesprayed for it, just like they have been for 12 months. They didn’t need a “meeting” to decide that.

[UNI88]

Covid is more than medical - there were and are psychological, economic and communication/marketing aspects that should have been considered and were and continue to be overlooked by many medical experts.

Covid is medical, had we followed the medical advise, we wouldn't have the psychological and economic issues that followed. By not following the protocol, Covid spread, and the government got involved, leading to the psychological and economic issues. Several segments of the economy are booming right now, and at least where I am, there is not much that is on lockdown, just the slow release of the vaccine.

Politics played a part in people not following protocol but so did psychology and communications/marketing. The doctors arrogantly thought they could tell people what to do and people would just do it. They should have considered how to frame and communicate the message as well how to explain the changes in the recommendations.

Protocols were first put in place in March and adjusted but are still in place in varying formats. Do you really think that if people had followed the protocols this would have been under control in a matter of weeks? Because that is the only way we would have avoided the psychological and economic impacts. And a good psychologist/sociologist could have told the doctors that some people weren't going to follow the protocols and the doctors could have planned and communicated accordingly. Doctors aren't gods and people aren't going to bow before them and do exactly what they say. To expect people to do so is arrogant and demonstrates a lack of understanding of human nature.

[kalm]

There have been numerous articles on it, not to mention real identity examples of national strategy elsewhere.

A few that come to mind:

A convening of governors lead by Trump and the CDC to coordinate more between states and obtain support from the feds where needed.

Warp speed on reliable and available testing.

Actually purchasing and distributing enough vaccine.

Not downplaying the fucking threat.

I'd like to think a convening of governors could've happened or would've been useful, but seeing the competing political motivations (and Trump's deranged histrionics and Cuomo's purposeful hiding of nursing home deaths while collecting an Emmy and writing a book are just the two most obvious examples, but way too many governors on both sides looked to politics to dictate their decisions) I highly doubt that would've been useful.

The testing didn't need warp speed - the WSJ did a good writeup on the screwup by the CDC at the start of the pandemic to pursue their own, USA made testing rather than just use the one that South Korea had developed and was already using. The one we ended up making was a month delayed due to the design and that was a crucial month as it allowed the virus to expand way past the test and trace level to a point where the testing couldn't corral it anymore. And at that point, if it was a question of devoting resources for a vaccine versus testing, I think leaning towards the vaccine was the better call.

As for the vaccine, I don't think purchasing has really been a problem - we're buying basically everything they're making, there are just real limits and capacities on how fast things can get made. But it seems like the US is getting the lionshare of the major vaccines out there. Heck, we're already being blamed for the rest of the world not getting really any vaccines. Equity-shaming and all. With the J&J vaccine, we're now set to have enough to cover all US adults by the end of May - considering vaccines weren't even available until mid to late December, I'd say there hasn't been a problem with vaccine purchasing.

I agree with the distribution, but again, that gets back to the 50 governors in a room and getting 50 different outcomes. With all that said, distribution hasn't been horrible, it's been more hampered by just not having enough. Everyone wants the vaccine right now, so when that doesn't happen people get pissed. But given the J&J game changer, if we don't have most people vaccinated by end of April then I'd say we're really screwing up the distribution. To date I think it's mainly just been scarcity.

As for downplaying the threat, absolutely, those that downplayed it, and continued to downplay it, really screwed up. And I'd argue that those that held on to restrictions and lockdowns longer than necessary and didn't allow folks to go about implementing the common sense things need to operate in a pandemic screwed up as well in that they took the focus off of the things needed to get done.

Testing: could have done both.

Purchasing: Trump turned down a chance to buy enough Pfizer and bio n tech to get us through the summer.

Distribution: Find me one reasonable source who thinks it was handled as best as it could be.

If the governors are to be held responsible (and they should) there’s no need to defend Trump here. He sucked at his job. Period.

Downplaying: I’m guessing the end results will show there was less positives to opening up early than making sure we are we are out of the woods. 5 years from now, states of countries that were more restrictive will have few regrets.

[AZGrizFan]

Covid is medical, had we followed the medical advise, we wouldn't have the psychological and economic issues that followed. By not following the protocol, Covid spread, and the government got involved, leading to the psychological and economic issues. Several segments of the economy are booming right now, and at least where I am, there is not much that is on lockdown, just the slow release of the vaccine.

Politics played a part in people not following protocol but so did psychology and communications/marketing. The doctors arrogantly thought they could tell people what to do and people would just do it. They should have considered how to frame and communicate the message as well how to explain the changes in the recommendations.

Protocols were first put in place in March and adjusted but are still in place in varying formats. Do you really think that if people had followed the protocols this would have been under control in a matter of weeks? Because that is the only way we would have avoided the psychological and economic impacts. And a good psychologist/sociologist could have told the doctors that some people weren't going to follow the protocols and the doctors could have planned and communicated accordingly. Doctors aren't gods and people aren't going to bow before them and do exactly what they say. To expect people to do so is arrogant and demonstrates a lack of understanding of human nature.

2 weeks to flatten the curve, no wait:
2 weeks to avoid hospitals being overrun, no, wait:
2 weeks to avoid increased case count, no, wait:
2 weeks to avoid increased death count, no, wait:
2 weeks to avoid a spike, no, wait:
2 weeks to avoid a single death, no, wait:
Masks do no good
Masks are mandatory
2 weeks of mask wearing but
Masks will still be required forever
Two masks are better than one.
Three masks are better than two
2 weeks to a vaccine
Getting vaccinated doesn’t mean we can open up
2 weeks to herd immunity
Herd immunity doesn’t mean things can ever go back to normal

I mean the list goes on and on and on.


We’re 12 months into a 2-week request, that keeps changing by the way. All while politicians and the science community can’t agree whether the sky is blue.

[GannonFan]

Covid is more than medical - there were and are psychological, economic and communication/marketing aspects that should have been considered and were and continue to be overlooked by many medical experts.

Covid is medical, had we followed the medical advise, we wouldn't have the psychological and economic issues that followed. By not following the protocol, Covid spread, and the government got involved, leading to the psychological and economic issues. Several segments of the economy are booming right now, and at least where I am, there is not much that is on lockdown, just the slow release of the vaccine.

I actually disagree with this, and I'm not sure where you're even getting this. You're saying that this was able to be stopped in terms of spreading if people followed medical advice. But we weren't told to wear masks until late March/early April. This thing was spreading even here in the US back in January if not even a littler earlier. There was no medical advice saying things had to be different before March - international travel was still going on and everything was open. Even Fauci was saying that COVID wasn't something the US had to worry about. The only places in the world that were able to avoid COVID spread were Taiwan and New Zealand, and both were isolated islands that are easily able to close their doors to the outside world.

As for the current situation, I agree, even in PA, at this time, most everything, other than pro sports and schools, are basically open, with restrictions of course. If everyone is vaccinated by June as it seems to be, it will be a mostly normal summer and an even more normal fall.

[kalm]

Our fear of government is often irrational...looking at the last year especially.

We are at 500,000 dead partly because of it. Fear of the CDC, fear of Fauci, fear of vaccines, fear of someone telling us to be a little more community minded and sacrificing the holidays to save lives. No one tells me what to do! Because...freedom!

That’s not to say fear of government over-reach is unwarranted but it’s a trade off.

For those who fear big government the most, the best reaction would have been to heed the warnings and voluntarily take the precautions. We collectively decided that rugged independence in the face of minor inconveniences like skipping graduation parties and the annual Thanksgiving poker game were more valuable than 100’s of thousands of lives and less lockdowns.

Two things:
A) Individualism and independence are two of the foundations upon which this country was built. But, whenever YOU use the words individualism or independence, you always put the word “rugged” in front of it, like it’s bad, like “toxic” masculinity. Is there any other kind of individualism or independence to you that isn’t toxic?

B) if you feel our fear of government is irrational after the last year, there’s no helping you. We didn’t “fear” the CDC, Fauci or vaccines before COVID. It was government’s RESPONSE (and CDC’s and Fauci’s, and WHO’s, etc) that made us fear them. If our government (and associated peripheral agencies) had closed ranks with a coordinated response, quickly, 95% of Americans would have fallen in line. But, between their continuous waffling and ignoring of hundreds of years of pandemic research (as pointed out by SG), combined with the tit-for-tat approach where “Orange Man Bad” colored literally EVERY decision coming out of a “red state” or a “blue state”, we were pretty much fucked from the beginning. THAT’S why people decided that “thanksgiving poker parties were more valuable than hundreds of thousands of lives”...the government proved VERY early in this “pandemic” that they were NOT interested in saving lives, only interested in control and power and making the other side look bad. When the government doesn’t appear to care, when the rules are applied so unevenly the government is blatantly, openly picking the pandemic winners and the pandemic losers, yea, “rugged Independence” is gonna fire the fuck up and people are gonna tell your benevolent government to kindly fuck off and try and survive...and LIVE.

It’s sad when someone hates independence and individualism so much, comrade.

I love me some rugged individualism. I use it as a pejorative here to trigger. How’s it working?

The nation was also founded and has been governed by GROUPs of men who worked together for a COLLECTIVE cause. you know...all that ‘to secure these rights, governments are created by men/we shall hang together or surely hang separately/ one nation under god/...mumbo jumbo.

And yes, I understand the need for limitations on government enshrined in our founding ideals as well.

As for the politics...that’s, again, a matter of leadership. We can make excuses for why a team isn’t on the same page and playing together as a unit but most of the time it falls on leadership (coaching).

[UNI88]

Two things:
A) Individualism and independence are two of the foundations upon which this country was built. But, whenever YOU use the words individualism or independence, you always put the word “rugged” in front of it, like it’s bad, like “toxic” masculinity. Is there any other kind of individualism or independence to you that isn’t toxic?

B) if you feel our fear of government is irrational after the last year, there’s no helping you. We didn’t “fear” the CDC, Fauci or vaccines before COVID. It was government’s RESPONSE (and CDC’s and Fauci’s, and WHO’s, etc) that made us fear them. If our government (and associated peripheral agencies) had closed ranks with a coordinated response, quickly, 95% of Americans would have fallen in line. But, between their continuous waffling and ignoring of hundreds of years of pandemic research (as pointed out by SG), combined with the tit-for-tat approach where “Orange Man Bad” colored literally EVERY decision coming out of a “red state” or a “blue state”, we were pretty much fucked from the beginning. THAT’S why people decided that “thanksgiving poker parties were more valuable than hundreds of thousands of lives”...the government proved VERY early in this “pandemic” that they were NOT interested in saving lives, only interested in control and power and making the other side look bad. When the government doesn’t appear to care, when the rules are applied so unevenly the government is blatantly, openly picking the pandemic winners and the pandemic losers, yea, “rugged Independence” is gonna fire the fuck up and people are gonna tell your benevolent government to kindly fuck off and try and survive...and LIVE.

It’s sad when someone hates independence and individualism so much, comrade.

I love me some rugged individualism. I use it as a pejorative here to trigger. How’s it working?

The nation was also founded and has been governed by GROUPs of men who voluntarily worked together for a COLLECTIVE cause. you know...all that ‘to secure these rights, governments are created by men/we shall hang together or surely hang separately/ one nation under god/...mumbo jumbo.

And yes, I understand the need for limitations on government enshrined in our founding ideals as well.

As for the politics...that’s, again, a matter of leadership. We can make excuses for why a team isn’t on the same page and playing together as a unit but most of the time it falls on leadership (coaching).

FYP

[AshevilleApp]

9800!