CID1990 wrote:ASUMountaineer wrote:
Blah blah blah, get your head out of Bush's crotch. Quit using Congress to deflect responsibility from Bush. The fact is that Congress was just as wrong to: 1) vote for the war, then 2) say we had lost, yet 3) continue funding it. Get it through your skull Bubba, Congress and the Bush administration have blood on their hands.
I'm not reinventing anything, that's what the Bush administration did (which you admitted). They changed the reason for the war when conditions on the ground showed they were completely wrong. However, blaming Congress does nothing to reduce the blame on Bush--he wanted to be an autocrat and Congress gave him that power (BOTH WERE WRONG).
By the way, most of the time, people are judged for the way things turn out. You know, after the fact...you know, like making a choice and living with the consequences. The fact is, the Bush administration (with Congress' help) rushed this country into an illegal war, that never should have been fought, for reasons that were either wrong or fabricated. Of course hindsight is 20/20, so we can learn from our mistakes. That's just logical, common sense. Give me a break, the UN couldn't find WMDs. Bush "reinvented" (as you say) the reason for war when he was found to be 100% wrong (or a complete liar). Those supporting Bush's agenda with Iraq are the revisionists, not us sane people who don't want to control the world.
OK, Bubba. You win. You just pointed out that we agree on many points, congratulations. I will, however, point out one inaccuracy. Congress most certainly DID authorize the use of force as a result of Saddam ignoring UN resolutions. You can play semantics all you want, but first look up resolution 107-243, which became law in 2002. Congress does not give the President the authority to declare war. That power rests constitutionally with Congress. The President can only ASk Congress for a declaration. Bushitler McCheneyburton's evil plan to suck Iraqi oil up through a straw never even gets off the ground without a 2/3rds vote in both sides of Congress. As a matter of fact, Congress was SO willing to go to war that they sidestepped the requirement for a formal declaration and simply passed a resolution authorizing the use of force.
Why not just simply say that we as a country made a mistake? I know it pains a lot of people to blame ANYONE but Bush alone, but it just makes them sound like a bunch of hippies blaming Nixon for Vietnam.
Bush can't be Forrest Gump one minute, and then brilliant enough to fool Congress the next. This goes back to my central point which you seem to have gotten at one point, and then lost it again: there are a LOT of people who chatter about the war now but were silent in 2002. If those folks want to say they were fooled and are therefore now against the war based on that fact, then fine. My problem is with the people who supported expending blood and treasure, people who saw the evidence which they felt was strong enough to support that expenditure of American lives, now claiming that they were somehow fooled as a way to absolve themselves of responsibility. There are only a handful of people who fit into the first category. The second one is a multitude.
Like I said, I have more respect for the Quakers. At least they are consistent.
Ok, I'm not going to call you Bubba again...how about Citdog's minion?
It's not an inaccuracy. Congress (as you said) didn't declare war. And, I said Congress and Bush are to blame, so I (and others) are not only focusing on blaming Bush (granted most left wingers are). Again, ONLY Congress can declare war. The Congress authorized Bush to use force if needed, (as I stated) that was their mistake. Bush didn't need that to mobilize troops, he can do that without Congress' approval. What he wanted was a way to declare war without getting Congress to do so (because he knew they wouldn't declare war)--he accomplished that because Reps. and Sens. were coming up for re-election and didn't want to seem "weak on terror," but could always say "Bush sent us to war." (See Hillary Clinton). [The difference between Bush and Nixon is Nixon didn't invade Vietnam, he was lucky enough to come in after the fact]
I did not support the war to begin with, and don't now. I agree that there were very few who were against the war before hand and said something--I find it funny that those people are the ones who have been called "wackos." I'm not pulling an "I told you so." I'm stating why Bush and Congress were wrong. It remains to be seen if Iraq will ever be stable, or if it will be like Korea and Vietnam. I hope it will stablize. This is not an attack on the military or our sovereign right to protect our country. This is about the secrecy, lying, changing of stories, etc. associated with this debacle known as the Iraq War.
I'm disagreeing with your stance that there was overwhelming evidence to suggest invading a sovereign country, and that that intelligence was not fabricated (or at least stretched to achieve a desirable position). It is clear to most people that the administration was willing to do whatever it took to invade Iraq. The fact that history (and apparent facts) have proven the decision was wrong, is unfortunate. A lot of people have died based on incorrect or fabricated intelligence AND the wrong decision to invade a sovereign country. Like I said before, there's a reason we didn't go to Baghdad in the Persian Gulf War.
We probably have a lot of common ground between us there Cid90. We both, I think, want the war to end successfully (of course "success" varies) and to bring the troops home. However, it is our responsibility as citizens to scrutinize the decisions of our leaders and take necessary action to ensure those people are not able to make the same mistakes again (especially as the media is becoming incapable of this). That is the most patriotic thing we can do...in all reality that is what our founding fathers aimed to do. They were the originial rebels, extremists, and secessionists.
And, I apologize if my posts on the subject have jumped around. I don't take much time to edit, just type as I'm thinking. Damnit, I have to quit typing so much, I feel like Tman...
