We Are All Neoliberals Now

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We Are All Neoliberals Now

Post by kalm »

Fantastic read on the history and affects of neoliberalism including how the left has been asleep at the wheel since the 1970's and/or, in many instances, has learned to embrace it. :ohno:

I'm honestly curious for some criticism from the conk intellectuals on the board. :nod:

This also might help some of you get past your issues with political labels. :mrgreen:

Here's a few snippets, but read the whole thing. You might not agree, but it's a solid piece. :nod:
Imagine if the people of the Soviet Union had never heard of communism. The ideology that dominates our lives has, for most of us, no name. Mention it in conversation and you’ll be rewarded with a shrug. Even if your listeners have heard the term before, they will struggle to define it. Neoliberalism: do you know what it is?...........................

Those who own and run the UK’s privatised or semi-privatised services make stupendous fortunes by investing little and charging much. In Russia and India, oligarchs acquired state assets through firesales. In Mexico, Carlos Slim was granted control of almost all landline and mobile phone services and soon became the world’s richest man.

Financialisation, as Andrew Sayer notes in Why We Can’t Afford the Rich, has had a similar impact. “Like rent,” he argues, “interest is ... unearned income that accrues without any effort”. As the poor become poorer and the rich become richer, the rich acquire increasing control over another crucial asset: money. Interest payments, overwhelmingly, are a transfer of money from the poor to the rich. As property prices and the withdrawal of state funding load people with debt (think of the switch from student grants to student loans), the banks and their executives clean up.

Sayer argues that the past four decades have been characterised by a transfer of wealth not only from the poor to the rich, but within the ranks of the wealthy: from those who make their money by producing new goods or services to those who make their money by controlling existing assets and harvesting rent, interest or capital gains. Earned income has been supplanted by unearned income.

Neoliberal policies are everywhere beset by market failures. Not only are the banks too big to fail, but so are the corporations now charged with delivering public services. As Tony Judt pointed out in Ill Fares the Land, Hayek forgot that vital national services cannot be allowed to collapse, which means that competition cannot run its course. Business takes the profits, the state keeps the risk.

The greater the failure, the more extreme the ideology becomes. Governments use neoliberal crises as both excuse and opportunity to cut taxes, privatise remaining public services, rip holes in the social safety net, deregulate corporations and re-regulate citizens. The self-hating state now sinks its teeth into every organ of the public sector.................

The words used by neoliberalism often conceal more than they elucidate. “The market” sounds like a natural system that might bear upon us equally, like gravity or atmospheric pressure. But it is fraught with power relations. What “the market wants” tends to mean what corporations and their bosses want. “Investment”, as Sayer notes, means two quite different things. One is the funding of productive and socially useful activities, the other is the purchase of existing assets to milk them for rent, interest, dividends and capital gains. Using the same word for different activities “camouflages the sources of wealth”, leading us to confuse wealth extraction with wealth creation.
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/a ... ge-monbiot
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Re: We Are All Neoliberals Now

Post by YoUDeeMan »

Wow, what a bloated clown. :roll:

The author managed to disparage Trump and the Koch brothers without mentioning Hillary and her gang of thieves. :rofl:

Loneliness? A whole country's loneliness, and the world's, is based upon neoliberalism? :?

This article is what happens when someone takes an idea, or situation, they don't like, and then tries to blame EVERY major issue they don't like, real or contrived, on that idea. :dunce:

An article that had potential...shot down by simple minded thinking. :tothehand:
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Re: We Are All Neoliberals Now

Post by CAA Flagship »

Hey kalm,
Why do you fill your head up with this shit?
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Re: We Are All Neoliberals Now

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote:Fantastic read on the history and affects of neoliberalism including how the left has been asleep at the wheel since the 1970's and/or, in many instances, has learned to embrace it. :ohno:

I'm honestly curious for some criticism from the conk intellectuals on the board. :nod:

This also might help some of you get past your issues with political labels. :mrgreen:

Here's a few snippets, but read the whole thing. You might not agree, but it's a solid piece. :nod:
Financialisation, as Andrew Sayer notes in Why We Can’t Afford the Rich, has had a similar impact. “Like rent,” he argues, “interest is ... unearned income that accrues without any effort”. As the poor become poorer and the rich become richer, the rich acquire increasing control over another crucial asset: money. Interest payments, overwhelmingly, are a transfer of money from the poor to the rich. As property prices and the withdrawal of state funding load people with debt (think of the switch from student grants to student loans), the banks and their executives clean up.

Sayer argues that the past four decades have been characterised by a transfer of wealth not only from the poor to the rich, but within the ranks of the wealthy: from those who make their money by producing new goods or services to those who make their money by controlling existing assets and harvesting rent, interest or capital gains. Earned income has been supplanted by unearned income.
Transfer of wealth my ass. I LOVE these idiots who insist it's some kind of a "zero sum" game. If the rich are getting richer, the poor MUST be getting poorer? That's a fucking non-starter, friend. The fact that the GAP is getting larger is one thing. But the poor are NOT getting poorer.

And fuck him if he thinks there's some utopian world where money is lent for free, rent is free, etc., etc.

Idiots like him shouldn't be allowed to propagate.
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Re: We Are All Neoliberals Now

Post by Ivytalk »

Congrats, klam! You've located the seminal (no homo) Guardian piece that captures your personal philosophy perfectly! Complete with the obligatory Brit misspellings (privatise...characterise...sodomise...) and snark! :rofl:
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Re: We Are All Neoliberals Now

Post by CID1990 »

Klam with a cryptic response about how he's the only one who understands the article (and a little misdirection) in 3.... 2.... 1.....
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Re: We Are All Neoliberals Now

Post by kalm »

CID1990 wrote:Klam with a cryptic response about how he's the only one who understands the article (and a little misdirection) in 3.... 2.... 1.....
On the contrarty, I'm guessing you understood it just fine and recognized some of the many good issues raised in it. :nod:

I agree with Cluck on those two points. Clinton is a classic neo-liberal and who should have been mentioned. The loneliness attribution is the weakest point he makes.

As for Z, his response is sadly unsurprising. The zero sum game fallacy meme reminds me of Greenspan and Bernanke's claims in the early 2000's of how the magic of the markets would see housing prices go up in perpetuity (because...you know perpetual growth occurs elsewhere in the universe). And as everyone should know, Greenspan was King Randian and a neo-liberal superhero. :lol:

The economy as a whole is not a zero sum game until the end, so it's really a pointless argument. Within the economy zero sum games certainly exist and they have an impact. Here's a quick read on the subject...

http://ritholtz.com/2006/10/zero-sum-game-zsg/

But I do enjoy the earnest defense of neo-liberalism here... :thumb:

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Re: We Are All Neoliberals Now

Post by CAA Flagship »

Hey. You didn't acknowledge MY response to your original post, but you did for everyone else. :tothehand:
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Re: We Are All Neoliberals Now

Post by kalm »

Ivytalk wrote:Congrats, klam! You've located the seminal (no homo) Guardian piece that captures your personal philosophy perfectly! Complete with the obligatory Brit misspellings (privatise...characterise...sodomise...) and snark! :rofl:
Oops...forgot to recognize this little gem.

:notworthy:
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Re: We Are All Neoliberals Now

Post by CAA Flagship »

:ohno: :ohno:
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Re: We Are All Neoliberals Now

Post by kalm »

There was something else I needed to say in this thread...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................







































Hmmm. For some reason it's escaping me.

Oh well. probably wasn't important anyway.
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Re: We Are All Neoliberals Now

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote: As for Z, his response is sadly unsurprising. The zero sum game fallacy meme reminds me of Greenspan and Bernanke's claims in the early 2000's of how the magic of the markets would see housing prices go up in perpetuity (because...you know perpetual growth occurs elsewhere in the universe). And as everyone should know, Greenspan was King Randian and a neo-liberal superhero. :lol:

The economy as a whole is not a zero sum game until the end, so it's really a pointless argument. Within the economy zero sum games certainly exist and they have an impact. Here's a quick read on the subject...
Sadly unsurprised, because it's unsadly true. The implication that somehow if I'm making MORE money, you must be making LESS. Fucking retards. And as I said, a nonstarter. The only fallacy here is that this idiot is allowed access to a computer.

This is from the ZSG article you linked. ANOTHER idiot:
Business: Marketshare is another example of zero sum: Consider all the ZSG losers who have seen their businesses hurt by the winners in competition: GM is losing to Toyota; DJ, NYT, WP, and Knight Ridder have been losing to Yahoo & Google; Sony PS is losing to MSFT XBox; Intel has been losing to AMD.

There are situations where the pie is expanding, but even there the ZSG works in percentage basis (not raw numbers). Google has been taking search share from Miscrosoft and Yahoo. But the entire pie has gotten so big so quickly that even the % share losers are still winning — short term.
Even when it's NOT a zero sum game this mental midget can't bring himself to admit that it's not. Wealth is NOT (repeat: NOT) a zero sum game. Are there certain INDIVIDUAL occurrences and situations where one company/person wins and one company/person loses? Certainly. But comparing personal wealth and income growth to business competition is flat out ridiculous. I'm not "competing" against my coworkers or people across town for some mythical finite pool of money....I will earn exactly as much money as my skill set, intelligence and work ethic allow. And same goes for my company--how well we succeed will have little to do with the competition and everything to do with how well we react to marketplace demands. It's EXACTLY this kind of ZSG thinking that props up the 99%'ers who believe, somehow, that because THEIR life sucks, it must be someone ELSE'S fault.

And your comparison of the housing bubble to ZSG? Equally retarded.
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Re: We Are All Neoliberals Now

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote:
kalm wrote: As for Z, his response is sadly unsurprising. The zero sum game fallacy meme reminds me of Greenspan and Bernanke's claims in the early 2000's of how the magic of the markets would see housing prices go up in perpetuity (because...you know perpetual growth occurs elsewhere in the universe). And as everyone should know, Greenspan was King Randian and a neo-liberal superhero. :lol:

The economy as a whole is not a zero sum game until the end, so it's really a pointless argument. Within the economy zero sum games certainly exist and they have an impact. Here's a quick read on the subject...
Sadly unsurprised, because it's unsadly true. The implication that somehow if I'm making MORE money, you must be making LESS. Fucking retards. And as I said, a nonstarter. The only fallacy here is that this idiot is allowed access to a computer.

This is from the ZSG article you linked. ANOTHER idiot:
Business: Marketshare is another example of zero sum: Consider all the ZSG losers who have seen their businesses hurt by the winners in competition: GM is losing to Toyota; DJ, NYT, WP, and Knight Ridder have been losing to Yahoo & Google; Sony PS is losing to MSFT XBox; Intel has been losing to AMD.

There are situations where the pie is expanding, but even there the ZSG works in percentage basis (not raw numbers). Google has been taking search share from Miscrosoft and Yahoo. But the entire pie has gotten so big so quickly that even the % share losers are still winning — short term.
Even when it's NOT a zero sum game this mental midget can't bring himself to admit that it's not. Wealth is NOT (repeat: NOT) a zero sum game. Are there certain INDIVIDUAL occurrences and situations where one company/person wins and one company/person loses? Certainly. But comparing personal wealth and income growth to business competition is flat out ridiculous. I'm not "competing" against my coworkers or people across town for some mythical finite pool of money....I will earn exactly as much money as my skill set, intelligence and work ethic allow. And same goes for my company--how well we succeed will have little to do with the competition and everything to do with how well we react to marketplace demands. It's EXACTLY this kind of ZSG thinking that props up the 99%'ers who believe, somehow, that because THEIR life sucks, it must be someone ELSE'S fault.

And your comparison of the housing bubble to ZSG? Equally retarded.
And JSO wonders why Trump is so popular among some conservatives... :notworthy:

:lol:
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Re: We Are All Neoliberals Now

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
Sadly unsurprised, because it's unsadly true. The implication that somehow if I'm making MORE money, you must be making LESS. Fucking retards. And as I said, a nonstarter. The only fallacy here is that this idiot is allowed access to a computer.

This is from the ZSG article you linked. ANOTHER idiot:


Even when it's NOT a zero sum game this mental midget can't bring himself to admit that it's not. Wealth is NOT (repeat: NOT) a zero sum game. Are there certain INDIVIDUAL occurrences and situations where one company/person wins and one company/person loses? Certainly. But comparing personal wealth and income growth to business competition is flat out ridiculous. I'm not "competing" against my coworkers or people across town for some mythical finite pool of money....I will earn exactly as much money as my skill set, intelligence and work ethic allow. And same goes for my company--how well we succeed will have little to do with the competition and everything to do with how well we react to marketplace demands. It's EXACTLY this kind of ZSG thinking that props up the 99%'ers who believe, somehow, that because THEIR life sucks, it must be someone ELSE'S fault.

And your comparison of the housing bubble to ZSG? Equally retarded.
And JSO wonders why Trump is so popular among some conservatives... :notworthy:

:lol:
Really? I can't stand Trump. :tothehand:

And the fact that you classified this drivel as "fantastic" in your original post speaks VOLUMES about you and where you're coming from.
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Re: We Are All Neoliberals Now

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote:
kalm wrote:
And JSO wonders why Trump is so popular among some conservatives... :notworthy:

:lol:
Really? I can't stand Trump. :tothehand:

And the fact that you classified this drivel as "fantastic" in your original post speaks VOLUMES about you and where you're coming from.
1) You, sounding like Trump.

2) But not liking Trump.

3) And thinking I care or am surprised you regard it as drivel...

Is a sweet, sweet trifecta for me. :clap: :mrgreen:
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Re: We Are All Neoliberals Now

Post by Pwns »

kalm wrote:
And JSO wonders why Trump is so popular among some conservatives... :notworthy:

:lol:
Kalm, that is not the progressive-approved explanation for Trump's popularity. People vote Trump because racism, not out of some rebuke of "neo-liberalism". Get with the program. :ohno:
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Re: We Are All Neoliberals Now

Post by AZGrizFan »

kalm wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
Really? I can't stand Trump. :tothehand:

And the fact that you classified this drivel as "fantastic" in your original post speaks VOLUMES about you and where you're coming from.
1) You, sounding like Trump.

2) But not liking Trump.

3) And thinking I care or am surprised you regard it as drivel...

Is a sweet, sweet trifecta for me. :clap: :mrgreen:
You think trump invented his schtick? :roll: :kisswink:

But go ahead, keep claiming you're an "independent".... :rofl: :rofl:
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Re: We Are All Neoliberals Now

Post by kalm »

AZGrizFan wrote:
kalm wrote:
1) You, sounding like Trump.

2) But not liking Trump.

3) And thinking I care or am surprised you regard it as drivel...

Is a sweet, sweet trifecta for me. :clap: :mrgreen:
You think trump invented his schtick? :roll: :kisswink:

But go ahead, keep claiming you're an "independent".... :rofl: :rofl:
No that's downright mean.

Here I've been, on these very pages, endorsing Trump, vilifying Clinton, at the forefront of Johnson support (no homo), posting links to National Review....

I've been working my ass off to develop my conk cred...and this is how I get treated?

:tothehand:
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Re: We Are All Neoliberals Now

Post by CAA Flagship »

kalm wrote:
AZGrizFan wrote:
You think trump invented his schtick? :roll: :kisswink:

But go ahead, keep claiming you're an "independent".... :rofl: :rofl:
No that's downright mean.

Here I've been, on these very pages, endorsing Trump, vilifying Clinton, at the forefront of Johnson support (no homo), posting links to National Review....

I've been working my ass off to develop my conk cred...and this is how I get treated?

:tothehand:
Your conk cred gets discredited every time you lift your skirt. :coffee:
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Re: We Are All Neoliberals Now

Post by YoUDeeMan »

kalm wrote:
On the contrarty, I'm guessing you understood it just fine and recognized some of the many good issues raised in it. :nod:

I agree with Cluck on those two points. Clinton is a classic neo-liberal and who should have been mentioned. The loneliness attribution is the weakest point he makes.
Of course you agree...I read, understand, and respond. And, I'm known to milk things a bit. :lol:

However, those were not the only two points that the author screwed up on. Z is correct that when some people gain wealth, it does not mean that others are not also gaining wealth. Our poor live pretty well compared to the rest of the world...and compared to our past. Every physical need is fulfilled (housing, food, education, medical - yes, medical...any poor person, or illegal immigrant, can walk into a clinic and get served) for our poor.

However...the real problem is jealousy. No matter how well people are living, they look at others and say, "Hey, I want that, too." And that is where the problem starts. :nod: It soon becomes, "Hey, I deserve that...give it to me."

Very few people say, "Hey, I will go out and EARN the things I want."

Very few people plan ahead. They are too busy being entertained.

We have an entire world that wants to look at TV screens (games, movies, TV series) or their phone, instead of actually interacting deeply with others. Quick texts have replaced in-depth conversations. Very few people actually want to discuss politics...they want to preach it.

This has nothing to do with neoliberalism (except, perhaps, in a propagandized way)...it has to do with how we've allowed ourselves to expect quick results.

I just sat down with my 12-year old last night and explained, for the 10th time, the concept of compound interest. Invest at 18...and keep putting a little away each year (instead of blowing your money on video games/cigarettes, or other useless things), and you'll be OK. And, when Mrs. Cluck and I pass away...keep our house and rent it to UD professors. And yes, rental income IS work. We went over average rental income in our neighborhood (nice income)...but you have to replace a roof every 30 years, a water heater every 10 years, concrete work every so often, take down trees, other home expenses (and budget for those things)...you name it. You have to be smart and make good contracts...and if you don't manage it yourself, you have to hire a rental company to do it for you. That takes time and effort. It is not free money. I explained to Lil' Cluck that when my mother passes (hopefully not for a while), my brother and I have to make a decision...rent or sell. The house is nearby, so I might buy his half of the house from him and rent it. My wife will have a similar decision to make about her mother's properties up in Michigan. Sell the farm...or keep it and allow the neighboring farms to farm it (at a cost, of course). How about the undeveloped lakeside property? The house near the lake? The other undeveloped property (swamp and forest...they want to keep it natural). With her, there will be his sons involved in that decision...but we can always buy them out. We can always sell all of those properties and purchase a vacation house up there...or just get rid of it entirely and do something else with the money...hookers and blow come to mind.

Hope those decisions are a long way off...but they will impact Lil' Cluck at one time or another. The concepts of earning and saving/investing are sinking in. My son wants to start a business this summer. :thumb:

But, in the end, everyone has a choice. Surveys show that young people these days do not want the burden of home ownership. They want nice apartments.

That is sooooooooooooooo cute. Toss your money away willingly to someone else. But hey, let's follow our carefree impulses...we deserve to be free of responsibilities. Later on, when we look at our lack of savings and want to settle down, we can always complain about those rich people that rented to us...and then vote for some Liberals who will tax their money and give it to me when I am, ready to settle down. Isn't that how it is supposed to work? :dunce:

Too many flaws in that article kalm...it was a whiny complaint. And, funny thing, the author comes up with NO alternative to the present economic model...and no resolution regarding people's attitudes towards, or aversion to, building their wealth. That kind of thinking, is, or course, someone else's responsibility. :rofl:
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Re: We Are All Neoliberals Now

Post by kalm »

Cluck U wrote:
kalm wrote:
On the contrarty, I'm guessing you understood it just fine and recognized some of the many good issues raised in it. :nod:

I agree with Cluck on those two points. Clinton is a classic neo-liberal and who should have been mentioned. The loneliness attribution is the weakest point he makes.
Of course you agree...I read, understand, and respond. And, I'm known to milk things a bit. :lol:

However, those were not the only two points that the author screwed up on. Z is correct that when some people gain wealth, it does not mean that others are not also gaining wealth. Our poor live pretty well compared to the rest of the world...and compared to our past. Every physical need is fulfilled (housing, food, education, medical - yes, medical...any poor person, or illegal immigrant, can walk into a clinic and get served) for our poor.

However...the real problem is jealousy. No matter how well people are living, they look at others and say, "Hey, I want that, too." And that is where the problem starts. :nod: It soon becomes, "Hey, I deserve that...give it to me."

Very few people say, "Hey, I will go out and EARN the things I want."

Very few people plan ahead. They are too busy being entertained.

We have an entire world that wants to look at TV screens (games, movies, TV series) or their phone, instead of actually interacting deeply with others. Quick texts have replaced in-depth conversations. Very few people actually want to discuss politics...they want to preach it.

This has nothing to do with neoliberalism (except, perhaps, in a propagandized way)...it has to do with how we've allowed ourselves to expect quick results.

I just sat down with my 12-year old last night and explained, for the 10th time, the concept of compound interest. Invest at 18...and keep putting a little away each year (instead of blowing your money on video games/cigarettes, or other useless things), and you'll be OK. And, when Mrs. Cluck and I pass away...keep our house and rent it to UD professors. And yes, rental income IS work. We went over average rental income in our neighborhood (nice income)...but you have to replace a roof every 30 years, a water heater every 10 years, concrete work every so often, take down trees, other home expenses (and budget for those things)...you name it. You have to be smart and make good contracts...and if you don't manage it yourself, you have to hire a rental company to do it for you. That takes time and effort. It is not free money. I explained to Lil' Cluck that when my mother passes (hopefully not for a while), my brother and I have to make a decision...rent or sell. The house is nearby, so I might buy his half of the house from him and rent it. My wife will have a similar decision to make about her mother's properties up in Michigan. Sell the farm...or keep it and allow the neighboring farms to farm it (at a cost, of course). How about the undeveloped lakeside property? The house near the lake? The other undeveloped property (swamp and forest...they want to keep it natural). With her, there will be his sons involved in that decision...but we can always buy them out. We can always sell all of those properties and purchase a vacation house up there...or just get rid of it entirely and do something else with the money...hookers and blow come to mind.

Hope those decisions are a long way off...but they will impact Lil' Cluck at one time or another. The concepts of earning and saving/investing are sinking in. My son wants to start a business this summer. :thumb:

But, in the end, everyone has a choice. Surveys show that young people these days do not want the burden of home ownership. They want nice apartments.

That is sooooooooooooooo cute. Toss your money away willingly to someone else. But hey, let's follow our carefree impulses...we deserve to be free of responsibilities. Later on, when we look at our lack of savings and want to settle down, we can always complain about those rich people that rented to us...and then vote for some Liberals who will tax their money and give it to me when I am, ready to settle down. Isn't that how it is supposed to work? :dunce:

Too many flaws in that article kalm...it was a whiny complaint. And, funny thing, the author comes up with NO alternative to the present economic model...and no resolution regarding people's attitudes towards, or aversion to, building their wealth. That kind of thinking, is, or course, someone else's responsibility. :rofl:
That's the kind of response I was hoping for. Great work! :clap:

I will share this with my boys tonight.

When I get more time, I will also read the article again and offer up a defense...if there is one :mrgreen:
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kalm
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Re: We Are All Neoliberals Now

Post by kalm »

You see, Z? I'm open minded to well stated different views.

I'm independent AND non-partisan like that!

:whistle:






















:lol:
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