Western Media Propaganda

[kalm]

Virtuous wars are EXACTLY the kind of wars you need to propagandize...

Yes. I've been saying that for a couple pages.

No shit?

[Skjellyfetti]

A true war story is never moral. It does not instruct, nor encourage virtue, nor suggest models of proper human behavior, nor restrain men from doing the things men have always done. If a story seems moral, do not believe it. If at the end of a war story you feel uplifted, or if you feel that some small bit of rectitude has been salvaged from the larger waste, then you have been made the victim of a very old and terrible lie. There is no rectitude whatsoever. There is no virtue. As a first rule of thumb, therefore, you can tell a true war story by its absolute and uncompromising allegiance to obscenity and evil.

[89Hen]

A true war story is never moral. It does not instruct, nor encourage virtue, nor suggest models of proper human behavior, nor restrain men from doing the things men have always done. If a story seems moral, do not believe it. If at the end of a war story you feel uplifted, or if you feel that some small bit of rectitude has been salvaged from the larger waste, then you have been made the victim of a very old and terrible lie. There is no rectitude whatsoever. There is no virtue. As a first rule of thumb, therefore, you can tell a true war story by its absolute and uncompromising allegiance to obscenity and evil.

I would expect nothing less from you Jelly.

[GrizFanStuckInUtah]

A true war story is never moral. It does not instruct, nor encourage virtue, nor suggest models of proper human behavior, nor restrain men from doing the things men have always done. If a story seems moral, do not believe it. If at the end of a war story you feel uplifted, or if you feel that some small bit of rectitude has been salvaged from the larger waste, then you have been made the victim of a very old and terrible lie. There is no rectitude whatsoever. There is no virtue. As a first rule of thumb, therefore, you can tell a true war story by its absolute and uncompromising allegiance to obscenity and evil.

What a fucktard that guy is.

If I had been enlisted or drafted during the Viet Nam era, I would have gone. It wouldn't have been because I agreed or disagreed with it. How much control over why we were there did the average GI have? None, if not less. It isn't about agreeing with why you are there, it is do you abide by the larger notion of god and country? Are you willing to fight for it or not? You do it for the guy next to you and to do your duty to country and family. You don't have to agree with everything but you have to have some guiding principle or we are truly screwed. We have enough young men and women right now that still get it but for how much longer, I don't know. I have yet to talk to anyone that has been in combat that said they WANTED to be there and enjoyed it. We all have our reasons for going and the fact that the coward above chooses not to believe stories of heroism and good that is done makes him not just a coward but an asshole as well. Guys like Tim O'Brien will never get it.

[Grizalltheway]

What a fucktard that guy is.

If I had been enlisted or drafted during the Viet Nam era, I would have gone. It wouldn't have been because I agreed or disagreed with it. How much control over why we were there did the average GI have? None, if not less. It isn't about agreeing with why you are there, it is do you abide by the larger notion of god and country? Are you willing to fight for it or not? You do it for the guy next to you and to do your duty to country and family. You don't have to agree with everything but you have to have some guiding principle or we are truly screwed. We have enough young men and women right now that still get it but for how much longer, I don't know. I have yet to talk to anyone that has been in combat that said they WANTED to be there and enjoyed it. We all have our reasons for going and the fact that the coward above chooses not to believe stories of heroism and good that is done makes him not just a coward but an asshole as well. Guys like Tim O'Brien will never get it.

Umm...Google is your friend.

That same year he was drafted into the United States Army and was sent to Vietnam, where he served from 1969 to 1970 in 3rd Platoon, Company A, 5th Battalion, 46th Infantry Regiment. He served in the division that contained a unit involved in the infamous My Lai Massacre. O'Brien has said that when his unit got to the area around My Lai (referred to as "Pinkville" by the U.S. forces), "we all wondered why the place was so hostile. We did not know there had been a massacre there a year earlier. The news about that only came out later, while we were there, and then we knew."[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_O%27Brien_(author)

[GrizFanStuckInUtah]

What a fucktard that guy is.

If I had been enlisted or drafted during the Viet Nam era, I would have gone. It wouldn't have been because I agreed or disagreed with it. How much control over why we were there did the average GI have? None, if not less. It isn't about agreeing with why you are there, it is do you abide by the larger notion of god and country? Are you willing to fight for it or not? You do it for the guy next to you and to do your duty to country and family. You don't have to agree with everything but you have to have some guiding principle or we are truly screwed. We have enough young men and women right now that still get it but for how much longer, I don't know. I have yet to talk to anyone that has been in combat that said they WANTED to be there and enjoyed it. We all have our reasons for going and the fact that the coward above chooses not to believe stories of heroism and good that is done makes him not just a coward but an asshole as well. Guys like Tim O'Brien will never get it.

Umm...Google is your friend.

That same year he was drafted into the United States Army and was sent to Vietnam, where he served from 1969 to 1970 in 3rd Platoon, Company A, 5th Battalion, 46th Infantry Regiment. He served in the division that contained a unit involved in the infamous My Lai Massacre. O'Brien has said that when his unit got to the area around My Lai (referred to as "Pinkville" by the U.S. forces), "we all wondered why the place was so hostile. We did not know there had been a massacre there a year earlier. The news about that only came out later, while we were there, and then we knew."[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_O%27Brien_(author)

I still think he is a coward and an asshole if he truly believes that quote. He doesn't get to say everyone is a liar and nothing good happens in war, that basically no one can be decent and do the right thing. But maybe that quote was cherry picked and taken out of context....................

[89Hen]

O'Brien was drafted for military service in 1968, two weeks after completing his undergraduate degree at Macalester College in St. Paul, Minnesota, where he had enrolled in 1964. He earned a bachelor's degree in government and politics. An excellent student, O'Brien looked forward to attending graduate school and studying political science. During the course of his college career, O'Brien came to oppose the war, not as a radical activist but as a campaign supporter and volunteer of Eugene McCarthy, a candidate in the 1968 presidential election who was openly against the Vietnam War.

In 1968, the war in Vietnam reached its bloodiest point in terms of American casualties, and the government relied on conscription to recruit more soldiers. Further, graduate school deferments, which exempted students from the draft, were beginning to be discontinued, though O'Brien did not seek out this recourse. Disappointed and worried, O'Brien — like his character "Tim O'Brien" — spent the summer after his graduation working in a meatpacking plant. Unlike his character, however, O'Brien passed his nights pouring out his anxiety and grief onto the typewritten page. He believes it was this experience that sowed the seeds for his later writing career: "I went to my room in the basement and started pounding the typewriter. I did it all summer. My conscience kept telling me not to go, but my whole upbringing told me I had to."

O'Brien hated the war and thought it was wrong, and he often thought about fleeing to Canada. Unlike his fictional alter ego, however, he did not attempt it. Instead, O'Brien yielded to what he has described as a pressure from his community to let go of his convictions against the war and to participate — not only because he had to but also because it was his patriotic duty, a sentiment that he had learned from his community and parents who met in the Navy during World War II. "It's not Worthington I object to, it's the kind of place it is," O'Brien told an interviewer. "The not knowing anything and not tolerating any dissent, that's what gets to me. These people sent me to Vietnam, and they didn't know the first thing about it."

O'Brien ultimately answered the call of the draft on August 14, 1968 and was sent to Army basic training at Fort Lewis, Washington. He was later assigned to advanced individual training and soon found himself in Vietnam,

http://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/t ... -biography

[Ibanez]

O'Brien was drafted for military service in 1968, two weeks after completing his undergraduate degree at Macalester College in St. Paul, Minnesota, where he had enrolled in 1964. He earned a bachelor's degree in government and politics. An excellent student, O'Brien looked forward to attending graduate school and studying political science. During the course of his college career, O'Brien came to oppose the war, not as a radical activist but as a campaign supporter and volunteer of Eugene McCarthy, a candidate in the 1968 presidential election who was openly against the Vietnam War.

In 1968, the war in Vietnam reached its bloodiest point in terms of American casualties, and the government relied on conscription to recruit more soldiers. Further, graduate school deferments, which exempted students from the draft, were beginning to be discontinued, though O'Brien did not seek out this recourse. Disappointed and worried, O'Brien — like his character "Tim O'Brien" — spent the summer after his graduation working in a meatpacking plant. Unlike his character, however, O'Brien passed his nights pouring out his anxiety and grief onto the typewritten page. He believes it was this experience that sowed the seeds for his later writing career: "I went to my room in the basement and started pounding the typewriter. I did it all summer. My conscience kept telling me not to go, but my whole upbringing told me I had to."

O'Brien hated the war and thought it was wrong, and he often thought about fleeing to Canada. Unlike his fictional alter ego, however, he did not attempt it. Instead, O'Brien yielded to what he has described as a pressure from his community to let go of his convictions against the war and to participate — not only because he had to but also because it was his patriotic duty, a sentiment that he had learned from his community and parents who met in the Navy during World War II. "It's not Worthington I object to, it's the kind of place it is," O'Brien told an interviewer. "The not knowing anything and not tolerating any dissent, that's what gets to me. These people sent me to Vietnam, and they didn't know the first thing about it."

O'Brien ultimately answered the call of the draft on August 14, 1968 and was sent to Army basic training at Fort Lewis, Washington. He was later assigned to advanced individual training and soon found himself in Vietnam,

http://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/t ... -biography

It's that damn, homosexual agenda!!!!!!!

[GrizFanStuckInUtah]

O'Brien was drafted for military service in 1968, two weeks after completing his undergraduate degree at Macalester College in St. Paul, Minnesota, where he had enrolled in 1964. He earned a bachelor's degree in government and politics. An excellent student, O'Brien looked forward to attending graduate school and studying political science. During the course of his college career, O'Brien came to oppose the war, not as a radical activist but as a campaign supporter and volunteer of Eugene McCarthy, a candidate in the 1968 presidential election who was openly against the Vietnam War.

In 1968, the war in Vietnam reached its bloodiest point in terms of American casualties, and the government relied on conscription to recruit more soldiers. Further, graduate school deferments, which exempted students from the draft, were beginning to be discontinued, though O'Brien did not seek out this recourse. Disappointed and worried, O'Brien — like his character "Tim O'Brien" — spent the summer after his graduation working in a meatpacking plant. Unlike his character, however, O'Brien passed his nights pouring out his anxiety and grief onto the typewritten page. He believes it was this experience that sowed the seeds for his later writing career: "I went to my room in the basement and started pounding the typewriter. I did it all summer. My conscience kept telling me not to go, but my whole upbringing told me I had to."

O'Brien hated the war and thought it was wrong, and he often thought about fleeing to Canada. Unlike his fictional alter ego, however, he did not attempt it. Instead, O'Brien yielded to what he has described as a pressure from his community to let go of his convictions against the war and to participate — not only because he had to but also because it was his patriotic duty, a sentiment that he had learned from his community and parents who met in the Navy during World War II. "It's not Worthington I object to, it's the kind of place it is," O'Brien told an interviewer. "The not knowing anything and not tolerating any dissent, that's what gets to me. These people sent me to Vietnam, and they didn't know the first thing about it."

O'Brien ultimately answered the call of the draft on August 14, 1968 and was sent to Army basic training at Fort Lewis, Washington. He was later assigned to advanced individual training and soon found himself in Vietnam,

http://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/t ... -biography

I truly have no issue with someone disagreeing with going to war or why we are there. Apathy is the true issue when it comes to war, have an opinion one way or another, at least give a damn. I am convinced that I wouldn't get along with this guy much, he seems like a hypocrite to me. He wants people to tolerate his dissent and then complains when you don't agree with him.

[Chizzang]

The day that every Senator and significant political figure in the system
willingly sends their own sons to the FRONT to fight and die
is that day I change my mind...

Until then ^
ones willingness to die for Uranium rights or backdoor political agendas shouldn't be questioned
Just because Grizfanstuckinutah is a true believer and calls detractors cowards - so what

I would wager grizfanstuckinutah wouldn't send his kid to fight and die for Google...
but in the end its just exactly that

[89Hen]

I would wager grizfanstuckinutah wouldn't send his kid to fight and die for Google...

We know you would.

[Chizzang]

I would wager grizfanstuckinutah wouldn't send his kid to fight and die for Google...

We know you would.

Lockheed Martin cares about your children
As does Exxon Mobil and Royal Dutch Shell



They've always put the needs of the American citizen first (ALWAYS)

[Wedgebuster]

[YoUDeeMan]

The day that every Senator and significant political figure in the system
willingly sends their own sons to the FRONT to fight and die
is that day I change my mind...

Until then ^
ones willingness to die for Uranium rights or backdoor political agendas shouldn't be questioned
Just because Grizfanstuckinutah is a true believer and calls detractors cowards - so what

I would wager grizfanstuckinutah wouldn't send his kid to fight and die for Google...
but in the end its just exactly that

Exactly.

It would be really easy to determine which wars are truly justified...send the Congressmen and their families to fight in the war zones first.

But we know that doesn't happen often, so the other wars are simply crap.

[YoUDeeMan]

We'd have to find out what war you thought is/was for a good reason. My point being, you think Vietnam was a bogus war, so you're going to want the coverage to help expose that. To turn the tide. Maybe you think every war is bogus, so we're not going to agree on this one.

Nice dodge.

FWIW, I don't just want honest coverage to expose bogus wars...I want honest coverage of ALL wars.

Now that we have that out of the way, which war(s) do you think don't (doesn't) deserve honest media coverage?

[89Hen]

We'd have to find out what war you thought is/was for a good reason. My point being, you think Vietnam was a bogus war, so you're going to want the coverage to help expose that. To turn the tide. Maybe you think every war is bogus, so we're not going to agree on this one.

Nice dodge.

FWIW, I don't just want honest coverage to expose bogus wars...I want honest coverage of ALL wars.

Now that we have that out of the way, which war(s) do you think don't (doesn't) deserve honest media coverage?

Could you more carefully word that loaded question?

As I said to kalm, we're not going to agree on this one. I don't want pictures of dead kids on the nightly news.

[CID1990]

The day that every Senator and significant political figure in the system
willingly sends their own sons to the FRONT to fight and die
is that day I change my mind...

Until then ^
ones willingness to die for Uranium rights or backdoor political agendas shouldn't be questioned
Just because Grizfanstuckinutah is a true believer and calls detractors cowards - so what

I would wager grizfanstuckinutah wouldn't send his kid to fight and die for Google...
but in the end its just exactly that

That's a fun old trope

but since less than 1% of Americans actually serve I'd say that's unrealistic (and that's a kind term)

I believe, anecdotally speaking, that in the last three "wars", Congresscritters with children serving have actually been more than 1% of the total number of members of Congress

But I do like the logical bottom of your rabbit hole- that citizenship and the franchise should be dependent on national service

[Chizzang]

The day that every Senator and significant political figure in the system
willingly sends their own sons to the FRONT to fight and die
is that day I change my mind...

Until then ^
ones willingness to die for Uranium rights or backdoor political agendas shouldn't be questioned
Just because Grizfanstuckinutah is a true believer and calls detractors cowards - so what

I would wager grizfanstuckinutah wouldn't send his kid to fight and die for Google...
but in the end its just exactly that

That's a fun old trope

but since less than 1% of Americans actually serve I'd say that's unrealistic (and that's a kind term)

I believe, anecdotally speaking, that in the last three "wars", Congresscritters with children serving have actually been more than 1% of the total number of members of Congress

But I do like the logical bottom of your rabbit hole- that citizenship and the franchise should be dependent on national service

Yeah and 65% of Politicians are lawyers
So by that logic - does that mean that America should consist of 248 Million Lawyers..?
Because that's not irrelevant

I use that dead horse to make a point...
As Dick Cheney tells America with a strait face "he was too busy doing other things" to fight in Vietnam
after that - I know just about everything I need to know

Look over there!!!
An evil Dictator

[YoUDeeMan]

Nice dodge.

FWIW, I don't just want honest coverage to expose bogus wars...I want honest coverage of ALL wars.

Now that we have that out of the way, which war(s) do you think don't (doesn't) deserve honest media coverage?

Could you more carefully word that loaded question?

As I said to kalm, we're not going to agree on this one. I don't want pictures of dead kids on the nightly news.

You must not watch the news...there are pictures, and stories, of shootings and dead people on the news all the time.

News covers the details of the shootings of kids in schools, rapes, kidnappings...you name it. While they may not show the detailed gory details all the time (sometimes they do...with a warning label), the news certainly covers the deaths/rapes of many people each evening.

So, you can play ostrich...or not.

BTW, what damage did the honest Vietnam coverage do?

For years, several administrations tried to pull the wool over America's head. We lost over 50,000 dead, and many more wounded...for what? All the while, we we supposedly fighting for the freedom of the South Vietnamese people...and all of Southeast Asia.

According to our glorious leaders, we were winning the war and fighting a noble cause.

Sound familiar?

We knocked off Qaddafi, and set off a refugee problem. Oh, and the Libyans are still killing themselves...far more than before. We tried version 2.0 in Syria, with even worse results. For what? Yemen is version 3.0. For what?

Yet there are still idiots that believe we are fighting a good fight for the right reasons.

We show refugees without showing the real cause (yeah, that is us). We are arming people who are fighting among themselves and killing civilians.

For what?

Wars should be covered...honestly. We don't come close to honest war coverage these days. We sanitize it and trivialize it...and we lie about why we are involved. We need it that way so that Americans can enjoy their cup of coffee without guilt.

To you, deaths are a cost of business, and your lifestyle, that you don't want to discuss. Polite society.

Sip your tea while the British empire slays the dark people to feed your lifestyle...and then talk about equality and the value of innocent lives (but only the lives you choose to value).

And heavens, don't show our kids what we are doing to other people's kids...showing other's kid's deaths would be way too cruel...to our kids.

[CID1990]

That's a fun old trope

but since less than 1% of Americans actually serve I'd say that's unrealistic (and that's a kind term)

I believe, anecdotally speaking, that in the last three "wars", Congresscritters with children serving have actually been more than 1% of the total number of members of Congress

But I do like the logical bottom of your rabbit hole- that citizenship and the franchise should be dependent on national service

Yeah and 65% of Politicians are lawyers
So by that logic - does that mean that America should consist of 248 Million Lawyers..?
Because that's not irrelevant

I use that dead horse to make a point...
As Dick Cheney tells America with a strait face "he was too busy doing other things" to fight in Vietnam
after that - I know just about everything I need to know

Look over there!!!
An evil Dictator

i wasnt saying there arent leaders who are a little too eager to go off and have the military fight for less than existential (or truly strategic) reasons

I was just pointing out that you made a dumb statement and frankly I had to look back at the top to make sure you weren't houndawg or jelli

[89Hen]

Nailed it.

Try again Cluckster.

[Chizzang]

Yeah and 65% of Politicians are lawyers
So by that logic - does that mean that America should consist of 248 Million Lawyers..?
Because that's not irrelevant

I use that dead horse to make a point...
As Dick Cheney tells America with a strait face "he was too busy doing other things" to fight in Vietnam
after that - I know just about everything I need to know

Look over there!!!
An evil Dictator

i wasnt saying there arent leaders who are a little too eager to go off and have the military fight for less than existential (or truly strategic) reasons

I was just pointing out that you made a dumb statement and frankly I had to look back at the top to make sure you weren't houndawg or jelli

Regardless,
I'm pretty sure we'll be greeted as liberators

[89Hen]

To you, deaths are a cost of business, and your lifestyle, that you don't want to discuss. Polite society.

Sip your tea while the British empire slays the dark people to feed your lifestyle...and then talk about equality and the value of innocent lives (but only the lives you choose to value).

Posting on a football message board that media should show dead bodies more often is really walking the walk Cluck. for you.

[YoUDeeMan]

Nailed it.

Try again Cluckster.

Wait, what is that language on the screen...Ebonics?

Yeah, honest, major media coverage. I am sure that picture was blasted across ABC at the top of the hour, right? And it was followed with a lengthy, honest discussion of the war, right?

Say, what happened to the evening death toll? Oh, wait...those were only our deaths.

Gotcha'.

[YoUDeeMan]

To you, deaths are a cost of business, and your lifestyle, that you don't want to discuss. Polite society.

Sip your tea while the British empire slays the dark people to feed your lifestyle...and then talk about equality and the value of innocent lives (but only the lives you choose to value).

Posting on a football message board that media should show dead bodies more often is really walking the walk Cluck. for you.

Your thinking is a little warped.

You seem to be in support of our wars...but don't want an honest description or depiction of what happening.

I do not support our wars as they are fought...nor am I in favor of our constant stream of lies regarding those wars.

Sunshine versus dishonesty and denial.

Not a hard concept...