The American Electorate

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The American Electorate

Post by Pwns »

So just how bad do things need to get before some people will say that we have become our own worst enemy?

We're in a time when can get more information on our smart phones and tablets in under a minute than people 150 years ago could get in a month, yet we probably don't measure up to 19th century people in terms of being informed voters. And yet people want to say the bigger problem is how candidates get money for 30-second ads on Entertainment Tonight. :lol:

Fifteen years ago many people would've laughed at the idea of Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, and Bernie Sanders being the top 3 most supported candidates in the primaries.

BTW, I'll post this video again, George Carlin reminding his audience why he doesn't bash politicians. :nod:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07w9K2XR3f0
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Re: The American Electorate

Post by Chizzang »

This one is also powerful...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE[/youtube]
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Re: The American Electorate

Post by SDHornet »

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: The American Electorate

Post by Ivytalk »

We get it, Pwns. It's all in your siggy. We're all loudmouthed, poorly educated, scared, hyperventilating azzholes.

Except 89. :coffee:
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Re: The American Electorate

Post by Chizzang »

Ivytalk wrote:We get it, Pwns. It's all in your siggy. We're all loudmouthed, poorly educated, scared, hyperventilating azzholes.

Except 89. :coffee:
Hey,
You need to work on your attitude around here Mister
Don't let the bastards get you down

:geek:

Go fiddle around with your billable hours, it'll make you feel better
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Re: The American Electorate

Post by Pwns »

Ivytalk wrote:We get it, Pwns. It's all in your siggy. We're all loudmouthed, poorly educated, scared, hyperventilating azzholes.

Except 89. :coffee:
A committee of 5 random donks and 5 random conks on this board would pick a better president than all eligible American voters. I feel sure of that.

It is not a compliment I'm paying myself or anyone on this board, because the bar is set pretty low.

Being an informed voter is a matter of will for most people, not immutable abilities.

I happen to think the right to vote comes with actual responsibilities like pretty much every other right that we have. If you don't like that, sue me why don't you. :nod:
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Re: The American Electorate

Post by JohnStOnge »

I've said for many years that there should be poll tests. Poll tests are taboo but we really should have them. I don't think there's really anything in the Constitution to prohibit them either but if you guys want to cite some language you think does it go ahead. If I'm wrong about that I'm wrong.

But even if there really is something in the Constitution to prohibit them we should have them. We should Amend the Constitution if necessary. What's going on in this country now is just beyond the pale. It's pretty darned clear that a bunch of people who have no business voting are allowed to vote.
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Re: The American Electorate

Post by Ivytalk »

Pwns wrote:
Ivytalk wrote:We get it, Pwns. It's all in your siggy. We're all loudmouthed, poorly educated, scared, hyperventilating azzholes.

Except 89. :coffee:
A committee of 5 random donks and 5 random conks on this board would pick a better president than all eligible American voters. I feel sure of that.

It is not a compliment I'm paying myself or anyone on this board, because the bar is set pretty low.

Being an informed voter is a matter of will for most people, not immutable abilities.

I happen to think the right to vote comes with actual responsibilities like pretty much every other right that we have. If you don't like that, sue me why don't you. :nod:
Actually, I agree with you.
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Re: The American Electorate

Post by Ivytalk »

Chizzang wrote:
Ivytalk wrote:We get it, Pwns. It's all in your siggy. We're all loudmouthed, poorly educated, scared, hyperventilating azzholes.

Except 89. :coffee:
Hey,
You need to work on your attitude around here Mister
Don't let the bastards get you down

:geek:

Go fiddle around with your billable hours, it'll make you feel better
Does that make you feel elitist and supercilious? Good. :tothehand:
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Re: The American Electorate

Post by Chizzang »

Ivytalk wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
Hey,
You need to work on your attitude around here Mister
Don't let the bastards get you down

:geek:

Go fiddle around with your billable hours, it'll make you feel better
Does that make you feel elitist and supercilious? Good. :tothehand:
Super-silliness ..?

:shock:

I have a NEW WORD!!!
(this is very exciting)
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Re: The American Electorate

Post by YoUDeeMan »

JohnStOnge wrote:I've said for many years that there should be poll tests. Poll tests are taboo but we really should have them. I don't think there's really anything in the Constitution to prohibit them either but if you guys want to cite some language you think does it go ahead. If I'm wrong about that I'm wrong.

But even if there really is something in the Constitution to prohibit them we should have them. We should Amend the Constitution if necessary. What's going on in this country now is just beyond the pale. It's pretty darned clear that a bunch of people who have no business voting are allowed to vote.
The problem with your idea is that plenty of Liberal intellectuals actually know how the gubmint is supposed to work...they simply disagree and decide to work around it.

You don't think Obama's lawyers know what the Constitution says? Of course they do. They just choose to change the rules by intentionally misinterpreting them.

Having a poll test would be useless. People know pot is illegal in some states...they just refuse to follow the rules.
These signatures have a 500 character limit?

What if I have more personalities than that?
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Re: The American Electorate

Post by YoUDeeMan »

Chizzang wrote:
Ivytalk wrote: Does that make you feel elitist and supercilious? Good. :tothehand:
Super-silliness ..?

:shock:

I have a NEW WORD!!!
(this is very exciting)
:suspicious:

If you haven't heard the word, "supercilious" before today, then your friends are either uneducated or they are not being honest with you.

Hint: it is the $5 word for, "smug." :lol:
These signatures have a 500 character limit?

What if I have more personalities than that?
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Re: RE: Re: The American Electorate

Post by DSUrocks07 »

JohnStOnge wrote:I've said for many years that there should be poll tests. Poll tests are taboo but we really should have them. I don't think there's really anything in the Constitution to prohibit them either but if you guys want to cite some language you think does it go ahead. If I'm wrong about that I'm wrong.

But even if there really is something in the Constitution to prohibit them we should have them. We should Amend the Constitution if necessary. What's going on in this country now is just beyond the pale. It's pretty darned clear that a bunch of people who have no business voting are allowed to vote.
Ironically, the left are the ones who are dead set against poll testing but they are always quick to claim that they are "more educated" than the right.
MEAC, last one out turn off the lights.

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Re: The American Electorate

Post by Ivytalk »

Cluck U wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
Super-silliness ..?

:shock:

I have a NEW WORD!!!
(this is very exciting)
:suspicious:

If you haven't heard the word, "supercilious" before today, then your friends are either uneducated or they are not being honest with you.

Hint: it is the $5 word for, "smug." :lol:
:+1:

Cluck nails it! Frankly, Chizzy, if I didn't know what a master troller you are, I'd question your Ivy street creds.
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Re: The American Electorate

Post by Skjellyfetti »

Not entirely sure we are less informed than when we had large segments of our population that were uneducated and illiterate.

Obviously, literacy and education doesn't mean you're an informed voter... but, it certainly helps. Hard to imagine someone who is illiterate and uneducated being an informed voter.
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Re: The American Electorate

Post by AshevilleApp »

Every generation thinks the world is going to shit compared to the good old days. When exactly were the good old days?
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Re: The American Electorate

Post by kalm »

Pwns wrote:So just how bad do things need to get before some people will say that we have become our own worst enemy?

We're in a time when can get more information on our smart phones and tablets in under a minute than people 150 years ago could get in a month, yet we probably don't measure up to 19th century people in terms of being informed voters. And yet people want to say the bigger problem is how candidates get money for 30-second ads on Entertainment Tonight. :lol:

Fifteen years ago many people would've laughed at the idea of Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, and Bernie Sanders being the top 3 most supported candidates in the primaries.

BTW, I'll post this video again, George Carlin reminding his audience why he doesn't bash politicians. :nod:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07w9K2XR3f0
Carlin said the reason he doesn't vote is that politicians have been bought and paid for a long time ago. :nod: Why did Reagan provide amnesty? I'm sure it had nothing to do his rise to power supported by Central Valley farmers. Why did Clinton sign the CFMA? It's not as if he, the Mrs, and the DNC are cozy with Wall Street. Why are both parties so similar in so many ways and pander to the establishment? Why don't politicians do what they campaign on?
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Re: The American Electorate

Post by kalm »

AshevilleApp wrote:Every generation thinks the world is going to shit compared to the good old days. When exactly were the good old days?
Very true on the first sentence.

Regarding the "good old days" as I've mentioned many times, I think Strauss and Howe nailed this exact point in the Fourth Turning. Periods of high, awakening, unraveling, and crisis are cyclical and like clockwork and almost without exception going back to War of the Roses. That places the post war through the mid 60's as the last "good old days" and means we're now on the home stretch of a crisis period. 80 some years ago was a generation raising the exact same concerns.

http://www.fourthturning.com/
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Re: The American Electorate

Post by kalm »

Pwns wrote:So just how bad do things need to get before some people will say that we have become our own worst enemy?

We're in a time when can get more information on our smart phones and tablets in under a minute than people 150 years ago could get in a month, yet we probably don't measure up to 19th century people in terms of being informed voters. And yet people want to say the bigger problem is how candidates get money for 30-second ads on Entertainment Tonight. :lol:

Fifteen years ago many people would've laughed at the idea of Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, and Bernie Sanders being the top 3 most supported candidates in the primaries.

BTW, I'll post this video again, George Carlin reminding his audience why he doesn't bash politicians. :nod:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07w9K2XR3f0
Another interesting theory.

(I like this topic in case you didn't notice :mrgreen: )
The gas station attendant who wants to use his mind isn't going to waste his time on international affairs, because that's useless; he can't do anything about it anyhow, and he might learn unpleasant things and even get into trouble. So he might as well do it where it's fun, and not threatening -- professional football or basketball or something like that. But the skills are being used and the understanding is there and the intelligence is there. One of the functions that things like professional sports play, in our society and others, is to offer an area to deflect people's attention from things that matter, so that the people in power can do what matters without public interference.

QUESTION: I asked a while ago whether people are inhibited by the aura of expertise. Can one turn this around -- are experts and intellectuals afraid of people who could apply the intelligence of sport to their own areas of competency in foreign affairs, social sciences, and so on?

CHOMSKY: I suspect that this is rather common. Those areas of inquiry that have to do with problems of immediate human concern do not happen to be particularly profound or inaccessible to the ordinary person lacking any special training who takes the trouble to learn something about them. Commentary on public affairs in the mainstream literature is often shallow and uninformed. Everyone who writes and speaks about these matters knows how much you can get away with as long as you keep close to received doctrine. I'm sure just about everyone exploits these privileges. I know I do. When I refer to Nazi crimes or Soviet atrocities, for example, I know that I will not be called upon to back up what I say, but a detailed scholarly apparatus is necessary if I say anything critical about the practice of one of the Holy States: the United States itself, or Israel, since it was enshrined by the intelligentsia after its 1967 victory. This freedom from the requirements of evidence or even rationality is quite a convenience, as any informed reader of the journals of public opinion, or even much of the scholarly literature, will quickly discover. It makes life easy, and permits expression of a good deal of nonsense or ignorant bias with impunity, also sheer slander. Evidence is unnecessary, argument beside the point. Thus a standard charge against American dissidents or even American liberals -- I've cited quite a few cases in print and have collected many others -- is that they claim that the United States is the sole source of evil in the world or other similar idiocies; the convention is that such charges are entirely legitimate when the target is someone who does not march in the appropriate parades, and they are therefore produced without even a pretense of evidence. Adherence to the party line confers the right to act in ways that would properly be regarded as scandalous on the part of any critic of received orthodoxies. Too much public awareness might lead to a demand that standards of integrity should be met, which would certainly save a lot of forests from destruction, and would send many a reputation tumbling.


The right to lie in the service of power is guarded with considerable vigor and passion. This becomes evident whenever anyone takes the trouble to demonstrate that charges against some official enemy are inaccurate or, sometimes, pure invention. The immediate reaction among the commissars is that the person is an apologist for the real crimes of official enemies. The case of Cambodia is a striking example. That the Khmer Rouge were guilty of gruesome atrocities was doubted by no one, apart from a few marginal Maoist sects. It is also true, and easily documented, that Western propaganda seized upon these crimes with great relish, exploiting them to provide a retrospective justification for Western atrocities, and since standards are nonexistent in such a noble cause, they also produced a record of fabrication and deceit that is quite remarkable. Demonstration of this fact, and fact it is, elicited enormous outrage, along with a stream of new and quite spectacular lies, as Edward Herman and I, among others, have documented. The point is that the right to lie in the service of the state was being challenged, and that is an unspeakable crime. Similarly, anyone who points out that some charge against Cuba, Nicaragua, Vietnam, or some other official enemy is dubious or false will immediately be labeled an apologist for real or alleged crimes, a useful technique to ensure that rational standards will not be imposed on the commissars and that there will be no impediment to their loyal service to power. The critic typically has little access to the media, and the personal consequences for the critic are sufficiently annoying to deter many from taking this course, particularly because some journals -- the New Republic, for example -- sink to the ultimate level of dishonesty and cowardice, regularly refusing to permit even the right of response to slanders they publish. Hence the sacred right to lie is likely to be preserved without too serious a threat. But matters might be different if unreliable sectors of the public were admitted into the arena of discussion and debate.

The aura of alleged expertise also provides a way for the indoctrination system to provide its services to power while maintaining a useful image of indifference and objectivity. The media, for example, can turn to academic experts to provide the perspective that is required by the centers of power, and the university system is sufficiently obedient to external power so that appropriate experts will generally be available to lend the prestige of scholarship to the narrow range of opinion permitted broad expression. Or when this method fails -- as in the current case of Latin America, for example, or in the emerging discipline of terrorology -- a new category of "experts" can be established who can be trusted to provide the approved opinions that the media cannot express directly without abandoning the pretense of objectivity that serves to legitimate their propaganda function. I've documented many examples, as have others.

The guild structure of the professions concerned with public affairs also helps to preserve doctrinal purity. In fact, it is guarded with much diligence. My own personal experience is perhaps relevant. As I mentioned earlier, I do not have the usual professional credentials in any field, and my own work has ranged fairly widely. Some years ago, for example, I did some work in mathematical linguistics and automata theory, and occasionally gave invited lectures at mathematics or engineering colloquia. No one would have dreamed of challenging my credentials to speak on these topics -- which were zero, as everyone knew; that would have been laughable. The participants were concerned with what I had to say, not my right to say it. But when I speak, say, about international affairs, I'm constantly challenged to present the credentials that authorize me to enter this august arena, in the United States, at least -- elsewhere not. It's a fair generalization, I think, that the more a discipline has intellectual substance, the less it has to protect itself from scrutiny, by means of a guild structure. The consequences with regard to your question are pretty obvious.
http://www.alternet.org/noam-chomsky-wh ... ld-affairs
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Re: The American Electorate

Post by AshevilleApp »

kalm wrote:
AshevilleApp wrote:Every generation thinks the world is going to **** compared to the good old days. When exactly were the good old days?
Very true on the first sentence.

Regarding the "good old days" as I've mentioned many times, I think Strauss and Howe nailed this exact point in the Fourth Turning. Periods of high, awakening, unraveling, and crisis are cyclical and like clockwork and almost without exception going back to War of the Roses. That places the post war through the mid 60's as the last "good old days" and means we're now on the home stretch of a crisis period. 80 some years ago was a generation raising the exact same concerns.

http://www.fourthturning.com/
I'll read the link later, but I tend to agree (maybe). We had an economic boom, at least in some part due to the fact that the physical plants of Europe and Japan were destroyed. We had a near monopoly on our products. Of course it wasn't that great for a significant portion of our populace. If it were, than the Civil Rights movement wouldn't have occurred. And we don't even consider the advances in health care since that time. My mom used to talk about worrying about polio during the summer months as my siblings went about their routines. The Salk vaccine pretty much took care of that.

I wish I could find the editorial I read a few years back from the mid to late 1930's. It basically detailed how the younger generation was soft, and wouldn't be able to handle the tough times that they had endured in the Great War. That younger generation of course is now considered by some as "The Greatest Generation".
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Re: The American Electorate

Post by Chizzang »

Ivytalk wrote:
Cluck U wrote:
:suspicious:

If you haven't heard the word, "supercilious" before today, then your friends are either uneducated or they are not being honest with you.

Hint: it is the $5 word for, "smug." :lol:
:+1:

Cluck nails it! Frankly, Chizzy, if I didn't know what a master troller you are, I'd question your Ivy street creds.
My credentials have been exposed as (at best) suspect around here before...

:ohno:

But I've never had my Smug Prick Attitude questioned
It's my defining characteristic - my default nature - the essence of my core
It is WHO I AM...

And also there's this Dog who reminded me of you...

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Re: The American Electorate

Post by Ivytalk »

Chizzang wrote:
Ivytalk wrote: :+1:

Cluck nails it! Frankly, Chizzy, if I didn't know what a master troller you are, I'd question your Ivy street creds.
My credentials have been exposed as (at best) suspect around here before...

:ohno:

But I've never had my Smug Prick Attitude questioned
It's my defining characteristic - my default nature - the essence of my core
It is WHO I AM...

And also there's this Dog who reminded me of you...

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Smart pooch! :thumb:
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