http://www.salon.com/2011/12/31/progres ... fallacies/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Then there’s the full-scale sacrifice of intellectual honesty and political independence at the altar of tongue-wagging partisan loyalty. The very same people who in 2004 wildly cheered John Kerry — husband of the billionaire heiress-widow Teresa Heinz Kerry — spent all of 2008 mocking John McCain’s wealthy life courtesy of his millionaire heiress wife and will spend 2012 depicting Mitt Romney’s wealth as proof of his insularity; conversely, the same people who relentlessly mocked Kerry in 2004 as a kept girly-man and gigolo for living off his wife’s wealth spent 2008 venerating McCain as the Paragon of Manly Honor.
The parallel reality — the undeniable fact — is that all of these listed heinous views and actions from Barack Obama have been vehemently opposed and condemned by Ron Paul: and among the major GOP candidates, only by Ron Paul. For that reason, Paul’s candidacy forces progressives to face the hideous positions and actions of their candidate, of the person they want to empower for another four years. If Paul were not in the race or were not receiving attention, none of these issues would receive any attention because all the other major GOP candidates either agree with Obama on these matters or hold even worse views.
Progressives would feel much better about themselves, their Party and their candidate if they only had to oppose, say, Rick Perry or Michele Bachmann. That’s because the standard GOP candidate agrees with Obama on many of these issues and is even worse on these others, so progressives can feel good about themselves for supporting Obama: his right-wing opponent is a warmonger, a servant to Wall Street, a neocon, a devotee of harsh and racist criminal justice policies, etc. etc. Paul scrambles the comfortable ideological and partisan categories and forces progressives to confront and account for the policies they are working to protect. His nomination would mean that it is the Republican candidate — not the Democrat — who would be the anti-war, pro-due-process, pro-transparency, anti-Fed, anti-Wall-Street-bailout, anti-Drug-War advocate
Still, for better or worse, Paul — alone among the national figures in both parties — is able and willing to advocate views that Americans urgently need to hear. That he is doing so within the Republican Party makes it all the more significant. This is why Paul has been the chosen ally of key liberal House members such as Alan Grayson (on Fed transparency and corruption), Barney Frank (to arrest the excesses of the Drug War) and Dennis Kucinich (on a wide array of foreign policy and civil liberties issues).
Ron Paul and Progressives
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kalm
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Ron Paul and Progressives
Glenn Greenwald flat out, unequivacolly, undeniably nails it here:

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TwinTownBisonFan
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Re: Ron Paul and Progressives
He's also a bigot and a homophobe, and the kind of guy who will ensure the GOP base stays home on election day.
North Dakota State University Bison 2011 and 2012 National Champions


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kalm
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Re: Ron Paul and Progressives
You are making Greenwalds point beautifully.TwinTownBisonFan wrote:He's also a bigot and a homophobe, and the kind of guy who will ensure the GOP base stays home on election day.
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Seahawks08
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Re: Ron Paul and Progressives
Wow that was one of the best analysis of Ron Paul I've ever read. Kudos to you for finding it.


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Re: Ron Paul and Progressives
Kudos to your siggy and avatar.Seahawks08 wrote:Wow that was one of the best analysis of Ron Paul I've ever read. Kudos to you for finding it.![]()
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OL FU
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Re: Ron Paul and Progressives
He also wants to reduce the size of the federal government its post revolutionary war size. I am sure progressives don't like that idea. 
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Re: Ron Paul and Progressives
Have any proof to back up your slanderous lies?TwinTownBisonFan wrote:He's also a bigot and a homophobe
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kalm
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Re: Ron Paul and Progressives
And Obama was going to...OL FU wrote:He also wants to reduce the size of the federal government its post revolutionary war size. I am sure progressives don't like that idea.
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grizzaholic
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Re: Ron Paul and Progressives
I like Paul. Some of his ideas are a little out there, but can you honestly say that there is a candidate out there that doesn't have a few crazy things? He will get my vote again, just like last time.
"What I'm saying is: You might have taken care of your wolf problem, but everyone around town is going to think of you as the crazy son of a bitch who bought land mines to get rid of wolves."
Justin Halpern
Justin Halpern
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Seahawks08
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Re: Ron Paul and Progressives
Why thank you!Kudos to your siggy and avatar.
And for the record, I find fluffy to be one of today's best comedians.

Ron Paul and Progressives
Oh bullshit, give me a break.TwinTownBisonFan wrote:He's also a bigot and a homophobe, and the kind of guy who will ensure the GOP base stays home on election day.

- SDHornet
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Re: Ron Paul and Progressives
Yeah he is pretty funny, I saw him live up in Santa Rosa and Vegas. His shirts are hilarious too. Here is one of my favorites:Seahawks08 wrote:Why thank you!Kudos to your siggy and avatar.![]()
And for the record, I find fluffy to be one of today's best comedians.

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TwinTownBisonFan
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Re: Ron Paul and Progressives
The newsletters from 1995 for one.bobbythekidd wrote:Have any proof to back up your slanderous lies?TwinTownBisonFan wrote:He's also a bigot and a homophobe
He can claim whatever the hell he wants - that shit went out with his name on it. prepared and paid for by his campaign.
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- AZGrizFan
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Re: Ron Paul and Progressives
And Obama cavorted with known domestic terrorists. Didn't stop HIM from getting elected now, did it?TwinTownBisonFan wrote:The newsletters from 1995 for one.bobbythekidd wrote: Have any proof to back up your slanderous lies?
He can claim whatever the hell he wants - that shit went out with his name on it. prepared and paid for by his campaign.
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12

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Re: Ron Paul and Progressives
....and Jeremiah Wright.
Celebrate Diversity.*
*of appearance only. Restrictions apply.
*of appearance only. Restrictions apply.
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kalm
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Re: Ron Paul and Progressives
And again proving Greenwald's point. These are the type of items that the media will focus on ad nauseum and partisans will hold to and they pale in importance to things like foreign policy and the drug war - both of which Paul is clearly more progressive on than Obama.AZGrizFan wrote:And Obama cavorted with known domestic terrorists. Didn't stop HIM from getting elected now, did it?TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
The newsletters from 1995 for one.
He can claim whatever the hell he wants - that shit went out with his name on it. prepared and paid for by his campaign.
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OL FU
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Re: Ron Paul and Progressives
was going to what?kalm wrote:And Obama was going to...OL FU wrote:He also wants to reduce the size of the federal government its post revolutionary war size. I am sure progressives don't like that idea.
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kalm
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Re: Ron Paul and Progressives
Kind of a wrinkle on the conk "change" meme, so name it.OL FU wrote:was going to what?kalm wrote:
And Obama was going to...
Obviously there's a difference between campaign rhetoric and real actions and every president is hamstrung to a certain extent by the system just like Paul would be as president. But when Obama took office there were some real opportunities for meaningful change and he has done very little in some of the key areas. He is clearly not a progressive president.
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OL FU
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Re: Ron Paul and Progressives
kalm wrote:Kind of a wrinkle on the conk "change" meme, so name it.OL FU wrote:
was going to what?![]()
Obviously there's a difference between campaign rhetoric and real actions and every president is hamstrung to a certain extent by the system just like Paul would be as president. But when Obama took office there were some real opportunities for meaningful change and he has done very little in some of the key areas. He is clearly not a progressive president.
Actually I think he is a progressive president. I think he had no idea how to exercise executive authority. Most things accomplished were marketed by Obama, but drafted by congress which loaded everything up with their own stupid pork and perks so that there was little meaningful coherence in the laws passed. Therefore, bad healthcare law, bad banking regulation law, bad stimulus bill (even if you believe those things were in the right direction they were all done wrong). While I disagree with most of what Obama wanted to do, he had the opportunity to change a lot and he wasted it. So as I said, I think he is progressive, he was just ineffectual.
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kalm
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Re: Ron Paul and Progressives
A progressive president would never have appointed Geithner and would have vocally sided with Paul, Kucinich, Sanders, and co. on auditing the fed and Freddie and Fannie.OL FU wrote:kalm wrote:
Kind of a wrinkle on the conk "change" meme, so name it.![]()
Obviously there's a difference between campaign rhetoric and real actions and every president is hamstrung to a certain extent by the system just like Paul would be as president. But when Obama took office there were some real opportunities for meaningful change and he has done very little in some of the key areas. He is clearly not a progressive president.
Actually I think he is a progressive president. I think he had no idea how to exercise executive authority. Most things accomplished were marketed by Obama, but drafted by congress which loaded everything up with their own stupid pork and perks so that there was little meaningful coherence in the laws passed. Therefore, bad healthcare law, bad banking regulation law, bad stimulus bill (even if you believe those things were in the right direction they were all done wrong). While I disagree with most of what Obama wanted to do, he had the opportunity to change a lot and he wasted it. So as I said, I think he is progressive, he was just ineffectual.
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OL FU
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Re: Ron Paul and Progressives
kalm wrote:A progressive president would never have appointed Geithner and would have vocally sided with Paul, Kucinich, Sanders, and co. on auditing the fed and Freddie and Fannie.OL FU wrote:
Actually I think he is a progressive president. I think he had no idea how to exercise executive authority. Most things accomplished were marketed by Obama, but drafted by congress which loaded everything up with their own stupid pork and perks so that there was little meaningful coherence in the laws passed. Therefore, bad healthcare law, bad banking regulation law, bad stimulus bill (even if you believe those things were in the right direction they were all done wrong). While I disagree with most of what Obama wanted to do, he had the opportunity to change a lot and he wasted it. So as I said, I think he is progressive, he was just ineffectual.
Not sure I agree but then there are different ways of looking at what is progressive. Today's progressives are not the Teddy Roosevelt progressives no matter what Obama says. Todays progressives have to find a way to fund their initiaties. One of the best ways is corporatism. TEddy would roll over in his grave.
- AZGrizFan
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Re: Ron Paul and Progressives
To be clear: I am not holding on to them...it's TTBF who seems to have a one-way memory when it comes to things like this.kalm wrote:And again proving Greenwald's point. These are the type of items that the media will focus on ad nauseum and partisans will hold to and they pale in importance to things like foreign policy and the drug war - both of which Paul is clearly more progressive on than Obama.AZGrizFan wrote:
And Obama cavorted with known domestic terrorists. Didn't stop HIM from getting elected now, did it?
"Ah fuck. You are right." KYJelly, 11/6/12
"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam." Barack Obama, 9/25/12

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kalm
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Re: Ron Paul and Progressives
I think you're confusing progressives with Democrats a little, but I get your point. Once in power, both Roosevelts took on the monied interests in more than just occasional rhetoric around election time.OL FU wrote:kalm wrote:
A progressive president would never have appointed Geithner and would have vocally sided with Paul, Kucinich, Sanders, and co. on auditing the fed and Freddie and Fannie.
Not sure I agree but then there are different ways of looking at what is progressive. Today's progressives are not the Teddy Roosevelt progressives no matter what Obama says. Todays progressives have to find a way to fund their initiaties. One of the best ways is corporatism. TEddy would roll over in his grave.
Re: Ron Paul and Progressives
A Ron Paul administration would be a veto factory (based on his voting record to date) which may or may not be a good thing. It would secure our government's reputation for complete gridlock - Paul has some good ideas, but he's way out there on some others. I don't think he's electable both for his age and some of his more extreme views....
Ron Paul and Progressives
I like a lot of his basic principles.....not sure that we need to withdraw from NATO or get rid of quite as many government agencies as he espouses, but I think he is much more on track than anyone else at this point. Time to stop being the world's police force, giving out shitloads of unaccountable foreign aide, etc. and start worrying about our own shit.



