Happy 42nd, Roe vs Wade!!! Reproductive Freedom Forever!!!

[Ibanez]

Murder..?
So you're the decider when life begins (interesting perspective) and meets my previous posts observation
Where I mention something about coming from a place where you think you know everything

I am on record in numerous previous threads saying that we dont know where the line is, and that from all of the evidence I can see so far, 20 weeks is something I could live with. Thats hardly playing the role of decider, but with the visceral response that usually comes from you when I talk about abortion, I can only conclude that youre conflicted over the cop out position you take on it.... one that is at odds with not only morality, but also science

But thats what happens when we're in the business of justifying killing living humans before they are born, Chitz. You start running into these very inconvenient questions of where life begins.

There is evidence of fetal pain after 20 weeks. Thats all we know right now. I am comfortable legislating on the science we know. Im also comfortable erring on the side of caution and simply outlawing abortion as a method of birth control.

I don't get mad and accuse you or others of playing smartest guy in the room because my conscience in my own position and opinion is perfectly clear and unhindered by the moral gymnastics you must have to execute to cop out to, "we dont know where life begins, therefore we shouldnt bother ourselves with it"

This.

[89Hen]

I am on record in numerous previous threads saying that we dont know where the line is, and that from all of the evidence I can see so far, 20 weeks is something I could live with. Thats hardly playing the role of decider, but with the visceral response that usually comes from you when I talk about abortion, I can only conclude that youre conflicted over the cop out position you take on it.... one that is at odds with not only morality, but also science

But thats what happens when we're in the business of justifying killing living humans before they are born, Chitz. You start running into these very inconvenient questions of where life begins.

There is evidence of fetal pain after 20 weeks. Thats all we know right now. I am comfortable legislating on the science we know. Im also comfortable erring on the side of caution and simply outlawing abortion as a method of birth control.

I don't get mad and accuse you or others of playing smartest guy in the room because my conscience in my own position and opinion is perfectly clear and unhindered by the moral gymnastics you must have to execute to cop out to, "we dont know where life begins, therefore we shouldnt bother ourselves with it"

This.

Wow, I missed that before. Nice job by CID.

[LeadBolt]

Banning abortion from somewhere less than 20 weeks to not at all, without a medical or moral (Rape, incest) reason for the procedure, would seem to be reasonable.

[Skjellyfetti]

Banning abortion from somewhere less than 20 weeks to not at all, without a medical or moral (Rape, incest) reason for the procedure, would seem to be reasonable.

But, what exactly does "banning" entail?

Treat it the same as murder? Misdemeanor? Citation?

Will all miscarriages need to be looked at as potential abortions? (There are A LOT of miscarriages every year... and it would be very difficult to distinguish between legit miscarriages and homemade abortions. Autopsies, homicide investigations, etc. for all of them?)

[LeadBolt]

Banning abortion from somewhere less than 20 weeks to not at all, without a medical or moral (Rape, incest) reason for the procedure, would seem to be reasonable.

But, what exactly does "banning" entail?

Treat it the same as murder? Misdemeanor? Citation?

Will all miscarriages need to be looked at as potential abortions? (There are A LOT of miscarriages every year... and it would be very difficult to distinguish between legit miscarriages and homemade abortions. Autopsies, homicide investigations, etc. for all of them?)

Provide for summary postpartum abortion for any and all App State graduates who are now or ever have worked in the Commonwealth of Virginia in the excavation of historical sites, with no consequence to those who took part in the procedure.

[Cap'n Cat]

[Gil Dobie]

Being a firm believer that science proves life begins at conception, this amendment is about a Women's Choice, which I also firmly believe in. Too many political jack wagons and plain old jack wagons have truned this amendment into a pissing match. I suppose until an absolute way to prevent unwanted conception is found, the jack wagons will continue to piss.

[Chizzang]

Murder..?
So you're the decider when life begins (interesting perspective) and meets my previous posts observation
Where I mention something about coming from a place where you think you know everything

I am on record in numerous previous threads saying that we dont know where the line is, and that from all of the evidence I can see so far, 20 weeks is something I could live with. Thats hardly playing the role of decider, but with the visceral response that usually comes from you when I talk about abortion, I can only conclude that youre conflicted over the cop out position you take on it.... one that is at odds with not only morality, but also science

But thats what happens when we're in the business of justifying killing living humans before they are born, Chitz. You start running into these very inconvenient questions of where life begins.

There is evidence of fetal pain after 20 weeks. Thats all we know right now. I am comfortable legislating on the science we know. Im also comfortable erring on the side of caution and simply outlawing abortion as a method of birth control.

I don't get mad and accuse you or others of playing smartest guy in the room because my conscience in my own position and opinion is perfectly clear and unhindered by the moral gymnastics you must have to execute to cop out to, "we dont know where life begins, therefore we shouldnt bother ourselves with it"

Visceral..?
please with the drama already you sound like Dback
You're the one with the sentence that reads: "Then its Murder:Period..."
That's far more visceral than me asking who appointed you the decider

You make huge assumptions because I simply disagree where the government should intersect in this debate
You want the government to defend your opinion

The moral gymnastics doesn't bother me at all
because I'm not god and I honestly don't know the answer
But I do think making abortion illegal is completely unreasonable with so many extraneous factors involved

A society moving in that direction is in serious danger...

and this:
Which is hilarious

[CID1990]

I am on record in numerous previous threads saying that we dont know where the line is, and that from all of the evidence I can see so far, 20 weeks is something I could live with. Thats hardly playing the role of decider, but with the visceral response that usually comes from you when I talk about abortion, I can only conclude that youre conflicted over the cop out position you take on it.... one that is at odds with not only morality, but also science

But thats what happens when we're in the business of justifying killing living humans before they are born, Chitz. You start running into these very inconvenient questions of where life begins.

There is evidence of fetal pain after 20 weeks. Thats all we know right now. I am comfortable legislating on the science we know. Im also comfortable erring on the side of caution and simply outlawing abortion as a method of birth control.

I don't get mad and accuse you or others of playing smartest guy in the room because my conscience in my own position and opinion is perfectly clear and unhindered by the moral gymnastics you must have to execute to cop out to, "we dont know where life begins, therefore we shouldnt bother ourselves with it"

Visceral..?
please with the drama already you sound like Dback
You're the one with the sentence that reads: "Then its Murder:Period..."
That's far more visceral than me asking who appointed you the decider

You make huge assumptions because I simply disagree where the government should intersect in this debate
You want the government to defend your opinion

The moral gymnastics doesn't bother me at all
because I'm not god and I honestly don't know the answer
But I do think making abortion illegal is completely unreasonable with so many extraneous factors involved

A society moving in that direction is in serious danger...

and this:
Which is hilarious

The government already protects my opinion when it comes to murder, killing human beings, ending the innocent, WHATEVER you or me or anybody else wants to call it.

I don't oppose it from religious grounds and I don't oppose it because I am the neo-liberal populist's boogeyman who just hates women, either.

And it is a visceral reaction. You get more hot and bothered over it than you do in discussions about religious indoctrination..... wait.... probably a connection there. You might want to disconnect them.

[Chizzang]

T-man... Oops I mean CID
you've already made the point that your opinion isn't religious - which of course makes it more valid because that means it comes from a place of thoughtfulness and contemplation - instead of brainwashing and ideological lock down

Anybody who argues abortion from a religious perspective
is immediately subject to the legitimate response of: Well my religion does allow abortion...
Freedom of religion - see ya later nice knowing you (debate over)

Beyond that I think your opinion is archaic and antiquated and is the wrong direction for a free society
Also Note:
Any idea that the hyper-Religious ultra Self Righteous adore
Really should make any reasonable person nervous

Just as a side note

[D1B]

I am on record in numerous previous threads saying that we dont know where the line is, and that from all of the evidence I can see so far, 20 weeks is something I could live with. Thats hardly playing the role of decider, but with the visceral response that usually comes from you when I talk about abortion, I can only conclude that youre conflicted over the cop out position you take on it.... one that is at odds with not only morality, but also science

But thats what happens when we're in the business of justifying killing living humans before they are born, Chitz. You start running into these very inconvenient questions of where life begins.

There is evidence of fetal pain after 20 weeks. Thats all we know right now. I am comfortable legislating on the science we know. Im also comfortable erring on the side of caution and simply outlawing abortion as a method of birth control.

I don't get mad and accuse you or others of playing smartest guy in the room because my conscience in my own position and opinion is perfectly clear and unhindered by the moral gymnastics you must have to execute to cop out to, "we dont know where life begins, therefore we shouldnt bother ourselves with it"

This.

Not really. It's boilerplate conk/catholic black and white fallacious logic. Sounds real nice but it's a cowardly oversimplication of the issue and betrays a cynical refusal to recognize the fundamental rights of women, their historical brutal repression by people like him and 89Hens religion, high rates of rape and incest and the poverty and suffering that can result from child bearing.

As Cleets more intelligently, eloquently and bravely posited, access to safe abortion services is vital to a free society.

[CID1990]

This.

Not really. It's boilerplate conk/catholic black and white fallacious logic. Sounds real nice but it's a cowardly oversimplication of the issue and betrays a cynical refusal to recognize the fundamental rights of women, their historical brutal repression by people like him and 89Hens religion, high rates of rape and incest and the poverty and suffering that can result from child bearing.

As Cleets more intelligently, eloquently and bravely posited, access to safe abortion services is vital to a free society.

Actually, I (and millions of women who share the same sentiment) am a champion of womens' rights and come from a long proud line of frontier women and suffragettes. I just also consider the rights of all human neings and recognize that one person's right to choice does not necessarily trump another's right to life. Especially one who is developed enough to hear their mother's heartbeat or feel pain.

I might be more sympathetic with you and Cleetoris if it wasn't for the inconvenient fact that the militant pro abortion set wasn't in favor of abortion after 20 or so weeks of gestation. But since they are for abortion without limits, I oppose them.

It really is black or white to me- you are correct.

[Cap'n Cat]

[D1B]

Not really. It's boilerplate conk/catholic black and white fallacious logic. Sounds real nice but it's a cowardly oversimplication of the issue and betrays a cynical refusal to recognize the fundamental rights of women, their historical brutal repression by people like him and 89Hens religion, high rates of rape and incest and the poverty and suffering that can result from child bearing.

As Cleets more intelligently, eloquently and bravely posited, access to safe abortion services is vital to a free society.

Actually, I (and millions of women who share the same sentiment) am a champion of womens' rights and come from a long proud line of frontier women and suffragettes. I just also consider the rights of all human neings and recognize that one person's right to choice does not necessarily trump another's right to life. Especially one who is developed enough to hear their mother's heartbeat or feel pain.

I might be more sympathetic with you and Cleetoris if it wasn't for the inconvenient fact that the militant pro abortion set wasn't in favor of abortion after 20 or so weeks of gestation. But since they are for abortion without limits, I oppose them.

It really is black or white to me- you are correct.

99% of those women who you say agree with you would have an abortion in a medical crisis or was the victim of sexual assault, and be very glad such services exist. I know you do too.

You're a sharp guy, don't let the "militant pro abortion" bogeymen scare you into lazy thinking.

[Cap'n Cat]

[CID1990]

Actually, I (and millions of women who share the same sentiment) am a champion of womens' rights and come from a long proud line of frontier women and suffragettes. I just also consider the rights of all human neings and recognize that one person's right to choice does not necessarily trump another's right to life. Especially one who is developed enough to hear their mother's heartbeat or feel pain.

I might be more sympathetic with you and Cleetoris if it wasn't for the inconvenient fact that the militant pro abortion set wasn't in favor of abortion after 20 or so weeks of gestation. But since they are for abortion without limits, I oppose them.

It really is black or white to me- you are correct.

99% of those women who you say agree with you would have an abortion in a medical crisis or was the victim of sexual assault, and be very glad such services exist. I know you do too.

You're a sharp guy, don't let the "militant pro abortion" bogeymen scare you into lazy thinking.

I am also previously on record saying that I do not oppose abortion in cases of assault or incest or when the fetus places the mother in jeopardy of her life or even her good health. I dont think my position is unreasonable at all. It is certainly a compromise position and one that few abortionists or religious zealots would make.

It is telling that I would be ranked right in there with the zealots without a thought.

I simply oppose abortion when it is a convenience. And the vast majority of abortions in this country are nothing more than a method of elective birth control.

[D1B]

99% of those women who you say agree with you would have an abortion in a medical crisis or was the victim of sexual assault, and be very glad such services exist. I know you do too.

You're a sharp guy, don't let the "militant pro abortion" bogeymen scare you into lazy thinking.

I am also previously on record saying that I do not oppose abortion in cases of assault or incest or when the fetus places the mother in jeopardy of her life or even her good health. I dont think my position is unreasonable at all. It is certainly a compromise position and one that few abortionists or religious zealots would make.

It is telling that I would be ranked right in there with the zealots without a thought.

I simply oppose abortion when it is a convenience. And the vast majority of abortions in this country are nothing more than a method of elective birth control.

Easy for you, as a man, to say it's nothing but a convenience.

Your abortion myths are convenient.

[CID1990]

I am also previously on record saying that I do not oppose abortion in cases of assault or incest or when the fetus places the mother in jeopardy of her life or even her good health. I dont think my position is unreasonable at all. It is certainly a compromise position and one that few abortionists or religious zealots would make.

It is telling that I would be ranked right in there with the zealots without a thought.

I simply oppose abortion when it is a convenience. And the vast majority of abortions in this country are nothing more than a method of elective birth control.

Easy for you, as a man, to say it's nothing but a convenience.

Your abortion myths are convenient.

What myths are you referring to? That the vast majority of abortions in the US do not fall into the rape/incest/mother's health categories?

I'm also perfectly willing to concede to elective abortions before 20 weeks of gestation UNTIL science shows us that the fetus is developed enough to feel pain at an earlier period.

There are great numbers of extremists on both sides of this debate- the religious ones who oppose it from day one, and the people who would allow it right up until the baby is born. Some of that crowd considers it ok to kill a fetus at 9 months as long as it has not fully exited the mother.

I dont fall into either of those groups. Mine is the compromise position and it is also the only one that strikes a balance between women's health and the right to life for the unborn.

[Pwns]

Which is hilarious

^This is a mind-numbingly stupid rhetorical meme by the pro-abortion. No one is trying to take the right to life of teachers or immigrants, and even most anti-gay types don't want LGBT folks to have no right to life. Sorry, but it is.

[Cap'n Cat]

Which is hilarious

^This is a mind-numbingly stupid rhetorical meme by the pro-abortion. No one is trying to take the right to life of teachers or immigrants, and even most anti-gay types don't want LGBT folks to have no right to life. Sorry, but it is.

Sorry, you're wrong. Not taking the "life" of anything. Blob of tissue inside a living, breathing, tax-paying, voting woman's body. SHE makes decisions about it, not Lindsey Graham, you, Tbag and Baldy.

[Chizzang]

All subtleties and 20 week hard lines and what might or might not be.... debatable forever
In the end we have to decide what kind of society we want to live in
All freedoms to some degree get abused (see: Gun violence)

Recently:
A toddler got her head blown off by her 5 year old brother - and - nobody went to jail

And yet we've got people in this country enthusiastically lining up to make criminals out of women
who they don't even know and have absolutely no clue what the situation is - medically or otherwise

the whole thing is so damn strange I can hardly make sense of it...

[CID1990]

All subtleties and 20 week hard lines and what might or might not be.... debatable forever
In the end we have to decide what kind of society we want to live in
All freedoms to some degree get abused (see: Gun violence)

Recently:
A toddler got her head blown off by her 5 year old brother - and - nobody went to jail

And yet we've got people in this country enthusiastically lining up to make criminals out of women
who they don't even know and have absolutely no clue what the situation is - medically or otherwise

the whole thing is so damn strange I can hardly make sense of it...

I get your analogy, but it isnt a good one- one is an accidental tragedy caused by negligence (criminal maybe)-

the other is an intentional, premeditated act

the "making criminals out of women" is dramatic hyperbole right out of the hardline pro-abortion set and frankly its beneath you

[Chizzang]

All subtleties and 20 week hard lines and what might or might not be.... debatable forever
In the end we have to decide what kind of society we want to live in
All freedoms to some degree get abused (see: Gun violence)

Recently:
A toddler got her head blown off by her 5 year old brother - and - nobody went to jail

And yet we've got people in this country enthusiastically lining up to make criminals out of women
who they don't even know and have absolutely no clue what the situation is - medically or otherwise

the whole thing is so damn strange I can hardly make sense of it...

I get your analogy, but it isnt a good one- one is an accidental tragedy caused by negligence (criminal maybe)-

the other is an intentional, premeditated act

the "making criminals out of women" is dramatic hyperbole right out of the hardline pro-abortion set and frankly its beneath you

So you're saying making abortion illegal doesn't make criminals out of women..?
(because it does) the man who intimidates the woman into getting an abortion doesn't go to jail

and:
Accidental tragedy, you funny man... Pregnancies can also be accidental tragedies (said the rapist)
Pregnancies can also be deliberate tragedies (said the uncle)
and medical tragedies (said the deformed fetus and God)
and a myriad of other "tragedies"

On the Tragedy Meter I won't spend much time defending one "tragedy" over the other
when the circumstances aren't my business
nor is where daddy puts his loaded revolver around the toddlers

We're on the same page with late term abortions - I hate them - and disagree with them
About as much as I disagree with loaded handguns and toddlers
there's absolutely a "crime" happening in both cases - spiritually, Societally and emotionally

but who do we haul off and lock up..?
Making abortion a crime does not improve a society as much as Pastor batshit crazy might tell us it does

[BDKJMU]

I get your analogy, but it isnt a good one- one is an accidental tragedy caused by negligence (criminal maybe)-

the other is an intentional, premeditated act

the "making criminals out of women" is dramatic hyperbole right out of the hardline pro-abortion set and frankly its beneath you

So you're saying making abortion illegal doesn't make criminals out of women..?
(because it does) the man who intimidates the woman into getting an abortion doesn't go to jail

and:
Accidental tragedy, you funny man... Pregnancies can also be accidental tragedies (said the rapist)
Pregnancies can also be deliberate tragedies (said the uncle)
and medical tragedies (said the deformed fetus and God)
and a myriad of other "tragedies"

On the Tragedy Meter I won't spend much time defending one "tragedy" over the other
when the circumstances aren't my business
nor is where daddy puts his loaded revolver around the toddlers

We're on the same page with late term abortions - I hate them - and disagree with them
About as much as I disagree with loaded handguns and toddlers
there's absolutely a "crime" happening in both cases - spiritually, Societally and emotionally

but who do we haul off and lock up..?
Making abortion a crime does not improve a society as much as Pastor batshit crazy might tell us it does

The doctor...
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/05/15/go ... no-parole/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[CID1990]

I get your analogy, but it isnt a good one- one is an accidental tragedy caused by negligence (criminal maybe)-

the other is an intentional, premeditated act

the "making criminals out of women" is dramatic hyperbole right out of the hardline pro-abortion set and frankly its beneath you

So you're saying making abortion illegal doesn't make criminals out of women..?
(because it does) the man who intimidates the woman into getting an abortion doesn't go to jail

and:
Accidental tragedy, you funny man... Pregnancies can also be accidental tragedies (said the rapist)
Pregnancies can also be deliberate tragedies (said the uncle)
and medical tragedies (said the deformed fetus and God)
and a myriad of other "tragedies"

On the Tragedy Meter I won't spend much time defending one "tragedy" over the other
when the circumstances aren't my business
nor is where daddy puts his loaded revolver around the toddlers

We're on the same page with late term abortions - I hate them - and disagree with them
About as much as I disagree with loaded handguns and toddlers
there's absolutely a "crime" happening in both cases - spiritually, Societally and emotionally

but who do we haul off and lock up..?
Making abortion a crime does not improve a society as much as Pastor batshit crazy might tell us it does

No, it doesnt. The woman who has a legal abortion isnt a criminal. Neither is the woman who doesnt have an abortion.

But yeah- I would criminalize late term abortions in the same way that I would criminalize a parent taking their one day old infant and smothering it with a pillow.

You may struggle with where the line is Cleets, and thats a tacit acknowledgement that there IS a line. Just because we cant agree on where it is (in the larger sense) doesnt mean we cant find a compromise position.

I dont think abortion should be illegal across the board but if there is a point where an unborn fetus can be considered a human being, then at that point abortion ceases to be simply a womens issue.

By the way- the man who intimidates a woman into stealing also makes her a criminal, and the man is an accessory to that. If he intimidated her into an illegal abortion it would be the same. That said, Ive never known any of these fragile flowers you speak of. They must be a west coast phenomenon /snark