Charlie Manuel Watch Thread - 2010 Edition

[GannonFan]

For all the grief that Moyer's gotten recently, though, in light of his Phillies career potentially coming to an end (although, now, with the arm injury, the Phils could make a good case to bring him back on a one year deal at a significantly lower base, high incentive contract - I'm not saying they should, just saying) you have to admit the Phils got one heck of a deal when they traded for Moyer. I mean, we picked him up by trading two guys named Andrew Barb and Andy Baldwin as a mid-season pickup in 2006, and we ended up getting a 56-40 record with over 720 IP over the course of 5 years. Granted, it wasn't always pretty, but if we made trades like that and got that back in return everytime the Phils would be certifiable genuises. As it stands, one heck of a signing by Gillick back in '06.

As for going forward, Happ certainly seems like he's ready and absent any big moves (and even in light of one) I can't imagine he's not recalled today when Moyer hits the DL. But you have to think they'll make a play for one of the big 3 starting pitchers that could be had (Oswalt, Haren, or less likely, Cain). If they had to, I would even consider giving up Victorino and keeping Werth. Victorino's stock is never going to be higher than it is right now (while his average is down he's putting up some power numbers) and you figure with Brown coming up in September and then staying here after that, he can replace Victorino in center if need be. And plus, Victorino starts making a lot of money soon - up to $9.5M by 2012 - I like Victorino, but he's starting to be overpaid as a result of the success the Phils have had. And if they get guys like Oswalt or Haren you have to like it going forward - both those guys are wrapped up in reasonable contracts with several years left (Oswalt at $16M through a club option in 2012, Haren at $13M through a club option in 2013) so that would set up a rotation of Halladay, Hamels, and one of them going into next year (along with Blanton and/or Happ, depending on if either of them is part of a trade), with a chance to even afford Werth if he's not part of the trade (and if we want him back). It could be like 1979 all over again - Phils take a step back after 3 division titles only to be even stronger in the following year. Only difference is we have a WS ring and another pennant this time to go along with the division crowns. I could accept that.

Just was listening to Jason Stark on the Fanatic. Said look for the Phils to do 2 deals before the deadline. Said they're focusing on Oswalt, Arizona is asking too much for Haren & he expects Haren to stay in the desert. Said they'd also be looking for a bat since the lineup is anemic. The Phils are apparently shopping Happ pretty hard, so look for him to be the most likely pitcher out. So, if you trade Victorino, which I'm not saying is a totally bad idea, your 2011 starting OF is Brown, Ibanez and who? Regardless of how he finishes the year, I'm not sold on Werth coming back next year.

There's some rumblings out there that maybe the Phils do a deal with the Astros where they get Oswalt and Carlos Lee. That would solve the OF for next year (Ibanez, Brown, and Lee). Lee's 3 years older than Werth, and he's already getting Werth-type money that Werth will want next year ($19M), but he's also signed through 2012. If the Phils don't think they can keep Werth (or if they don't think Werth will return to the form he had back in April) Lee's not a bad option. You'll still need someone after next year when Ibanez goes, but if you can keep Victorino (say trade Werth and Happ and something else that's not Dominic Brown for Oswalt and Lee) then you can start phasing Ibanez out even earlier.

[bluehenbillk]

Lee is hitting .240 - 12 - 48. Terrible #'s. Especially in a bandbox like MinuteMaid. And Werth isn't going to get $19M or even Jason Bay money next year, he's played his way outta that.

[GannonFan]

Lee is hitting .240 - 12 - 48. Terrible #'s. Especially in a bandbox like MinuteMaid. And Werth isn't going to get $19M or even Jason Bay money next year, he's played his way outta that.

Sure his numbers are down right now - that's why you could get him when you dump Werth - no one's going to give you a huge upgrade over Werth - why would they. But Lee's got much better numbers in every year prior to this (while also playing in Houston) so there's always the potential Lee's going to put up better numbers. He's got a lot more of a track record than Werth does so even though he's a little older there's still a better chance he'll produce than Werth will.

Of course, if you keep Victorino then there's no need to bring in an OF from somewhere else - if they find a way to send Werth to someplace like Tampa as a 3rd team that would work too.

[bluehenbillk]

Of course, if you keep Victorino then there's no need to bring in an OF from somewhere else - if they find a way to send Werth to someplace like Tampa as a 3rd team that would work too.

With you on that.

[bluehenbillk]

Phils brought up from AA Reading, RHP Vance Worley, sent Carpenter back to AAA.

[GannonFan]

Phils brought up from AA Reading, RHP Vance Worley, sent Carpenter back to AAA.

Yeah, saw that. Worley has been very hot as of late - think he's working on 18 consecutive scoreless innings and just finished a complete game, 3 hit shutout. And remember, Happ initially came straight up to the big club from AA so skipping AAA has happened successfully before for the Phils.

Shame about Carpenter - gets a shot last night and can't deliver. I think he's spent 3 days in the majors over 3 stints up here. He's the Rick Schue of the Lehigh Valley pitching staff.

[bluehenbillk]

Phils slide reminds you of Pink Floyd's "Another Brick in the Wall"

[00bluehen]

You've gotta give credit to Cholly earning the trust and respect of his players by letting Blanton bat with 2 outs in the top of the 7th last night and the bases l..................................................nah, I can't even get myself to believe that enough to finish typing it and find any good in it.

WTF!?!? I know Blanton was pitching well and you can't predict the future, but WHY do you let the pitcher bat with 2 outs in the 7th of a 1-1 game with the bases juiced?!? Just when Mumbles makes you think he's possibly not a bad manager...

[93henfan]

The Phils no longer own the NL Central. Jesus has the last week been a royal ass-beating.

Amaro needs to focus on getting the team right for 2011. As many have stated already, any moves to shore up pitching for 2nd half 2010 are futile with this offense.

[BlueHen86]

You've gotta give credit to Cholly earning the trust and respect of his players by letting Blanton bat with 2 outs in the top of the 7th last night and the bases l..................................................nah, I can't even get myself to believe that enough to finish typing it and find any good in it.

WTF!?!? I know Blanton was pitching well and you can't predict the future, but WHY do you let the pitcher bat with 2 outs in the 7th of a 1-1 game with the bases juiced?!? Just when Mumbles makes you think he's possibly not a bad manager...

There is no way that I let Blanton bat.

I heard on the radio this morning that after Blanton has thrown 75 pitches in a game his ERA is over 9.

[GannonFan]

As many have stated already, any moves to shore up pitching for 2nd half 2010 are futile with this offense.

No need to look any further than Halladay's 10-8 record this year - the way he's pitched, he should've won a lot more games than that. But without an offense, even a great pitcher will be only so effective.

[blueballs]

WTF!?!? I know Blanton was pitching well and you can't predict the future, but WHY do you let the pitcher bat with 2 outs in the 7th of a 1-1 game with the bases juiced?!? Just when Mumbles makes you think he's possibly not a bad manager...

Because Manuel has no faith in his bullpen, simple as that.

[93henfan]

WTF!?!? I know Blanton was pitching well and you can't predict the future, but WHY do you let the pitcher bat with 2 outs in the 7th of a 1-1 game with the bases juiced?!? Just when Mumbles makes you think he's possibly not a bad manager...

Because Manuel has no faith in his bullpen, simple as that.

Exactomundo.

[93henfan]

If the Braves play at their current .591 clip the rest of the way they would finish with 96 wins and almost assuredly make the playoffs either as a division winnner or wild card.

To match that record Philly would have to go 48-21 (.695) the rest of the way. It is possible but nothing Philly has shown this year leads me to believe that is likely so the Phils are going to need the Braves to cool off a bit to make a race of it.

IMO the wild card wil come out of the Central division so it would sem like the magic number for Philly is 96 wins.

The situation is not nearly as dire as you make it sound IF the Phils can get the bats going.

The Phils are only 3 games back in the wild card race. San Fran is the WC leader at 52-43 (.547). That projects to 88 wins if they maintain the same pace. The Phils are 49-46. To get to 89 wins, they'd need to go 40-27 (.597) the rest of the way. That's doable.

[93henfan]

Phils fire hitting coach Milt Thompson this evening and replace him with Greg Gross.

[BlueHen86]

Phils fire hitting coach Milt Thompson this evening and replace him with Greg Gross.

You mean the same Milt Thompson who was the hitting coach when the phils won the World Series in 2008? The same Milt Thompson who was the coach when the Phils went to the World Series in 2009?

This is a terrible move. I know the team needs something to shake it up, but making Thompson a scape goat isn't it. Sit Werth and Ibanez if need be, they are the ones who aren't hitting.

One of the local reporters (I forget which one) said recently that the Phillie players are still pissed off over the Cliff Lee trade and that it might be affecting their play.

[bluehenbillk]

One of the local reporters (I forget which one) said recently that the Phillie players are still pissed off over the Cliff Lee trade and that it might be affecting their play.

That's a BS excuse, MLB players have to be held accountable, if you're not hitting (read: the entire lineup minus Howard & Polanco) then it's your own damn fault. Not Milt Thompson's, not Charlie Manuel's, not Ruben Amaro's, not ownership's. When you're in the batters box there is one person that can do the job - YOU.

As for Thompson, eh it is what is. He got more credit than probably deserved when they were riding high & likewise gets more of the blame now. Other than breaking down video & spending extra time in the cage before games, what else can he really do? The problem is guys have "career years" sometimes, you have a bunch of guys having "career lows" - JRoll, Victorino, Werth, Utley (b4 he got hurt), Ibanez, the entire bench, etc.

[GannonFan]

Phils fire hitting coach Milt Thompson this evening and replace him with Greg Gross.

You mean the same Milt Thompson who was the hitting coach when the phils won the World Series in 2008? The same Milt Thompson who was the coach when the Phils went to the World Series in 2009?

This is a terrible move. I know the team needs something to shake it up, but making Thompson a scape goat isn't it. Sit Werth and Ibanez if need be, they are the ones who aren't hitting.

One of the local reporters (I forget which one) said recently that the Phillie players are still pissed off over the Cliff Lee trade and that it might be affecting their play.

He's a hitting coach, nothing more. They are always the scapegoats, that's how baseball works.

As for the players being pissed off over the Cliff Lee trade, give me a break. No one was moaning and groaning over it when everyone was hitting in April. And let's be honest - this is the best the Phils have been on paper in any of the past 3 years even without Cliff Lee. The only reason some guys may be complaining now is that they are frustrated that they aren't hitting and they themselves are looking for someone to blame. Roy Halladay's pitched just as well as Cliff Lee has this year and Roy's only 10-8 - if you don't hit, it doesn't matter who you have pitching. I think I heard a stat today too that the Phils have scored 3 or less runs in a game 45 times this year. That's about half the games. We can talk about Cliff Lee until we're blue in the face but if you have so many games where you don't score runs you'll be right where the Phillies are. Start hitting and things get a lot brighter.

And with that said, look at the Phils schedule from now until the San Diego series in late August - after the Rockies they have the D-backs at home, Nats and fish on the road, Mets and Dodgers at home, Mets on the road, Giants and Nats and Astros at home. If there was ever a schedule lined up for a nice second half surge, this is it. And all they have to do is get the Wild Card and then we'll see. I'm not giving up on them yet.

[BlueHen86]

You mean the same Milt Thompson who was the hitting coach when the phils won the World Series in 2008? The same Milt Thompson who was the coach when the Phils went to the World Series in 2009?

This is a terrible move. I know the team needs something to shake it up, but making Thompson a scape goat isn't it. Sit Werth and Ibanez if need be, they are the ones who aren't hitting.

One of the local reporters (I forget which one) said recently that the Phillie players are still pissed off over the Cliff Lee trade and that it might be affecting their play.

He's a hitting coach, nothing more. They are always the scapegoats, that's how baseball works.

As for the players being pissed off over the Cliff Lee trade, give me a break. No one was moaning and groaning over it when everyone was hitting in April. And let's be honest - this is the best the Phils have been on paper in any of the past 3 years even without Cliff Lee. The only reason some guys may be complaining now is that they are frustrated that they aren't hitting and they themselves are looking for someone to blame. Roy Halladay's pitched just as well as Cliff Lee has this year and Roy's only 10-8 - if you don't hit, it doesn't matter who you have pitching. I think I heard a stat today too that the Phils have scored 3 or less runs in a game 45 times this year. That's about half the games. We can talk about Cliff Lee until we're blue in the face but if you have so many games where you don't score runs you'll be right where the Phillies are. Start hitting and things get a lot brighter.

And with that said, look at the Phils schedule from now until the San Diego series in late August - after the Rockies they have the D-backs at home, Nats and fish on the road, Mets and Dodgers at home, Mets on the road, Giants and Nats and Astros at home. If there was ever a schedule lined up for a nice second half surge, this is it. And all they have to do is get the Wild Card and then we'll see. I'm not giving up on them yet.

Do you think firing Milt Thompson is going to solve the Phils problems? I don't. I would have preferred to see Charlie sit someone first. He sat Rollins in the past and it worked.

It's not Thompson's fault that Ibanez is getting old.
It's not Thompson's fault that Werth is pressing too hard.
It's not Thompson's fault that Rollins and Utley have had extedned periods on the DL.

I understand that coaches get fired, but I would have liked to see some other moves first.

As for Cliff Lee, don't shoot the messenger, I'm just posting what I heard on the radio.

[GannonFan]

He's a hitting coach, nothing more. They are always the scapegoats, that's how baseball works.

As for the players being pissed off over the Cliff Lee trade, give me a break. No one was moaning and groaning over it when everyone was hitting in April. And let's be honest - this is the best the Phils have been on paper in any of the past 3 years even without Cliff Lee. The only reason some guys may be complaining now is that they are frustrated that they aren't hitting and they themselves are looking for someone to blame. Roy Halladay's pitched just as well as Cliff Lee has this year and Roy's only 10-8 - if you don't hit, it doesn't matter who you have pitching. I think I heard a stat today too that the Phils have scored 3 or less runs in a game 45 times this year. That's about half the games. We can talk about Cliff Lee until we're blue in the face but if you have so many games where you don't score runs you'll be right where the Phillies are. Start hitting and things get a lot brighter.

And with that said, look at the Phils schedule from now until the San Diego series in late August - after the Rockies they have the D-backs at home, Nats and fish on the road, Mets and Dodgers at home, Mets on the road, Giants and Nats and Astros at home. If there was ever a schedule lined up for a nice second half surge, this is it. And all they have to do is get the Wild Card and then we'll see. I'm not giving up on them yet.

Do you think firing Milt Thompson is going to solve the Phils problems? I don't. I would have preferred to see Charlie sit someone first. He sat Rollins in the past and it worked.

It's not Thompson's fault that Ibanez is getting old.
It's not Thompson's fault that Werth is pressing too hard.
It's not Thompson's fault that Rollins and Utley have had extedned periods on the DL.

I understand that coaches get fired, but I would have liked to see some other moves first.

As for Cliff Lee, don't shoot the messenger, I'm just posting what I heard on the radio.

No I don't think firing Milt Thompson is going to solve the Phils problems. That's why I called him a scapegoat. But hitting coaches get fired all the time in MLB so the Phils didn't do anything out of the ordinary here. And he's been sitting Ibanez a lot more and like you said they sat Rollins a bit. Thing is, you need these guys to start performing yesterday. Sitting them down a few days to spare Milt the hardship of a sacrificial firing just uses time the Phils don't have.

[00bluehen]

What is this I'm watching? Runs? For Halladay? Can the sucktastic bullpen find a way to lose this one, cause surely things have been too good to be true so far at CBP tonight...

[93henfan]

Phils now 1-0 under the expert tutelage of Greg Gross.




Sorry. I just couldn't say that with a straight face.

[93henfan]

Phils chase Ronaldo Hemenez after 2 plus.

Wasn't he supposed to be good?

[clenz]

Phils chase Ronaldo Hemenez after 2 plus.

Wasn't he supposed to be good?

Weren't the Phills supposed to run away with the division?

[93henfan]

Phils chase Ronaldo Hemenez after 2 plus.

Wasn't he supposed to be good?

Weren't the Phills supposed to run away with the division?

Generally speaking, a team that wins back-to-back-to-back division titles, a couple of pennants, and a World Series in a three year span gets the nod in the preseason predictions. I'm not sure if anyone said they would "run away with the division" though. Your point?

Btw, the Phils are not sitting too badly at 3 games out of the wildcard with, oh, two and half months still to play.