kalm wrote:GannonFan wrote:
Everyone, pretty simple word. You, me, Dupree, anyone in Congress, everyone in the media, everyone on any kind of social network, anyone who reads a paper, anyone who doesn't read a paper. I'd draw you a Venn diagram but two concentric circles with the same diameter is a pretty boring drawing.
The reason to push for fast track is simple, even for you - by going fast track and giving Congress just an up or down vote, it gives the trade bill a chance to pass even with stuff in it that Congress normally would never vote for. It's the same thing as putting ammendments onto bills. It's not terribly complicated. It's a way to get Congress, as well as parties in other nations, out of the way so that fewer people are around the table when the negotiations happen and you have an actual chance to get a win-win trade bill that would benefit both nations. Since Congress still needs to vote on it (see the above definition of "everyone") they get to see it and they can determine if they can live with the consequences of the bill that don't favor us. None of these bill are ever going to be perfect where every single portion of it is a win for us - the real world doesn't work that way.
So it's trying to see what's there (before voting on it, not the Pelosi way of voting on it and then reading it), if we can live with it the way it's written, and vote yes or no. It's really that simple. It doesn't matter who wrote it, who paid the person to write it, who got to whisper in someone's ear when they wrote it. It may be written behind closed doors but it gets voted on with the doors wide open. If we don't like it, we vote no and they can always write another one. But at least this way these bills actually have a chance of being pulled together into a vote - without fast track, legislation like this wouldn't get off the ground. But hey, we can and probably will keep piecing free trade bills together, one country at a time, and hope that China's penchant to do the same isn't fast than us. Stick your head in the ground all you want, but you can't wish competition and the rest of the world away, no matter how many times you click your heels.
Meh.
For something this important the process should be transparent the entire way through. I could give a **** if others are worried that greater congressional oversight and media attention trips up the process in our favor. We're not obligated to play nice when it comes to our interests and ideals of labor rights and environmental protection. It's a slow process to begin with and hell, the consequences of negotiations spanning 5 years could even affect the outcome of elections during that stretch of time, thereby affecting how final approval may go in the congress.
But your love affair and trust in the executive branch and multinational corporations to decide what's right for the entire country is admirable.
Really, kalm, is all you have, "meh"? While you may think your pithiness is creative, at the heart of it I think it betrays a genuine lack of ideas as to how else to do this. You're a true modern day Progressive - full of scorn for how things are and completely no idea how to make it better. Well done.
And as usual, you are missing the point. These things are not done overnight, nor will they ever be. They are complicated negotiations. And no, we don't have to give up our ideals or play nice. But for a successful negotiation, we're probably not going to get every single thing we want while not giving up anything. But the point being, we eschew free trade and the these types of agreements at our own peril. We can pretend that we are the only market in town and that the rest of the world has to cowtow to us and play by our rules and play in our favor because if they don't, we'll just shut them out. But in the meantime, the rest of the world is moving forward and other markets are growing and other countries are setting up their own free trade agreements and getting the advantages that come along with those. It's the same losing argument you have with manufacturing jobs in America - you think that we should flex our muscles, tell other countries and corporations that we demand the jobs be here or we'll shut them out, and then reap the benefits. You never learned the lessons from Hawley-Smoot and you seem to want to keep playing that losing hand. Innovate and compete or be doomed to slow and steady decay (re: most of Europe) while firmly believing in your righteousness.
Oh, and nothing I said in any way implies that I believe the Executive branch and multinational corporations should decide what it right for the entire country. I still believe, and yes, reading it again I did say this, Congress still has the power to vote yes or no on any trade bill. Do you disagree that even under fast track that Congress would have this power? Do tell.
