Not really.Aho Old Guy wrote:I'm seeing some serious lack of context and objectivity with a large dose of denial, here, gentlemen.
Carry - on.
"Fast & Furious" was an operation under the "Project Gun Runner" banner, but the Obama administration was that operation's baby-daddy completely and entirely. The big difference is that under Bush, no guns were allowed to cross the border into Mexico. It was the Obama administration who came up with the brilliant idea to allow the guns to be "walked" into Mexico...where those guns were used to kill god knows how many people, including Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.Aho Old Guy wrote:Wellll ...Ibanez wrote: Obama did say Fast & Furious began under Bush. That was a lie.
You can keep your doctor.
That's just off the top of my head...
History can be a beeotch. Calling that a 'lie' is bordering on disingenuous, but you are free to believe what you want to believe. This is one of those Right/Left things where folks tend to leave out a sheet-load of context. Basically:
*Project Gun Runner* (or something like that) was initiated by the ATF in 2006. There were multiple operations conducted under that umbrella. Hundreds of weapons 'walked' before 'El Prezzie Obummer' even took office, and there were 'players' in this mess that make 'Obama Lied" look like WAY too much partisan tripe.
There, of course, is a rather exhaustive report with all this info if you care to go out and look for it. I saved (and skimmed) a copy of the report, and what I can recall there were several ATF supervisors and a Federal ADA (in Tucson/Phoenix ?) that really screwed the pooch in a major way.
So there.
Aho Old Guy wrote:I'm seeing some serious lack of context and objectivity with a large dose of denial, here, gentlemen.
Carry - on.
Says somebody with zero point zero objectivity. Aho, you've easily taken over the reigns for most partisan poster which is quite impressive given that jelly and houndawg are still posting.
Oh, darn.Operation Wide Receiver was particularly significant because it took place in part under the supervision of William Newell, the same Special Agent in Charge (SAC) who oversaw Operation Fast and Furious, and because attorneys and officials in the Department’s Criminal Division who reviewed Operation Wide Receiver for possible prosecution learned that firearms purchased by subjects during the investigation had “walked.” This knowledge of “gun walking” in Operation Wide Receiver by senior officials in the Department’s Criminal Division and by ATF was significant to us as we evaluated the ATF’s and the Department’s response to Congressional inquiries about ATF firearms trafficking investigations along the Southwest Border in the wake of the shooting death of Agent Terry...
Operation Wide Receiver was conducted in two parts between March 2006 and December 2007 by agents in ATF’s Tucson Office, which is part of ATF’s Phoenix Field Division. The investigation involved several straw purchasers, one of whom was a subject in both parts of the case...
ATF agents knew that the subjects were purchasing firearms for other persons, converting firearms to illegal weapons, and transporting firearms to Mexico. However, during the course of Operation Wide Receiver, agents did not arrest any subjects and seized less than a quarter of the more than 400 firearms purchased.
I already mentioned Operation WR. Keep upAho Old Guy wrote:Review of ATF’s Operation Fast and Furious and Related Matters (PDF)
- OIG report
Chapter 3
Part I
Pgs 27-28
Oh, darn.Operation Wide Receiver was particularly significant because it took place in part under the supervision of William Newell, the same Special Agent in Charge (SAC) who oversaw Operation Fast and Furious, and because attorneys and officials in the Department’s Criminal Division who reviewed Operation Wide Receiver for possible prosecution learned that firearms purchased by subjects during the investigation had “walked.” This knowledge of “gun walking” in Operation Wide Receiver by senior officials in the Department’s Criminal Division and by ATF was significant to us as we evaluated the ATF’s and the Department’s response to Congressional inquiries about ATF firearms trafficking investigations along the Southwest Border in the wake of the shooting death of Agent Terry...
Operation Wide Receiver was conducted in two parts between March 2006 and December 2007 by agents in ATF’s Tucson Office, which is part of ATF’s Phoenix Field Division. The investigation involved several straw purchasers, one of whom was a subject in both parts of the case...
ATF agents knew that the subjects were purchasing firearms for other persons, converting firearms to illegal weapons, and transporting firearms to Mexico. However, during the course of Operation Wide Receiver, agents did not arrest any subjects and seized less than a quarter of the more than 400 firearms purchased.
And by-the-way, Einsteins, I'm an old-school 'law and order cloth-coat Republican' who passed out flyers for Richard Nixon in the Spring of 1968 as a young teenager. I didn't leave the GOP. The GOP went bonkers and left me.
Any other false Rightie narratives I can debunk for you?
89Hen wrote:Aho Old Guy wrote:I'm seeing some serious lack of context and objectivity with a large dose of denial, here, gentlemen.
Carry - on.
Never underestimate your opponent...mrklean wrote:You can't be that STUPIDALPHAGRIZ1 wrote:I dont want to see them
But its a no brainer that Obama tapped the Tower.
Only on St. Paddy's Day.houndawg wrote:89Hen wrote:
I bleed Green, bitch.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03 ... retapping/The US has made a formal apology to Britain after the White House accused GCHQ of helping Barack Obama spy on Donald Trump in the White House.
Sean Spicer, Mr Trump's press secretary, repeated a claim on Thursday evening – initially made by an analyst on Fox News - that GCHQ was used by Mr Obama to spy on Trump Tower in the lead-up to last November's election.
The comments prompted a furious response from GCHQ, which in a break from normal practice issued a public statement: "Recent allegations made by media commentator Judge Andrew Napolitano about GCHQ being asked to conduct 'wiretapping' against the then president-elect are nonsense. They are utterly ridiculous and should be ignored."
Skjellyfetti wrote:**** idiots.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03 ... retapping/The US has made a formal apology to Britain after the White House accused GCHQ of helping Barack Obama spy on Donald Trump in the White House.
Sean Spicer, Mr Trump's press secretary, repeated a claim on Thursday evening – initially made by an analyst on Fox News - that GCHQ was used by Mr Obama to spy on Trump Tower in the lead-up to last November's election.
The comments prompted a furious response from GCHQ, which in a break from normal practice issued a public statement: "Recent allegations made by media commentator Judge Andrew Napolitano about GCHQ being asked to conduct 'wiretapping' against the then president-elect are nonsense. They are utterly ridiculous and should be ignored."
Sounds like Hillary..Aho Old Guy wrote:Review of ATF’s Operation Fast and Furious and Related Matters (PDF)
- OIG report
Chapter 3
Part I
Pgs 27-28
Oh, darn.Operation Wide Receiver was particularly significant because it took place in part under the supervision of William Newell, the same Special Agent in Charge (SAC) who oversaw Operation Fast and Furious, and because attorneys and officials in the Department’s Criminal Division who reviewed Operation Wide Receiver for possible prosecution learned that firearms purchased by subjects during the investigation had “walked.” This knowledge of “gun walking” in Operation Wide Receiver by senior officials in the Department’s Criminal Division and by ATF was significant to us as we evaluated the ATF’s and the Department’s response to Congressional inquiries about ATF firearms trafficking investigations along the Southwest Border in the wake of the shooting death of Agent Terry...
Operation Wide Receiver was conducted in two parts between March 2006 and December 2007 by agents in ATF’s Tucson Office, which is part of ATF’s Phoenix Field Division. The investigation involved several straw purchasers, one of whom was a subject in both parts of the case...
ATF agents knew that the subjects were purchasing firearms for other persons, converting firearms to illegal weapons, and transporting firearms to Mexico. However, during the course of Operation Wide Receiver, agents did not arrest any subjects and seized less than a quarter of the more than 400 firearms purchased.
And by-the-way, Einsteins, I'm an old-school 'law and order cloth-coat Republican' who passed out flyers for Richard Nixon in the Spring of 1968 as a young teenager. I didn't leave the GOP. The GOP went bonkers and left me.
Any other false Rightie narratives I can debunk for you?
Actually at the time Hillary was fvxking for virginityBDKJMU wrote:Sounds like Hillary..Aho Old Guy wrote:Review of ATF’s Operation Fast and Furious and Related Matters (PDF)
- OIG report
Chapter 3
Part I
Pgs 27-28
Oh, darn.
And by-the-way, Einsteins, I'm an old-school 'law and order cloth-coat Republican' who passed out flyers for Richard Nixon in the Spring of 1968 as a young teenager. I didn't leave the GOP. The GOP went bonkers and left me.
Any other false Rightie narratives I can debunk for you?
House Intelligence Chairman Devin Nunes said Wednesday that President Donald Trump's personal communications may have been picked up by investigators through "incidental collection."
Nunes said at a news conference he discovered the potential surveillance of Trump himself while reviewing intelligence reports, but said it was not related to Russia.
"This is a normal, incidental collection, based on what I could collect," Nunes said. "This appears to be all legally collected foreign intelligence under" the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.
This ^ will turn out to be vapor...CAA Flagship wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/22/politics/ ... nications/
House Intelligence Chairman Devin Nunes said Wednesday that President Donald Trump's personal communications may have been picked up by investigators through "incidental collection."
Nunes said at a news conference he discovered the potential surveillance of Trump himself while reviewing intelligence reports, but said it was not related to Russia.
"This is a normal, incidental collection, based on what I could collect," Nunes said. "This appears to be all legally collected foreign intelligence under" the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.
This relates to my lament in another thread about having two major political parties. To me this smacks of a Republican Committee Chairman trying to run interference for a Republican President. And I have no doubt that it could just as easily happen in the other direction.Chizzang wrote:This ^ will turn out to be vapor...CAA Flagship wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/22/politics/ ... nications/
He's made a claim that he won't be able to support - but - it did the job
Now team Trump can say: See, we were tapped
Even though there is the exact same amount of evidence now as there was then... Zero
I think that is worse than Trump's claim that Obama wiretapped him.JohnStOnge wrote:This relates to my lament in another thread about having two major political parties. To me this smacks of a Republican Committee Chairman trying to run interference for a Republican President. And I have no doubt that it could just as easily happen in the other direction.Chizzang wrote:
This ^ will turn out to be vapor...
He's made a claim that he won't be able to support - but - it did the job
Now team Trump can say: See, we were tapped
Even though there is the exact same amount of evidence now as there was then... Zero
I'll admit that I have to make an effort to be objective but I feel fairly confident that I'm being objective in assessing commentary on this that what the Republican Chairman was talking about is routine surveillance that in no way supports what Trump tweeted and does not represent anything nefarious.
And if it's true that Nunez went to Trump before he discussed the information with the Congressional Committee that's really bad. REALLY bad.
Right now I'm feeling like it's just another bitter indication that the only check on the Democratic Party...the Republican Party...is just awful. Just totally intellectually dishonest and unscrupulous.
I feel like a fool for having defended these people in the past.
But we'll see.
I'm sure the Democrats would prefer to have had Hillary win. But I think they may actually end up in a stronger position in the long run as a result because of the scenario we're in right now. As you know, I think the the Republican Party is in the process of seriously damaging its credibility. And, as you know, I think it was already in bad position for the long term due to the demographic trends.CAA Flagship wrote:
On a side note, the Dems have lost more air from their balloon since election night than the balloon can hold.
John, you are not pointing to anything that hits home with voters. They want favorable results. Period.JohnStOnge wrote:I'm sure the Democrats would prefer to have had Hillary win. But I think they may actually end up in a stronger position in the long run as a result because of the scenario we're in right now. As you know, I think the the Republican Party is in the process of seriously damaging its credibility. And, as you know, I think it was already in bad position for the long term due to the demographic trends.CAA Flagship wrote:
On a side note, the Dems have lost more air from their balloon since election night than the balloon can hold.
This right hereCAA Flagship wrote:John, you are not pointing to anything that hits home with voters. They want favorable results. Period.JohnStOnge wrote:
I'm sure the Democrats would prefer to have had Hillary win. But I think they may actually end up in a stronger position in the long run as a result because of the scenario we're in right now. As you know, I think the the Republican Party is in the process of seriously damaging its credibility. And, as you know, I think it was already in bad position for the long term due to the demographic trends.
If the next election was before, say, July, maybe the American people can remember what has transpired over the last couple of months. But if Trump/Republicans follow through on their campaign promises, and the economy thrives, all they have to do is point to the results, and compare that to the previous 8 years.
The previous 8 years of what..?CAA Flagship wrote:John, you are not pointing to anything that hits home with voters. They want favorable results. Period.JohnStOnge wrote:
I'm sure the Democrats would prefer to have had Hillary win. But I think they may actually end up in a stronger position in the long run as a result because of the scenario we're in right now. As you know, I think the the Republican Party is in the process of seriously damaging its credibility. And, as you know, I think it was already in bad position for the long term due to the demographic trends.
If the next election was before, say, July, maybe the American people can remember what has transpired over the last couple of months. But if Trump/Republicans follow through on their campaign promises, and the economy thrives, all they have to do is point to the results, and compare that to the previous 8 years.
You don't get it. They want a white guy who LOVES America to preside over those things. Not some smug, America hating Kenyan muslin.Chizzang wrote:The previous 8 years of what..?CAA Flagship wrote:
John, you are not pointing to anything that hits home with voters. They want favorable results. Period.
If the next election was before, say, July, maybe the American people can remember what has transpired over the last couple of months. But if Trump/Republicans follow through on their campaign promises, and the economy thrives, all they have to do is point to the results, and compare that to the previous 8 years.
The bumbling going on in this administration right now makes Obama's team look like rocket scientists
How can the stock market grow more than it has in the past 8 years..?
How can the housing market boom more than it has in the past 8 years..?
How can unemployment get lower than it is right now..?
what's he going to fix..?
All Trump can do is break it
Meanwhile:
Build a wall
Cut Taxes
Repeal the affordable care act
While assuring EVERY AMERICAN that want's it will have healthcare
Stamp out ISIS
Bring back Manufacturing jobs
Tariff China and Mexico
Can you even say those without laughing out loud..?
Some people need to FEEL goodChizzang wrote:The previous 8 years of what..?CAA Flagship wrote:
John, you are not pointing to anything that hits home with voters. They want favorable results. Period.
If the next election was before, say, July, maybe the American people can remember what has transpired over the last couple of months. But if Trump/Republicans follow through on their campaign promises, and the economy thrives, all they have to do is point to the results, and compare that to the previous 8 years.
The bumbling going on in this administration right now makes Obama's team look like rocket scientists
How can the stock market grow more than it has in the past 8 years..?
How can the housing market boom more than it has in the past 8 years..?
How can unemployment get lower than it is right now..?
what's he going to fix..?
All Trump can do is break it
Meanwhile:
Build a wall
Cut Taxes
Repeal the affordable care act
While assuring EVERY AMERICAN that want's it will have healthcare
Stamp out ISIS
Bring back Manufacturing jobs
Tariff China and Mexico
Can you even say those without laughing out loud..?
