Political memes, Posters, Funny Pics, Etc.

[UNI88]

1) Economics is not inherently dishonest. The data tells a story. There are multiple variables and the story is up to interpretation. Saying that Reagan raised taxes on the middle class without qualifying that he also lowered taxes on the middle class is dishonest. When Reagan took office someone in the middle class was likely paying between 28 and 54+% in federal income taxes. When he left office they were paying between 15 and 28%. Income taxes on the middle class were close to cut in half during his presidency. Were there other changes that increased their taxes in other areas? Yes. Did they outweigh the overall reduction in their income taxes? On average, I doubt it.

2) Yes, it could be argued that the increase started with Reagan but it could also be argued that it started to inch up under Carter. More importantly Reagan isn't responsible for what happened after his presidency. The vast majority of the increase happened under Obama, trump and Biden. They and those Congresses are responsible for the budgets they passed and signed and their impact on the national debt.

3) I'm glad you've found a simple-minded playdate who also wants to blame all of America's woes on Reagan. You and he are entitled to your opinions but that doesn't make them accurate.

But yes, let's blame everything on Reagan and go back to a 70% income tax rate. I believe California has a max of of a 13.3% income tax rate. Add in local taxes and a high earner in California could be paying 85+% of their income to the government. That's not a disincentive to taking risks, building wealth and innovating at all.

"You're kidding yourself if you think cutting taxes is really cutting taxes. We’re simply deferring massive taxes unfairly and immorally putting huge debt burdens on future generations and that is just wrong."

David Stockman -Reagan’s Budget Director and one the original supply side architects.

Not to mention deferment of public infrastructure and look here…we’re now once again talking about cutting social security insurance.

You were saying?

While there is a limit to how much you can cut taxes and get a corresponding increase in GDP that increases revenue equal to or greater than the tax cut, it can be done. A 50-70% federal income tax rate is an abomination that disincentivizes the kind of risk taking and innovation that pushes this country forward and increases our standard of living. I'm of the opinion that Reagan's cuts bumped our GDP and as a result federal tax revenues. I believe that federal tax revenues decreased once under Reagan (in 1983). His tax cuts fueled the boom that enabled Clinton to balance the budget. The greatest impact on federal revenue over the last 40+ years wasn't a tax cut but the 2008 recession on 2009 revenue.

The impact of Reagan's tax cuts on our debt to GDP ratio were negative but a drop in the bucket compared to what happened under Obama, trump and Biden.


I agree that infrastructure funding is a problem. Based on how Congress and Presidents allocate funding, I think that problem would exist with or without Reagan's tax cuts. Blaming Reagan is lazy and avoids addressing real problems.

What did Reagan do to Social Security?

[UNI88]

Kalm reminds me of Professor Allen Hays at UNI. Everything was Reagan's fault. Had a guy in the class that was great at proclaiming Reagan to be the most awesomest president ever. If he would get that in we were done with lecture for the day because Hays would go on a rant about how bad Reagan was.

Professor Hays was a wise man.

I think Hayes was my Public Budgeting professor. Unremarkable, don't remember a thing about him. As I've told Fiver before, Professor Dennis Grady was the best professor in the Poly Sci department while I was there.

[UNI88]

Kalm reminds me of Professor Allen Hays at UNI. Everything was Reagan's fault. Had a guy in the class that was great at proclaiming Reagan to be the most awesomest president ever. If he would get that in we were done with lecture for the day because Hays would go on a rant about how bad Reagan was.

If Reagan is evil for what he did to the national debt then Obama should be the devil incarnate. A true post partisan would realize that.

[HI54UNI]

Professor Hays was a wise man.

I think Hayes was my Public Budgeting professor. Unremarkable, don't remember a thing about him. As I've told Fiver before, Professor Dennis Grady was the best professor in the Poly Sci department while I was there.

I know I had him for that. And I think that is the actual class where we would get the rants.

[kalm]

Actual photo of UNI88 and Fiver back in the old college days.

[SeattleGriz]

Professor Hays was a wise man.

I think Hayes was my Public Budgeting professor. Unremarkable, don't remember a thing about him. As I've told Fiver before, Professor Dennis Grady was the best professor in the Poly Sci department while I was there.

Best professor I had, wrote the classroom book with his wife. It was like he opened up my head and poured in the information. Organic chemistry.

[UNI88]

Actual photo of UNI88 and Fiver back in the old college days.

lol ... Surrender accepted.

[kalm]

Actual photo of UNI88 and Fiver back in the old college days.

lol ... Surrender accepted.

You surrender? I accept!

[UNI88]

lol ... Surrender accepted.

You surrender? I accept!

Believe whatever helps you feel better about yourself.

You've provided a lot of emotional responses but no reasoning why Reagan bears primary responsibility for the national debt and other problems.

What did Reagan do to social security?

When are you going to hold Obama accountable for trashing the national debt exponentially more than Reagan?

[kalm]

You surrender? I accept!

Believe whatever helps you feel better about yourself.

You've provided a lot of emotional responses but no reasoning why Reagan bears primary responsibility for the national debt and other problems.

What did Reagan do to social security?

When are you going to hold Obama accountable for trashing the national debt exponentially more than Reagan?

We’ve discussed this before. How deep do you want to go?

Obama built up huge debt while keeping Reaganomic tax policies intact. He also assumed a crisis economy from Bush. What’s the time frame? EG: It took decades to pay back certain programs like the S&L bailout and some New Deal programs but they eventually turned a profit in the end.

Trump drove up the debt more than Obama in just 4 years. But he also had the impact of Covid.

The point is no one wants to pay for anything. We defer tax increases and infrastructure investment, wages don’t keep up with inflation yet the FED continues to insist wages are the problem.

You’re set that supply side works. I disagree. We can both continue to try and convince but I don’t think either of us are going to be persuaded.

[UNI88]

Believe whatever helps you feel better about yourself.

You've provided a lot of emotional responses but no reasoning why Reagan bears primary responsibility for the national debt and other problems.

What did Reagan do to social security?

When are you going to hold Obama accountable for trashing the national debt exponentially more than Reagan?

We’ve discussed this before. How deep do you want to go?

Obama built up huge debt while keeping Reaganomic tax policies intact. He also assumed a crisis economy from Bush. What’s the time frame? EG: It took decades to pay back certain programs like the S&L bailout and some New Deal programs but they eventually turned a profit in the end.

Trump drove up the debt more than Obama in just 4 years. But he also had the impact of Covid.

The point is no one wants to pay for anything. We defer tax increases and infrastructure investment, wages don’t keep up with inflation yet the FED continues to insist wages are the problem.

You’re set that supply side works. I disagree. We can both continue to try and convince but I don’t think either of us are going to be persuaded.

Deep? You've provided nothing but shallow, emotional arguments against Reagan and blaming him for every tax cut since 1980. Like just about everything in life, tax cuts are not inherently good or bad. They can juice the economy but there is a limit. Cutting taxes from 70% to 50% to 38.5% was good. No one should have to give the federal government 50% or more of their taxable income in a given year.

Obama and Congress are responsible for what happened while he was POTUS, not Reagan. Can we hold someone responsible for their own policies and actions?

Prior to COVID, the national debt under trump was rising at a rate similar to what it was under Obama. trump and Congress are responsible for how they responded and what that did to the national debt just as Biden and Congress are responsible for the impact after trump.

No one wanting to pay for anything, deferring infrastructure investment is a leadership and personal responsibility problem that also shouldn't be put just on Reagan's shoulders.

Supply side has it's weaknesses but it works in moderation. Conservatives want to use it to the extreme and liberals want to trash it. Neither is being smart.

When it comes to tax increases, I think it was Chizzy who said "we don't have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem."

I'll ask again, what did Reagan do to social security?

[BDKJMU]

Believe whatever helps you feel better about yourself.

You've provided a lot of emotional responses but no reasoning why Reagan bears primary responsibility for the national debt and other problems.

What did Reagan do to social security?

When are you going to hold Obama accountable for trashing the national debt exponentially more than Reagan?

We’ve discussed this before. How deep do you want to go?

Obama built up huge debt while keeping Reaganomic tax policies intact. He also assumed a crisis economy from Bush. What’s the time frame? EG: It took decades to pay back certain programs like the S&L bailout and some New Deal programs but they eventually turned a profit in the end.

Trump drove up the debt more than Obama in just 4 years. But he also had the impact of Covid.

The point is no one wants to pay for anything. We defer tax increases and infrastructure investment, wages don’t keep up with inflation yet the FED continues to insist wages are the problem.

You’re set that supply side works. I disagree. We can both continue to try and convince but I don’t think either of us are going to be persuaded.

Wrong.
Bush: 5.7 to 10.6 trillion (86% in 8 years, 8+% a year)
Obama: 10.6 to 19.9 trillion (88% in 8 years, 8+% a year)
Trump 19.9 to 27.7 trillion (39% in 4 years, 8+% a year).
Biden 27.7 trillion to 31.5 trillion (14%) (2 years) (Don't worry, he'll catch up, a lot of his massive spending bills haven't fully taken effect yet..

[BDKJMU]

We’ve discussed this before. How deep do you want to go?

Obama built up huge debt while keeping Reaganomic tax policies intact. He also assumed a crisis economy from Bush. What’s the time frame? EG: It took decades to pay back certain programs like the S&L bailout and some New Deal programs but they eventually turned a profit in the end.

Trump drove up the debt more than Obama in just 4 years. But he also had the impact of Covid.

The point is no one wants to pay for anything. We defer tax increases and infrastructure investment, wages don’t keep up with inflation yet the FED continues to insist wages are the problem.

You’re set that supply side works. I disagree. We can both continue to try and convince but I don’t think either of us are going to be persuaded.

Deep? You've provided nothing but shallow, emotional arguments against Reagan and blaming him for every tax cut since 1980. Like just about everything in life, tax cuts are not inherently good or bad. They can juice the economy but there is a limit. Cutting taxes from 70% to 50% to 38.5% was good. No one should have to give the federal government 50% or more of their taxable income in a given year.

Obama and Congress are responsible for what happened while he was POTUS, not Reagan. Can we hold someone responsible for their own policies and actions?

Prior to COVID, the national debt under trump was rising at a rate similar to what it was under Obama. trump and Congress are responsible for how they responded and what that did to the national debt just as Biden and Congress are responsible for the impact after trump.

No one wanting to pay for anything, deferring infrastructure investment is a leadership and personal responsibility problem that also shouldn't be put just on Reagan's shoulders.

Supply side has it's weaknesses but it works in moderation. Conservatives want to use it to the extreme and liberals want to trash it. Neither is being smart.

When it comes to tax increases, I think it was Chizzy who said "we don't have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem."

I'll ask again, what did Reagan do to social security?

It was actually running less Trumps 1st 3 years. It blew up his last year with Covid to catch him up with Bush & Obama percentage wise..

[BDKJMU]

[BDKJMU]

[BDKJMU]

[kalm]

We’ve discussed this before. How deep do you want to go?

Obama built up huge debt while keeping Reaganomic tax policies intact. He also assumed a crisis economy from Bush. What’s the time frame? EG: It took decades to pay back certain programs like the S&L bailout and some New Deal programs but they eventually turned a profit in the end.

Trump drove up the debt more than Obama in just 4 years. But he also had the impact of Covid.

The point is no one wants to pay for anything. We defer tax increases and infrastructure investment, wages don’t keep up with inflation yet the FED continues to insist wages are the problem.

You’re set that supply side works. I disagree. We can both continue to try and convince but I don’t think either of us are going to be persuaded.

Deep? You've provided nothing but shallow, emotional arguments against Reagan and blaming him for every tax cut since 1980. Like just about everything in life, tax cuts are not inherently good or bad. They can juice the economy but there is a limit. Cutting taxes from 70% to 50% to 38.5% was good. No one should have to give the federal government 50% or more of their taxable income in a given year.

Obama and Congress are responsible for what happened while he was POTUS, not Reagan. Can we hold someone responsible for their own policies and actions?

Prior to COVID, the national debt under trump was rising at a rate similar to what it was under Obama. trump and Congress are responsible for how they responded and what that did to the national debt just as Biden and Congress are responsible for the impact after trump.

No one wanting to pay for anything, deferring infrastructure investment is a leadership and personal responsibility problem that also shouldn't be put just on Reagan's shoulders.

Supply side has it's weaknesses but it works in moderation. Conservatives want to use it to the extreme and liberals want to trash it. Neither is being smart.

When it comes to tax increases, I think it was Chizzy who said "we don't have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem."

I'll ask again, what did Reagan do to social security?

Insults don’t win you points with me. One might ponder if you are projecting your own emotional love for Reagan in his defense. Lol.

Reagan was a hell of a pitchman for economic/political theories that go back decades here if not centuries in the west. The old capital precedes labor argument and nature of democracy.

“The occupation of a hair-dresser, or of a working tallow-chandler [candle maker], cannot be a matter of honour to any person—to say nothing of a number of other more servile employments. Such descriptions of men ought not to suffer oppression from the state; but the state suffers oppression, if such as they, either individually or collectively are permitted to rule [by voting]. In this you think you are combating prejudice, but you are at war with nature.”

- Edmund Burke

More recently it was a continuation of the 1970’s Lewis Powell doctrine.

So no, it’s not all Reagan’s fault. And as I’ve mentioned numerous times, some of his ideals have been continued by Democrats.

Regarding SS, for good or bad, SS payroll tax hikes in 1983.

I’ll let you explain how they were used and what good came from them.

[UNI88]

Deep? You've provided nothing but shallow, emotional arguments against Reagan and blaming him for every tax cut since 1980. Like just about everything in life, tax cuts are not inherently good or bad. They can juice the economy but there is a limit. Cutting taxes from 70% to 50% to 38.5% was good. No one should have to give the federal government 50% or more of their taxable income in a given year.

Obama and Congress are responsible for what happened while he was POTUS, not Reagan. Can we hold someone responsible for their own policies and actions?

Prior to COVID, the national debt under trump was rising at a rate similar to what it was under Obama. trump and Congress are responsible for how they responded and what that did to the national debt just as Biden and Congress are responsible for the impact after trump.

No one wanting to pay for anything, deferring infrastructure investment is a leadership and personal responsibility problem that also shouldn't be put just on Reagan's shoulders.

Supply side has it's weaknesses but it works in moderation. Conservatives want to use it to the extreme and liberals want to trash it. Neither is being smart.

When it comes to tax increases, I think it was Chizzy who said "we don't have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem."

I'll ask again, what did Reagan do to social security?

It was actually running less Trumps 1st 3 years. It blew up his last year with Covid to catch him up with Bush & Obama percentage wise..

I said that based on eyeballing this chart, not quantifying the actual numbers. The slope for Obama and the first couple of years of trump is pretty similar:


kalm likes to excuse Obama's increase because of the situation he inherited but doesn't excuse Reagan for the inflation and economic malaise he inherited from Carter. At least he's consistent in using a double standard when comparing Democrats and Republicans.

[BDKJMU]

It was actually running less Trumps 1st 3 years. It blew up his last year with Covid to catch him up with Bush & Obama percentage wise..

I said that based on eyeballing this chart, not quantifying the actual numbers. The slope for Obama and the first couple of years of trump is pretty similar:


kalm likes to excuse Obama's increase because of the situation he inherited but doesn't excuse Reagan for the inflation and economic malaise he inherited from Carter. At least he's consistent in using a double standard when comparing Democrats and Republicans.

Bush: 5.7 to 10.6 trillion (86% in 8 years, 8+% a year)
Obama: 10.6 to 19.9 trillion (88% in 8 years, 8+% a year)
Trump 19.9 to 27.7 trillion (39% in 4 years, 8+% a year).
Biden 27.7 trillion to 31.5 trillion (14%) (2 years) (Don't worry, he'll catch up, a lot of his massive spending bills haven't fully taken effect yet..

I didn't include any links with the above because those are #s I have looked up over the years, with the in () simple calculations.
-Bush had 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq (you can say Iraq shouldn't have gone), and massive bailouts (can argue he shouldn't have started them).
-Obama had Afghanistan (basically ended Iraq 2009), and continued massive bailouts (American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, etc) which can argue he shouldn't have done.
-Trump had Afghanistan & Covid (can argue shouldn't have passed big Covid relief bill #2).
-Biden had Covid (can argue shouldn't have passed big so called Covid relief bill #3, co called infrastructure, so called inflation reduction act; Ukraine, etc, well over 4 trillion extra spending.

The last time we had a fiscally responsible president was Eisenhower.

[UNI88]

Deep? You've provided nothing but shallow, emotional arguments against Reagan and blaming him for every tax cut since 1980. Like just about everything in life, tax cuts are not inherently good or bad. They can juice the economy but there is a limit. Cutting taxes from 70% to 50% to 38.5% was good. No one should have to give the federal government 50% or more of their taxable income in a given year.

Obama and Congress are responsible for what happened while he was POTUS, not Reagan. Can we hold someone responsible for their own policies and actions?

Prior to COVID, the national debt under trump was rising at a rate similar to what it was under Obama. trump and Congress are responsible for how they responded and what that did to the national debt just as Biden and Congress are responsible for the impact after trump.

No one wanting to pay for anything, deferring infrastructure investment is a leadership and personal responsibility problem that also shouldn't be put just on Reagan's shoulders.

Supply side has it's weaknesses but it works in moderation. Conservatives want to use it to the extreme and liberals want to trash it. Neither is being smart.

When it comes to tax increases, I think it was Chizzy who said "we don't have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem."

I'll ask again, what did Reagan do to social security?

Insults don’t win you points with me. One might ponder if you are projecting your own emotional love for Reagan in his defense. Lol.

Reagan was a hell of a pitchman for economic/political theories that go back decades here if not centuries in the west. The old capital precedes labor argument and nature of democracy.

“The occupation of a hair-dresser, or of a working tallow-chandler [candle maker], cannot be a matter of honour to any person—to say nothing of a number of other more servile employments. Such descriptions of men ought not to suffer oppression from the state; but the state suffers oppression, if such as they, either individually or collectively are permitted to rule [by voting]. In this you think you are combating prejudice, but you are at war with nature.”

- Edmund Burke

More recently it was a continuation of the 1970’s Lewis Powell doctrine.

So no, it’s not all Reagan’s fault. And as I’ve mentioned numerous times, some of his ideals have been continued by Democrats.

Regarding SS, for good or bad, SS payroll tax hikes in 1983.

I’ll let you explain how they were used and what good came from them.

Here you go again cherry picking which points to dispute ...

So Reagan's tax cuts were bad and Reagan's SS payroll tax hikes were also bad? Poor guy can't catch a break, you're going to blame him regardless of what he did.

You have provided nothing of substance to convince me that what Reagan did was the cause of current ills or that what you advocate for is the solution.

[kalm]

Insults don’t win you points with me. One might ponder if you are projecting your own emotional love for Reagan in his defense. Lol.

Reagan was a hell of a pitchman for economic/political theories that go back decades here if not centuries in the west. The old capital precedes labor argument and nature of democracy.

“The occupation of a hair-dresser, or of a working tallow-chandler [candle maker], cannot be a matter of honour to any person—to say nothing of a number of other more servile employments. Such descriptions of men ought not to suffer oppression from the state; but the state suffers oppression, if such as they, either individually or collectively are permitted to rule [by voting]. In this you think you are combating prejudice, but you are at war with nature.”

- Edmund Burke

More recently it was a continuation of the 1970’s Lewis Powell doctrine.

So no, it’s not all Reagan’s fault. And as I’ve mentioned numerous times, some of his ideals have been continued by Democrats.

Regarding SS, for good or bad, SS payroll tax hikes in 1983.

I’ll let you explain how they were used and what good came from them.

Here you go again cherry picking which points to dispute ...

So Reagan's tax cuts were bad and Reagan's SS payroll tax hikes were also bad? Poor guy can't catch a break, you're going to blame him regardless of what he did.

You have provided nothing of substance to convince me that what Reagan did was the cause of current ills or that what you advocate for is the solution.

Or you could answer how they were used and what was good about them.

The tax cuts were bad for the deficit long term. The philosophy…his success in pitching small government and trickle down theory have been embraced ever since. The low taxes and continued debt growth have never really gone away.

I’m open to hear your arguments for the pros and cons of his SS payroll tax increases. I’ll approach it with an open mind but remember, I believe strongly in economics that benefit a a strong middle class.

God speed!

[UNI88]

Santos is getting roasted on Twitter ...

[UNI88]

Here you go again cherry picking which points to dispute ...

So Reagan's tax cuts were bad and Reagan's SS payroll tax hikes were also bad? Poor guy can't catch a break, you're going to blame him regardless of what he did.

You have provided nothing of substance to convince me that what Reagan did was the cause of current ills or that what you advocate for is the solution.

Or you could answer how they were used and what was good about them.

The tax cuts were bad for the deficit long term. The philosophy…his success in pitching small government and trickle down theory have been embraced ever since. The low taxes and continued debt growth have never really gone away.

I’m open to hear your arguments for the pros and cons of his SS payroll tax increases. I’ll approach it with an open mind but remember, I believe strongly in economics that benefit a a strong middle class.

God speed!

If you can't understand that a 50-70% federal income tax rate is bad for the kind of risk taking that drives growth and innovation and ultimately greater federal tax revenue then you're too daft to debate this with.

As Chizzy says "we don't have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem", that is driving our deficit and debt.

[Winterborn]

Here you go again cherry picking which points to dispute ...

So Reagan's tax cuts were bad and Reagan's SS payroll tax hikes were also bad? Poor guy can't catch a break, you're going to blame him regardless of what he did.

You have provided nothing of substance to convince me that what Reagan did was the cause of current ills or that what you advocate for is the solution.

That is because it is not really about Reagan.

Politics and Economics is all about people and how they function and what it takes to guide (control) their beliefs and actions. To understand that, you have to understand the average person and how they make decisions on both the macro (group) and micro (individual) level. An incomplete or misguided understanding of what makes people do what they do and their responses to certain inputs, leads to failed systems like Holy Roman Empire (religious), socialism, fascism, or communism. Democracy is also in the same boat, except like Churchill stated "is the worst form of government, except for all those others that have been tried", which is why it needs to be tempered (i.e. three branches of Government for the U.S.).

To paraphrase Churchill's quote about democracy for capitalism "it is the worst form of economic system, except for all the others that have been tried." It also needs to be tempered, but with respect to what I first mentioned in my second paragraph, it is about the people and how they function both as individuals and as a group. It is always going to be a balancing act, but more often than not, erring on the side of personal freedom leads to a better long term outcome.

No system is perfect and people are going to abuse whatever is put in place and people are going to suffer hardship under that government/economic policy. Just because we cannot design a perfect system, does not mean we cannot do our best with what we know about what works and what does not. Those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it and mixing failed systems into something that works pretty well, is a recipe for disaster.

[Winterborn]

One more quote from Churchill for people to think about.

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."