On immigration and nationalism

[kalm]

Who said this and were they wrong?

“You can go to live in France, but you cannot become a Frenchman. You can go to live in Germany or Turkey or Japan, but you cannot become a German, a Turk, or a Japanese. But anyone, from any corner of the Earth, can come to live in America and become an American. …
“This, I believe, is one of the most important sources of America's greatness. We lead the world because, unique among nations, we draw our people — our strength — from every country and every corner of the world. And by doing so we continuously renew and enrich our nation.

“While other countries cling to the stale past, here in America we breathe life into dreams. We create the future, and the world follows us into tomorrow. Thanks to each wave of new arrivals to this land of opportunity, we're a nation forever young, forever bursting with energy and new ideas, and always on the cutting edge, always leading the world to the next frontier.

“This quality is vital to our future as a nation. If we ever closed the door to new Americans, our leadership in the world would soon be lost.”

[GannonFan]

Reagan said that. And he wasn't wrong. But even with the current regime in power, people the world over still want to come to America and will continue to come to America. Remember, there'll be a new President in the White House in January of 2029. America will continue to be a vibrant and ever-changing country (which adds to it being messy as well) and yes, that does make it vastly different than almost every other country in the world.

[UNI88]

Reagan said that. And he wasn't wrong. But even with the current regime in power, people the world over still want to come to America and will continue to come to America. Remember, there'll be a new President in the White House in January of 2029. America will continue to be a vibrant and ever-changing country (which adds to it being messy as well) and yes, that does make it vastly different than almost every other country in the world.

You might be right but there are a lot fewer people that want to come to America than there were just 12 months ago. Some of these people are their nations' best and brightest and their coming to America for an education or to live is part of what drove our innovation and growth. Losing many of those immigrants/students will hurt America in the long-run. The odds are that we will be a lesser country than we would have been without trump 0.2.

[GannonFan]

Reagan said that. And he wasn't wrong. But even with the current regime in power, people the world over still want to come to America and will continue to come to America. Remember, there'll be a new President in the White House in January of 2029. America will continue to be a vibrant and ever-changing country (which adds to it being messy as well) and yes, that does make it vastly different than almost every other country in the world.

You might be right but there are a lot fewer people that want to come to America than there were just 12 months ago. Some of these people are their nations' best and brightest and their coming to America for an education or to live is part of what drove our innovation and growth. Losing many of those immigrants/students will hurt America in the long-run. The odds are that we will be a lesser country than we would have been without trump 0.2.

Sure, but it's a 4 year blip versus 250 years of history. Does that matter? Sure. Do I wish Trump wasn't the President? Sure. Will it forever make America closed off and forever change the view of a large percentage of the world's population that life in America for them and their children is better than where they live now? Absolutely not. American history is replete with nativism movements pushing back against the next wave of immigration to America, and in every instance those nativism movements fell apart and future immigration won. And that will be the case here as well. But yeah, it could suck for a couple of years.

[Bobcat]

Personally I love that people DONT want to come here. We need to be more isolationist for 30-50 years

[GannonFan]

Personally I love that people DONT want to come here. We need to be more isolationist for 30-50 years

Well, if history is any lesson, yours is a viewpoint that will be overwhelmed by the opposing side. And America is better for that.

[Bobcat]

Cool, I don't care

[UNI88]

You might be right but there are a lot fewer people that want to come to America than there were just 12 months ago. Some of these people are their nations' best and brightest and their coming to America for an education or to live is part of what drove our innovation and growth. Losing many of those immigrants/students will hurt America in the long-run. The odds are that we will be a lesser country than we would have been without trump 0.2.

Sure, but it's a 4 year blip versus 250 years of history. Does that matter? Sure. Do I wish Trump wasn't the President? Sure. Will it forever make America closed off and forever change the view of a large percentage of the world's population that life in America for them and their children is better than where they live now? Absolutely not. American history is replete with nativism movements pushing back against the next wave of immigration to America, and in every instance those nativism movements fell apart and future immigration won. And that will be the case here as well. But yeah, it could suck for a couple of years.

From a big picture perspective, you are correct. My concern is what if one of those people who don't come would have been the one to create the next Google or cure cancer. What if they go to Europe or China and create whatever they're going to create there instead? What if they don't move and their creative juices aren't allowed to flourish?

Call it the butterfly effect, compounding, etc. but innovations tend to build on prior innovations and like money, compound over time. IMO, losing them will be more than a blip.

This country has been successful because we have/had an environment where people were welcome, innovation was encouraged and hard work was rewarded. We're going to miss out on attracting many of the world's best and brightest as a result of trump's policies and our innovation and competitiveness will suffer. This is the opposite of making America great again.

[Bobcat]

Cool! Now do abortion!

[GannonFan]

Sure, but it's a 4 year blip versus 250 years of history. Does that matter? Sure. Do I wish Trump wasn't the President? Sure. Will it forever make America closed off and forever change the view of a large percentage of the world's population that life in America for them and their children is better than where they live now? Absolutely not. American history is replete with nativism movements pushing back against the next wave of immigration to America, and in every instance those nativism movements fell apart and future immigration won. And that will be the case here as well. But yeah, it could suck for a couple of years.

From a big picture perspective, you are correct. My concern is what if one of those people who don't come would have been the one to create the next Google or cure cancer. What if they go to Europe or China and create whatever they're going to create there instead? What if they don't move and their creative juices aren't allowed to flourish?

Call it the butterfly effect, compounding, etc. but innovations tend to build on prior innovations and like money, compound over time. IMO, losing them will be more than a blip.

This country has been successful because we have/had an environment where people were welcome, innovation was encouraged and hard work was rewarded. We're going to miss out on attracting many of the world's best and brightest as a result of trump's policies and our innovation and competitiveness will suffer. This is the opposite of making America great again.

If that was our motivating principles, then we should have absolutely no restriction on immigration. Heck, we should be sending out ships and planes now to try to bring in as many people as possible until everyone lives in the US. First of all, no one is immigrating to China. They don't take in immigrants because they are even more racist and bigoted than bobcat is. And Europe has been closing their doors to immigration far more than we have and for longer. Also for the same racist reasons. Yes, it would be a shame and a travesty if the future creator of the cancer vaccine didn't get to create it because they aren't allowed into US under stricter immigration enforcement. But we haven't had unlimited immigration to this country since maybe the early 1800's, if we ever had unlimited immigration - there's always been a chance we blocked the wrong person.

[UNI88]

From a big picture perspective, you are correct. My concern is what if one of those people who don't come would have been the one to create the next Google or cure cancer. What if they go to Europe or China and create whatever they're going to create there instead? What if they don't move and their creative juices aren't allowed to flourish?

Call it the butterfly effect, compounding, etc. but innovations tend to build on prior innovations and like money, compound over time. IMO, losing them will be more than a blip.

This country has been successful because we have/had an environment where people were welcome, innovation was encouraged and hard work was rewarded. We're going to miss out on attracting many of the world's best and brightest as a result of trump's policies and our innovation and competitiveness will suffer. This is the opposite of making America great again.

If that was our motivating principles, then we should have absolutely no restriction on immigration. Heck, we should be sending out ships and planes now to try to bring in as many people as possible until everyone lives in the US. First of all, no one is immigrating to China. They don't take in immigrants because they are even more racist and bigoted than bobcat is. And Europe has been closing their doors to immigration far more than we have and for longer. Also for the same racist reasons. Yes, it would be a shame and a travesty if the future creator of the cancer vaccine didn't get to create it because they aren't allowed into US under stricter immigration enforcement. But we haven't had unlimited immigration to this country since maybe the early 1800's, if we ever had unlimited immigration - there's always been a chance we blocked the wrong person.

You can make that argument and it would be consistent with traditional libertarian principles.

I would argue that there is a limit to how many immigrants the US can realistically absorb at a time and that there are also safety and security reasons (drugs, terrorists, etc.) to secure our borders and screen immigrants.

IMO biden took it too far one way and trump is taking it too far the other. biden's immigration policies hurt harris in the 2024 election. We'll see if trump's hurt Republicans in 2026 and 2028.

The happy medium is allowing and encouraging some immigration, especially by the world's best and brightest.

[GannonFan]

If that was our motivating principles, then we should have absolutely no restriction on immigration. Heck, we should be sending out ships and planes now to try to bring in as many people as possible until everyone lives in the US. First of all, no one is immigrating to China. They don't take in immigrants because they are even more racist and bigoted than bobcat is. And Europe has been closing their doors to immigration far more than we have and for longer. Also for the same racist reasons. Yes, it would be a shame and a travesty if the future creator of the cancer vaccine didn't get to create it because they aren't allowed into US under stricter immigration enforcement. But we haven't had unlimited immigration to this country since maybe the early 1800's, if we ever had unlimited immigration - there's always been a chance we blocked the wrong person.

You can make that argument and it would be consistent with traditional libertarian principles.

I would argue that there is a limit to how many immigrants the US can realistically absorb at a time and that there are also safety and security reasons (drugs, terrorists, etc.) to secure our borders and screen immigrants.

IMO biden took it too far one way and trump is taking it too far the other. The happy medium is allowing and encouraging some immigration, especially by the world's best and brightest.

I'm all in favor of a much bigger window of immigration. Make the paths that are legal to enter this country a little wider, bring in more people, and severely punish any attempts at illegal immigration. With that said, be careful about the best and brightest. There are plenty of examples of children from poor families who came here without being labeled the best and the brightest and, once able to get an education as kids rather than doing everything to find food and stay alive, only then turn into the best and the brightest.

[UNI88]

You can make that argument and it would be consistent with traditional libertarian principles.

I would argue that there is a limit to how many immigrants the US can realistically absorb at a time and that there are also safety and security reasons (drugs, terrorists, etc.) to secure our borders and screen immigrants.

IMO biden took it too far one way and trump is taking it too far the other. The happy medium is allowing and encouraging some immigration, especially by the world's best and brightest.

I'm all in favor of a much bigger window of immigration. Make the paths that are legal to enter this country a little wider, bring in more people, and severely punish any attempts at illegal immigration. With that said, be careful about the best and brightest. There are plenty of examples of children from poor families who came here without being labeled the best and the brightest and, once able to get an education as kids rather than doing everything to find food and stay alive, only then turn into the best and the brightest.

I agree. I've spent plenty of time with people who immigrated here from Mexico, Central and South America. Their drive for a better life for them and their family adds something of value to our melting pot as well and one of them could very well be the person to cure cancer or create the next Google.

[Bobcat]

or be the next murderer, rapist or CDL driver that cant read signs printed in English!

[GannonFan]

or be the next murderer, rapist or CDL driver that cant read signs printed in English!

Fortunately for you, being a racist and a bigot are allowed in this country too. Freedom of expression. White folks who speak English just fine commit plenty of crimes too.

[UNI88]

or be the next murderer, rapist or CDL driver that cant read signs printed in English!

Fortunately for you, being a racist and a bigot are allowed in this country too. Freedom of expression. White folks who speak English just fine commit plenty of crimes too.

Any white person could be the next Timothy McVeigh, Dylann Roof, Robert Bowers, John Earnest, Ashli Babbitt, etc.

[Bobcat]

or be the next murderer, rapist or CDL driver that cant read signs printed in English!

Fortunately for you, being a racist and a bigot are allowed in this country too. Freedom of expression. White folks who speak English just fine commit plenty of crimes too.

I cant be racist I'm not white. I didn't make the rules I just play by them

[Bobcat]

Fortunately for you, being a racist and a bigot are allowed in this country too. Freedom of expression. White folks who speak English just fine commit plenty of crimes too.

Any white person could be the next Timothy McVeigh, Dylann Roof, Robert Bowers, John Earnest, Ashli Babbitt, etc.

Nice list of victims, real sharp you are

[Caribbean Hen]

Who said this and were they wrong?

“You can go to live in France, but you cannot become a Frenchman. You can go to live in Germany or Turkey or Japan, but you cannot become a German, a Turk, or a Japanese. But anyone, from any corner of the Earth, can come to live in America and become an American. …
“This, I believe, is one of the most important sources of America's greatness. We lead the world because, unique among nations, we draw our people — our strength — from every country and every corner of the world. And by doing so we continuously renew and enrich our nation.

“While other countries cling to the stale past, here in America we breathe life into dreams. We create the future, and the world follows us into tomorrow. Thanks to each wave of new arrivals to this land of opportunity, we're a nation forever young, forever bursting with energy and new ideas, and always on the cutting edge, always leading the world to the next frontier.

“This quality is vital to our future as a nation. If we ever closed the door to new Americans, our leadership in the world would soon be lost.”

I used this example all the time when I lived in Puerto Rico and I lived there a long time on three different occasions.

I would tell my Puerto Rican friends that a person of any nationality can come to United States and be an American however, speaking for myself, I’ve been here for 10 years now and I’m still not accepted as a Puerto Rican they loved me and I loved them but I could never be accepted as a Puerto Rican

However, Joe bozo‘s idiotic open border policy for four years was not the way to go… they did it for votes and power.

Obviously, we let in way too many criminals and we still don’t know who is actually here and what’s actually coming

One other observation, I love it when people who would never even dream of living in a neighborhood that is predominantly black and Latino get some type of high by calling somebody a racist… the most overused word in the English language right now … the race Baiters just won’t let it die because they would be unemployed

[Bobcat]

When people call me a racist I know I have won. I also don't care that they try and label me that because it doesn't mean anything anymore. They ruined it. Cool, I'm racist. Now what?

[GannonFan]

When people call me a racist I know I have won. I also don't care that they try and label me that because it doesn't mean anything anymore. They ruined it. Cool, I'm racist. Now what?

You won what? You judge people by the color of their skin and the group of people they belong to based on that skin color. Is there a prize for that? You want an atta' boy? It's not a label, it's what you do.

[Bobcat]

I don't judge anyone, I get called racial epithets monthly but none of it matters to me. I'm not weak and I don't let weak people control me. Whatever argument or debate I am in the minute somebody drops the race card, its over. They lost they think I'm gonna backtrack and trip over my dick apologizing like liberal white women want us too. They want us on the plantation and to shut our mouths. Not gonna happen

[DSUrocks07]

Minorities immigration = "acceptance and inclusiveness"
White immigration = "colonization and genocide"

You see it already in the US, when white people move to minority neighborhoods, its called gentrification, and cultural appropriation.



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[GannonFan]

Minorities immigration = "acceptance and inclusiveness"
White immigration = "colonization and genocide"

You see it already in the US, when white people move to minority neighborhoods, its called gentrification, and cultural appropriation.



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I will say that cultural appropriation is one of the weirder critiques. I do understand it, like when people said Elvis recording and releasing music that black artists already did and him getting credit and adulation for it when the black artists didn't. But even in that case, most of those making that claim ignore the fact that Elvis grew up in that culture (a mix of white and black) and for him, that was his music since that's what he grew up with. It's always weird because when cultures mix, there will always be the mixing of everything in those cultures - the languages, the clothes, the music, the food, etc. People that decry cultural appropriation seem to almost want segregation rather than integration. Very odd.