I'll punch you!BDKJMU wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:48 amGF is right here..GannonFan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:27 am
Lithuania can do whatever the heck they want to do. Russia doesn't own the ground in Lithuania. They have no inherent right to have rail access through that country. If Russia wants to ship things that are on the sanctioned list (and there are plenty of things, including passengers, that aren't on the sanction list so there is plenty that can be shipped through Lithuania at this time) the Russia can put them on a boat and sail those things to Kaliningrad. No one's blockading anything, there's free access through the Baltic. But if you're going to be a belligerent nation who launches offensive wars of destruction on your neighbors in an attempt to take territory and build an empire, then you have to realize that not everyone is going to play nice with you.
The Ukraine Crisis
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis
No. You're the one that posted "So now we have the EU and Lithuania changing the rules."SeattleGriz wrote:So you're in the rules based instead of law based. What happens when the rules change in a bad way for you, or America?
The mob mentality is seductive.
Russia has repeatedly demonstrated that it can't be trusted.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis
What does your idea of past transgressions have to do with Lithuania? Russia isn't even bothering them.UNI88 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:01 pmNo. You're the one that posted "So now we have the EU and Lithuania changing the rules."SeattleGriz wrote:
So you're in the rules based instead of law based. What happens when the rules change in a bad way for you, or America?
The mob mentality is seductive.
Russia has repeatedly demonstrated that it can't be trusted.
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If Lithuania and the EU agreed to terms, they don't get to change the agreement because of hurt feelings. If you don't abide by laws and agreements, you have mob rule.
Let's change this up.
Please tell me of the last conflict the US was involved in that met deliverables.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis
Circular logic. The most egregious violation of laws and agreements was by Putin. If we have mob rule, he's responsible.SeattleGriz wrote:What does your idea of past transgressions have to do with Lithuania? Russia isn't even bothering them.
If Lithuania and the EU agreed to terms, they don't get to change the agreement because of hurt feelings. If you don't abide by laws and agreements, you have mob rule.
Let's change this up.
Please tell me of the last conflict the US was involved in that met deliverables.
Stop trying to deflect the spotlight away from Vlad.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis
Circular logic.UNI88 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:43 pmCircular logic. The most egregious violation of laws and agreements was by Putin. If we have mob rule, he's responsible.SeattleGriz wrote:
What does your idea of past transgressions have to do with Lithuania? Russia isn't even bothering them.
If Lithuania and the EU agreed to terms, they don't get to change the agreement because of hurt feelings. If you don't abide by laws and agreements, you have mob rule.
Let's change this up.
Please tell me of the last conflict the US was involved in that met deliverables.
Stop trying to deflect the spotlight away from Vlad.
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How about some links to back up all your claims?
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis
SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:25 pmThe issue, as I'm understanding it, is that Russia and Lithuania have an agreement with wording that specifies how this agreement can be severed, and this isn't how it's done. In addition, the materials being transported were not listed as items the EU was sanctioning. So now we have the EU and Lithuania changing the rules.GannonFan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:27 am
Lithuania can do whatever the heck they want to do. Russia doesn't own the ground in Lithuania. They have no inherent right to have rail access through that country. If Russia wants to ship things that are on the sanctioned list (and there are plenty of things, including passengers, that aren't on the sanction list so there is plenty that can be shipped through Lithuania at this time) the Russia can put them on a boat and sail those things to Kaliningrad. No one's blockading anything, there's free access through the Baltic. But if you're going to be a belligerent nation who launches offensive wars of destruction on your neighbors in an attempt to take territory and build an empire, then you have to realize that not everyone is going to play nice with you.
It's a little extreme, but what happens when the mob determines what rules they want to make and keep?
January 6?
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis
Lets. Why doesn't Putin withdraw his invasion force from Ukraine?SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:05 pmWhat does your idea of past transgressions have to do with Lithuania? Russia isn't even bothering them.
If Lithuania and the EU agreed to terms, they don't get to change the agreement because of hurt feelings. If you don't abide by laws and agreements, you have mob rule.
Let's change this up.
Please tell me of the last conflict the US was involved in that met deliverables.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis
You need links to show that Putin and Russia invaded Ukraine (the most egregious violation of laws and agreements) without substantive provocation?SeattleGriz wrote:Circular logic.
How about some links to back up all your claims?
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis
You keep making all these claims that Russia has invaded this, or broken that, but no links. I'm just trying to understand what you are specifically talking about so we are talking the same subject.UNI88 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:52 pmYou need links to show that Putin and Russia invaded Ukraine (the most egregious violation of laws and agreements) without substantive provocation?SeattleGriz wrote:
Circular logic.
How about some links to back up all your claims?
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It's not that I don't believe you, it's that I'm not quite sure on the history. Remember, 45 minutes to a mushroom cloud took us to the Iraq war. Did we find WNDs? I believed there were WMDs, but now we all know it was an "intelligence failure". Just like that intelligence failure when we droned that Afghani man and his eight kids collecting water right before leaving Afghanistan.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis
Believing that Putin and Russia didn't invade is Q level conspiracy theory level sh!t. I'm not going to bother looking for links to prove they invaded.SeattleQriz wrote:You keep making all these claims that Russia has invaded this, or broken that, but no links. I'm just trying to understand what you are specifically talking about so we are talking the same subject.
It's not that I don't believe you, it's that I'm not quite sure on the history. Remember right before the troops left Afghanistan? Remember our intelligence forces targeting the Afghani and then vaporizing his whole family because he was collecting/passing out water? Or 45 minutes to a mushroom cloud led to the Iraq war and how many countless civilians were droned or bombed? We find those WMDs? At this point, I'm not sure I trust much that comes out of our government.
Afghanistan and Iraq are deflections.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis
I didn't say he didn't invade. I was asking for your list of past Putin transgressions that show he has a track record of saying one thing and then doing another.UNI88 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:23 amBelieving that Putin and Russia didn't invade is Q level conspiracy theory level sh!t. I'm not going to bother looking for links to prove they invaded.SeattleQriz wrote:
You keep making all these claims that Russia has invaded this, or broken that, but no links. I'm just trying to understand what you are specifically talking about so we are talking the same subject.
It's not that I don't believe you, it's that I'm not quite sure on the history. Remember right before the troops left Afghanistan? Remember our intelligence forces targeting the Afghani and then vaporizing his whole family because he was collecting/passing out water? Or 45 minutes to a mushroom cloud led to the Iraq war and how many countless civilians were droned or bombed? We find those WMDs? At this point, I'm not sure I trust much that comes out of our government.
Afghanistan and Iraq are deflections.
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How are US fuckups a distraction? Because it's okay when the US trots into some third world country and completely over turns it for faulty reasons? It matters because we are talking about justification for starting shit.
If you are going to hold Putin accountable, are you holding the US to the same level of accountability?
Do I think Putin uses really weak excuses and subterfuge to skirt international law? You bet. But does the US pull the same shit when they want. Yes.
Look at Yugoslavia. That was a NATO war that was not UN approved, but hey, it's okay!
Maybe I'm looking at it too formulaic by expecting there to be some standard, but all I'm seeing is as long as you're on the right team, you get to make up rules as you go.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis
The US has been a bad actor and often for corporate gain rather than in support of democracy and virtue.SeattleGriz wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:10 amI didn't say he didn't invade. I was asking for your list of past Putin transgressions that show he has a track record of saying one thing and then doing another.
How are US fuckups a distraction? Because it's okay when the US trots into some third world country and completely over turns it for faulty reasons? It matters because we are talking about justification for starting shit.
If you are going to hold Putin accountable, are you holding the US to the same level of accountability?
Do I think Putin uses really weak excuses and subterfuge to skirt international law? You bet. But does the US pull the same shit when they want. Yes.
Look at Yugoslavia. That was a NATO war that was not UN approved, but hey, it's okay!
Maybe I'm looking at it too formulaic by expecting there to be some standard, but all I'm seeing is as long as you're on the right team, you get to make up rules as you go.
Putin is still 100% responsible here.
You can recognize both. It’s really not that hard.
Not to mention, war relegates standards even more meaningless.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis
Well, there was Bosnia-Herzgovenia. NATO didn’t start that, but intervended even though no NATO country was attacked.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis
How is repeatedly bringing up US (or NATO) actions in a thread about Ukraine not a deflection or attempted hijack?SeattleGriz wrote:I didn't say he didn't invade. I was asking for your list of past Putin transgressions that show he has a track record of saying one thing and then doing another.
How are US fuckups a distraction? Because it's okay when the US trots into some third world country and completely over turns it for faulty reasons? It matters because we are talking about justification for starting shit.
If you are going to hold Putin accountable, are you holding the US to the same level of accountability?
Do I think Putin uses really weak excuses and subterfuge to skirt international law? You bet. But does the US pull the same shit when they want. Yes.
Look at Yugoslavia. That was a NATO war that was not UN approved, but hey, it's okay!
Maybe I'm looking at it too formulaic by expecting there to be some standard, but all I'm seeing is as long as you're on the right team, you get to make up rules as you go.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis
SG is approaching JSO crazy in this thread. Russia invaded Ukraine with the express interest of expanding their empire. They've actually said it. False equivalencies with the US/Iraq (we never mentioned Iraq, and we never took permanently any part of Iraq) are just weak attempts to get around the very simple narrative which, actually, is true - Russia was never in danger of being attacked and they attacked Ukraine without provocation for the simple fact that they wanted to dominate a weaker neighbor and take their land. All the protestations can't get around that very simple fact.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis
I've been following both sides to get a picture of what is going on over there. As with most issues, you have to read between the lines to get the true story. Unfortunately for Ukraine, the gaslighting and propaganda can't cover for what is really happening on the ground anymore.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis
And now NATO is siding in a war that isn't a NATO member...but don't tell that to Ganny.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis
Because NATO is poking around and supporting a country that isn't a NATO member. People seem to be conflating Russian actions against Ukraine (as unfounded and belligerent as they are) as direct acts against NATO or a NATO member.UNI88 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:19 pmHow is repeatedly bringing up US (or NATO) actions in a thread about Ukraine not a deflection or attempted hijack?SeattleGriz wrote:
I didn't say he didn't invade. I was asking for your list of past Putin transgressions that show he has a track record of saying one thing and then doing another.
How are US fuckups a distraction? Because it's okay when the US trots into some third world country and completely over turns it for faulty reasons? It matters because we are talking about justification for starting shit.
If you are going to hold Putin accountable, are you holding the US to the same level of accountability?
Do I think Putin uses really weak excuses and subterfuge to skirt international law? You bet. But does the US pull the same shit when they want. Yes.
Look at Yugoslavia. That was a NATO war that was not UN approved, but hey, it's okay!
Maybe I'm looking at it too formulaic by expecting there to be some standard, but all I'm seeing is as long as you're on the right team, you get to make up rules as you go.
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There's a difference between Russia attacking a NATO member and attacking a non-NATO member. People seem to be forgetting that context.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis
BTW, rout is on in the Donbass. Sounds like a total collapse of Ukrainian forces.
Last edited by SDHornet on Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis
So what does what the US did in Iraq or Afghanistan or NATO did in Bosnia have to do with Ukraine and why are they repeatedly brought up in a thread about Ukraine?SDHornet wrote:Because NATO is poking around and supporting a country that isn't a NATO member. People seem to be conflating Russian actions against Ukraine (as unfounded and belligerent as they are) as direct acts against NATO or a NATO member.
There's a difference between Russia attacking a NATO member and attacking a non-NATO member. People seem to be forgetting that context.
If someone feels strongly that US transgressions and hypocrisy need to be discussed they should start a thread about them.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis
But then he’d be agreeing with the left…UNI88 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:47 amSo what does what the US did in Iraq or Afghanistan or NATO did in Bosnia have to do with Ukraine and why are they repeatedly brought up in a thread about Ukraine?SDHornet wrote:
Because NATO is poking around and supporting a country that isn't a NATO member. People seem to be conflating Russian actions against Ukraine (as unfounded and belligerent as they are) as direct acts against NATO or a NATO member.
There's a difference between Russia attacking a NATO member and attacking a non-NATO member. People seem to be forgetting that context.
If someone feels strongly that US transgressions and hypocrisy need to be discussed they should start a thread about them.
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Re: The Ukraine Crisis
A weaker neighbor that the Russian man in the street can't help but notice enjoys a better lifestyle than he doesGannonFan wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:47 pm SG is approaching JSO crazy in this thread. Russia invaded Ukraine with the express interest of expanding their empire. They've actually said it. False equivalencies with the US/Iraq (we never mentioned Iraq, and we never took permanently any part of Iraq) are just weak attempts to get around the very simple narrative which, actually, is true - Russia was never in danger of being attacked and they attacked Ukraine without provocation for the simple fact that they wanted to dominate a weaker neighbor and take their land. All the protestations can't get around that very simple fact.
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