2020 Democratic Nomination Process Mega-thread

[Pwns]

Bootydredge's problem is that it's not 2008 anymore. You can't be a blank-slate, Rorschach test candidate where people can write what they want and expect to win. Guys like Trump and Sanders leave no ambiguity whatsoever who they are and that's why they win. That doesn't men Pete would be a bad choice for the nominee, it's just the way the political winds are blowing.

BTW:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video ... obama.html

[Ibanez]

I thought the few times he was able to get a word in last night during the reenactment of Grumpy Old Men , that he mad some good points. Especially how a socialist at the top of the ticket could affect down ballot races.

Like I said...easy when you don’t have any policies of your own.

I'm going to a Pete Town Hall tomorrow. We'll see.

[kalm]

Like I said...easy when you don’t have any policies of your own.

I'm going to a Pete Town Hall tomorrow. We'll see.

Nerd

[kalm]

Bootydredge's problem is that it's not 2008 anymore. You can't be a blank-slate, Rorschach test candidate where people can write what they want and expect to win. Guys like Trump and Sanders leave no ambiguity whatsoever who they are and that's why they win. That doesn't men Pete would be a bad choice for the nominee, it's just the way the political winds are blowing.

BTW:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video ... obama.html

Do you think it has something to do with populism driven political establishment fatigue?

[Ibanez]

I'm going to a Pete Town Hall tomorrow. We'll see.

Nerd

Aside from being a delegate to the SC Democratic Convention in 2008, I haven't been to any other Democratic event.


And you better believe i'm gonna try and get into the GOP convention this July. It'll be held across the street from my office.

[kalm]

Nerd

Aside from being a delegate to the SC Democratic Convention in 2008, I haven't been to any other Democratic event.


And you better believe i'm gonna try and get into the GOP convention this July. It'll be held across the street from my office.

Double nerd!

[GannonFan]

You've got a moderate person talking about the reality of things, not pandering to groups by promising reparations or medicare for all or loan forgiveness and HE'S a shill? Sanders and Warrens are shills for special interests and extremists. What's your point?

Yes, he is a shill. Biggest one out there, with nothing to actually say.

"Moderates" have completely lost America, and deservedly so. You want to talk extreme? Moderates have created an extreme system where prisons are privatized, people resort to GoFundMe for bills, people choose between crushing debt or going to the hospital, productivity's grown but only the rich profit, corporations are valued instead of the environment, young people can't afford homes or families, manufacturers sold out employees for stockholders, students graduate with tens-of-thousands in debt, contractors are running the military, and whatever else I've forgotten. And Americans have grown into this radical system like a cooked frog.

"Moderates" simply have to look at themselves in the mirror to figure out why their policies are circling the drain. The rise of populism is their doing. The rise of Trump is their doing. The rise of Sanders is their doing.

There's nothing extreme when people push for government to return back to form, which is representing the working class.

What a load of nonsense. There are times when you just open up and it's amazing how cultish and robotic you've become. I'd ask you to come down off your high horse for a real discussion, but you've probably super-glued yourself into that saddle and you're going to ride it to the bitter end.

The rise of populism is easy to point a finger at and explain - it's because it's easy. Being an extremist is great - you don't have to justify anything or support your position because you already are convinced you're 100% correct. Even better, anyone who voices something in opposition to you can be dismissed because you know they are 0% correct. And once you're in that bubble of self-created infallibility then anything is fair game. Trump can lie 24/7 because his extremists are too busy wearing MAGA hats and attending rallies. Sanders can promise free everything with no cost because his extremists are sure that salvation from all work and worry are just an election away. There's very little thinking that goes on in extremists circles, just emotion. Of course, that's why often very little gets done with extremists. It feels good, but it doesn't go anywhere. Our culture at this point is ripe for extremism, and the beauty of social media is that it's a perfect vehicle to brandish and be proud of your unyielding positions on any and everything. The messy work of working with people with opposing views and trying to craft ideas and institutions that actually work is so mundane and boring compared to unabashed self-righteousness.

[CAA Flagship]

Like I said...easy when you don’t have any policies of your own.

I'm going to a Pete Town Hall tomorrow. We'll see.

Emanate your pride.

[kalm]

Yes, he is a shill. Biggest one out there, with nothing to actually say.

"Moderates" have completely lost America, and deservedly so. You want to talk extreme? Moderates have created an extreme system where prisons are privatized, people resort to GoFundMe for bills, people choose between crushing debt or going to the hospital, productivity's grown but only the rich profit, corporations are valued instead of the environment, young people can't afford homes or families, manufacturers sold out employees for stockholders, students graduate with tens-of-thousands in debt, contractors are running the military, and whatever else I've forgotten. And Americans have grown into this radical system like a cooked frog.

"Moderates" simply have to look at themselves in the mirror to figure out why their policies are circling the drain. The rise of populism is their doing. The rise of Trump is their doing. The rise of Sanders is their doing.

There's nothing extreme when people push for government to return back to form, which is representing the working class.

What a load of nonsense. There are times when you just open up and it's amazing how cultish and robotic you've become. I'd ask you to come down off your high horse for a real discussion, but you've probably super-glued yourself into that saddle and you're going to ride it to the bitter end.

The rise of populism is easy to point a finger at and explain - it's because it's easy. Being an extremist is great - you don't have to justify anything or support your position because you already are convinced you're 100% correct. Even better, anyone who voices something in opposition to you can be dismissed because you know they are 0% correct. And once you're in that bubble of self-created infallibility then anything is fair game. Trump can lie 24/7 because his extremists are too busy wearing MAGA hats and attending rallies. Sanders can promise free everything with no cost because his extremists are sure that salvation from all work and worry are just an election away. There's very little thinking that goes on in extremists circles, just emotion. Of course, that's why often very little gets done with extremists. It feels good, but it doesn't go anywhere. Our culture at this point is ripe for extremism, and the beauty of social media is that it's a perfect vehicle to brandish and be proud of your unyielding positions on any and everything. The messy work of working with people with opposing views and trying to craft ideas and institutions that actually work is so mundane and boring compared to unabashed self-righteousness.

Some solid points but extremely overstated . Languishing in the status quo also has its faults. Complacency for the sake of moderation (aka conservatism) can delay necessary changes and lead to entrenched power. It happens with industries replaced by improved technology (horse and buggy) and governance (hey...why are all these peasants suddenly so mad?).

Evolve or die is true to a point.

[93henfan]

Like I said...easy when you don’t have any policies of your own.

I'm going to a Pete Town Hall tomorrow. We'll see.

Watch out for your corn hole, bud!

[∞∞∞]

The rise of populism is easy to point a finger at and explain - it's because it's easy. Being an extremist is great - you don't have to justify anything or support your position because you already are convinced you're 100% correct. Even better, anyone who voices something in opposition to you can be dismissed because you know they are 0% correct. And once you're in that bubble of self-created infallibility then anything is fair game.

Man, it's like you're describing yourself to the T right there. You love to interject and say everyone is wrong, although you only go after progressives ('cause you're a conservative despite pretending to be some enlightened centrist).

And populism isn't easy; look at the overwhelming work which needs to be done to actually reform the gov't. Taking the moderate position is the easy way out 'cause as long as you're ok with your life, you can close your eyes and pretend fellow Americans aren't hurting.

But hey GF, continue voting for your milquetoast centrists while people feel their concerns are disregarded by the establishment.

[Winterborn]

The rise of populism is easy to point a finger at and explain - it's because it's easy. Being an extremist is great - you don't have to justify anything or support your position because you already are convinced you're 100% correct. Even better, anyone who voices something in opposition to you can be dismissed because you know they are 0% correct. And once you're in that bubble of self-created infallibility then anything is fair game.

Man, it's like you're describing yourself to the T right there. You love to interject and say everyone is wrong, although you only go after progressives ('cause you're a conservative despite pretending to be some enlightened centrist).

And populism isn't easy; look at the overwhelming work which needs to be done to actually reform the gov't. Taking the moderate position is the easy way out 'cause as long as you're ok with your life, you can close your eyes and pretend fellow Americans aren't hurting.

But hey GF, continue voting for your milquetoast centrists while people feel their concerns are disregarded by the establishment.

I would propose that being a moderate/centralist is harder as you have to consider and understand both sides of the argument. It is easy to pick a side and say anybody who doesn't agree with you is wrong and just ignore them. But to truly understand a particular issue you have to see all the sides and understand where they are coming from. Life is grey, never black and white.

[UNI88]

You've got a moderate person talking about the reality of things, not pandering to groups by promising reparations or medicare for all or loan forgiveness and HE'S a shill? Sanders and Warrens are shills for special interests and extremists. What's your point?

Yes, he is a shill. Biggest one out there, with nothing to actually say.

"Moderates" have completely lost America, and deservedly so. You want to talk extreme? Moderates have created an extreme system where prisons are privatized, people resort to GoFundMe for bills, people choose between crushing debt or going to the hospital, productivity's grown but only the rich profit, corporations are valued instead of the environment, young people can't afford homes or families, manufacturers sold out employees for stockholders, students graduate with tens-of-thousands in debt, contractors are running the military, and whatever else I've forgotten. And Americans have grown into this radical system like a cooked frog.

"Moderates" simply have to look at themselves in the mirror to figure out why their policies are circling the drain. The rise of populism is their doing. The rise of Trump is their doing. The rise of Sanders is their doing.

There's nothing extreme when people push for government to return back to form, which is representing the working class.

And the rise of Trump and Sanders will be our undoing?

[UNI88]

What a load of nonsense. There are times when you just open up and it's amazing how cultish and robotic you've become. I'd ask you to come down off your high horse for a real discussion, but you've probably super-glued yourself into that saddle and you're going to ride it to the bitter end.

The rise of populism is easy to point a finger at and explain - it's because it's easy. Being an extremist is great - you don't have to justify anything or support your position because you already are convinced you're 100% correct. Even better, anyone who voices something in opposition to you can be dismissed because you know they are 0% correct. And once you're in that bubble of self-created infallibility then anything is fair game. Trump can lie 24/7 because his extremists are too busy wearing MAGA hats and attending rallies. Sanders can promise free everything with no cost because his extremists are sure that salvation from all work and worry are just an election away. There's very little thinking that goes on in extremists circles, just emotion. Of course, that's why often very little gets done with extremists. It feels good, but it doesn't go anywhere. Our culture at this point is ripe for extremism, and the beauty of social media is that it's a perfect vehicle to brandish and be proud of your unyielding positions on any and everything. The messy work of working with people with opposing views and trying to craft ideas and institutions that actually work is so mundane and boring compared to unabashed self-righteousness.

Some solid points but extremely overstated . Languishing in the status quo also has its faults. Complacency for the sake of moderation (aka conservatism) can delay necessary changes and lead to entrenched power. It happens with industries replaced by improved technology (horse and buggy) and governance (hey...why are all these peasants suddenly so mad?).

Evolve or die is true to a point.

Trip's way is the dodo bird of evolutionary paths. He pretends to want a European system but that won't be far enough left. Ultimately, he, Bernie and the rest will want to follow the USSR and Venezuela model but they'll argue that we'll get it right this time.

I don't disagree with evolving the system but think we can do a lot better than following fools down the free sh!t path into oblivion.

Ganny and Winter nailed. As I've said before, the greatness of this country was achieved not because we veered to the left (compassion) or right (self reliance) but because of the interplay and compromise between the two.

[∞∞∞]

It is easy to pick a side and say anybody who doesn't agree with you is wrong and just ignore them. But to truly understand a particular issue you have to see all the sides and understand where they are coming from. Life is grey, never black and white.

Don't disagree, but this nation has shifted so far right that we've got people like GF sitting on the 20 bitching about the "extremists" on the 40.

Not you, but universal healthcare is a radical position? Give me a f*cking break.

[UNI88]

It is easy to pick a side and say anybody who doesn't agree with you is wrong and just ignore them. But to truly understand a particular issue you have to see all the sides and understand where they are coming from. Life is grey, never black and white.

Don't disagree, but this nation has shifted so far right that we've got people like GF sitting on the 20 bitching about the "extremists" on the 40.

Please provide examples of how we've shifted so far to the right. I think you're so focused on a few issues that you're missing the big picture. We've moved with fits and starts but more to the left than the right in my lifetime and I'm 53 years old.

[89Hen]

It is easy to pick a side and say anybody who doesn't agree with you is wrong and just ignore them. But to truly understand a particular issue you have to see all the sides and understand where they are coming from. Life is grey, never black and white.

Don't disagree, but this nation has shifted so far right that we've got people like GF sitting on the 20 bitching about the "extremists" on the 40.

Not you, but universal healthcare is a radical position? Give me a f*cking break.

How have we shifted far right? I'd say on most social issues we're swung much more to the left: gay marriage and gender issues, marijuana legalization, push for more gun laws, etc...

And taking away people's healthcare so you can provide an inferior product to everyone is a radical position Trip.

[GannonFan]

What a load of nonsense. There are times when you just open up and it's amazing how cultish and robotic you've become. I'd ask you to come down off your high horse for a real discussion, but you've probably super-glued yourself into that saddle and you're going to ride it to the bitter end.

The rise of populism is easy to point a finger at and explain - it's because it's easy. Being an extremist is great - you don't have to justify anything or support your position because you already are convinced you're 100% correct. Even better, anyone who voices something in opposition to you can be dismissed because you know they are 0% correct. And once you're in that bubble of self-created infallibility then anything is fair game. Trump can lie 24/7 because his extremists are too busy wearing MAGA hats and attending rallies. Sanders can promise free everything with no cost because his extremists are sure that salvation from all work and worry are just an election away. There's very little thinking that goes on in extremists circles, just emotion. Of course, that's why often very little gets done with extremists. It feels good, but it doesn't go anywhere. Our culture at this point is ripe for extremism, and the beauty of social media is that it's a perfect vehicle to brandish and be proud of your unyielding positions on any and everything. The messy work of working with people with opposing views and trying to craft ideas and institutions that actually work is so mundane and boring compared to unabashed self-righteousness.

Some solid points but extremely overstated . Languishing in the status quo also has its faults. Complacency for the sake of moderation (aka conservatism) can delay necessary changes and lead to entrenched power. It happens with industries replaced by improved technology (horse and buggy) and governance (hey...why are all these peasants suddenly so mad?).

Evolve or die is true to a point.

See, that's the thing, you equate moderation with the status quo. Says who? Making compromises to build coalitions does not mean no progress. That's the trap that firebrands like Trip bury themselves so deep in that they can't see out of anymore. It may mean that you don't get everything you want the moment you want it, but that doesn't mean things are standing still. I'm a centrist and I'm in favor of basic universal health care. People aren't going to like it when we get it (those able - i.e. money - will still get better care by going private, just as they do in most universal systems) but I think we should bring that about. But when you're an extremist like the Trips of the world and you see things as an all or nothing proposition, then things like compromise and measured progress look like status quo. It's their myopia. It comes with the territory when you live all outrage all the time.

[∞∞∞]

Ganny, the US is changing so much around you that one day you're going to wake up and find that you're the extremist.

There's no compromise about people dying for having inadequate health insurance.
There's no compromise for people being thrown in jail for possession of marijuana.
There's no compromise for valuing the environment over profits.
There's no compromise for caring about science and education over the military.

I'll gladly be labeled an extremist now if it means people understand how extreme your positions are later in my life.

[89Hen]

Ganny, the US is changing so much around you that one day you're going to wake up and find that you're the extremist.

There's no compromise about people dying for having inadequate health insurance.
There's no compromise for people being thrown in jail for possession of marijuana.
There's no compromise for valuing profits over the future of the environment.
There's no compromise for valuing the military over science and education.

I'll gladly be labeled an extremist now if it means people understand how extreme your positions are later in my life.

Are you suggesting that GF is for those four things? I'm sure he will speak up to set the record straight. Trip, you're a loose cannon at best.

[∞∞∞]

Are you suggesting that GF is for those four things? I'm sure he will speak up to set the record straight. Trip, you're a loose cannon at best.

No, but he'll want to compromise about them. Because centrism or whatever.

[CAA Flagship]

Are you suggesting that GF is for those four things? I'm sure he will speak up to set the record straight. Trip, you're a loose cannon at best.

No, but he'll want to compromise about them. Because centrism or whatever.

But what makes your stance more correct than his?

[89Hen]

Are you suggesting that GF is for those four things? I'm sure he will speak up to set the record straight. Trip, you're a loose cannon at best.

No, but he'll want to compromise about them. Because centrism or whatever.

I got news for you, EVERYONE compromises on those to some extent... probably even you.

[UNI88]

Ganny, the US is changing so much around you that one day you're going to wake up and find that you're the extremist.

There's no compromise about people dying for having inadequate health insurance.
There's no compromise for people being thrown in jail for possession of marijuana.
There's no compromise for valuing the environment over profits.
There's no compromise for caring about science and education over the military.

I'll gladly be labeled an extremist now if it means people understand how extreme your positions are later in my life.

How are Ganny's positions extreme? He's willing to talk about and compromise on health care in fact he explicitly states that he is "in favor of basic universal health care." It might not be exactly what you want but which position is more extreme - insisting on what you want or being willing to talk and finding a agreeable solution? I'm not as sold on universal care but if we're going to do it, I don't think the Canadian, French or whatever system is the way to go. I think we can develop an American system that fits our needs and culture better than what they have. You want to change our culture.

I think marijuana should be decriminalized. I value the environment and I think Trump is going to far with removing protections but I also thought that Obama went too far the other way. I'm all for spending less on the military and bringing our troops home. Education should be considered infrastructure and we should invest in it but let the states decide how to spend the money because the Feds fvck it up every time they get involved (NCLB, student loans, etc.). Let's invest in and leverage NASA, DARPA, etc. to spur public and private innovation but let's not take away the incentive to take risks by taxing the sh!t out of those who succeed.

Not being willing to compromise is the extreme position and that applies to both sides.

[GannonFan]

Ganny, the US is changing so much around you that one day you're going to wake up and find that you're the extremist.

There's no compromise about people dying for having inadequate health insurance.
There's no compromise for people being thrown in jail for possession of marijuana.
There's no compromise for valuing the environment over profits.
There's no compromise for caring about science and education over the military.

I'll gladly be labeled an extremist now if it means people understand how extreme your positions are later in my life.

What positions, you didn't state any positions. Are you so extreme that you don't even need positions?

- How much health care is needed to make sure no one dies? Again, I'm for basic universal health care.
- Is there ever too much marijuana someone can have? How about 100 lbs? How about 3 tons? Again, I'm for legal weed for 21 year olds and up.
- What is the right amount of environmental protection? What specifically are you talking about? I'm pro-nuke because it lowers the carbon footprint very quickly. But I'm also for just the right amount of environmental protection that does the job, not the more is better philosophy that says we should just increase environmental protections because it feels good to say so. What's practical and does the job?
- So we shouldn't fund the military at all? How much do we cut? What's the best way to "care" about science and education more? What does that even mean? How do you measure "caring"?

This is what extremism looks like - a lot of great slogans but really wanting when it comes down to the details. Sure feels good though.