Lance Armstrong: Master Doper

[AZGrizFan]

I do admire your and GF's ability to read, process, and render decisive opinion on over 1,000 pages of testimony and evidence in less than half a day. Thanks for doing all the hard work for the rest of us.

It's called skimming. Heck, there's also that handy thing at the start of the report called the "table of contents", which includes page numbers, to help you sort through the report. What page are you up to with your method?

'93 just got bitch-slapped by GF.

[ASUG8]

I don't understand why 26 guys would fall on their swords simply to implicate LA. Hincapie lives here and has been a local hero for a long time, but him admitting his own use just to be competitive in the upper echelon of the sport was surprising.

Floyd Landis was the one who got the ball rolling after getting pinched and decided to take as many down with him as possible. Seems that it worked.

[93henfan]

Is Lance Armstrong a catholic? I'm trying to understand the motivation for the support squad in this thread for a criminal we don't have video of "in the act".

If we can't come to a consensus that he's a career juicer, can we not agree that if he wasn't, then he was just coincidentally the biggest dealer on the tour? I mean, you have page after page of every one of his colleagues saying they called up Uncle Lance whenever they ran out of their own stash. Dude had more EPO than BALCO.

[andy7171]

93 REALLY REALLY HATES Lance Armstrong!!!!!

[93henfan]

93 REALLY REALLY HATES Lance Armstrong!!!!!

Go say five Hail Mary's for Lance. He needs your support in this time of need.

On topic...

This isn't a courtroom. There's no beyond a reasonable doubt required. You have basically, oh, everyone ever associated with the guy saying he was involved in one of the most sophisticated doping schemes ever. They used to fly out of the country, mid-tour, to get fresh blood transfused into their bodies. Every teammate on the USPS team has admitted as much.

[andy7171]

[GannonFan]

93 REALLY REALLY HATES Lance Armstrong!!!!!

Go say five Hail Mary's for Lance. He needs your support in this time of need.

On topic...

This isn't a courtroom. There's no beyond a reasonable doubt required. You have basically, oh, everyone ever associated with the guy saying he was involved in one of the most sophisticated doping schemes ever. They used to fly out of the country, mid-tour, to get fresh blood transfused into their bodies. Every teammate on the USPS team has admitted as much.

But that's the thing, if you're going to call someone the "ringleader of the most sophisticated doping schemes ever" and only really target him, then you do need beyond a reasonable doubt. Stripping a guy of titles won and banning him from a sport, or any competitive sport since he's now banned from triathalons too, pretty much means you need to have rock solid proof, and generally that means proof that can hold up in a court of law. The USADA isn't just saying he was a cheat, shame on him, here's a slap on the wrist (like the guys who gave testimony got) and then going on their merry way. They want to obliterate him. That's going to need to be done through a higher standard of evidence.

And really, after reading that report, if this is what rises to the level of "the most sophisticated doping scheme ever" then I've lost my faith in the dopers around the world as well as the agencies set up to catch them. What's so sophisticated about sitting in a hotel room, where everyone knows you are, and using a coat hanger to hold up a bag of blood to, get this, make the transfusion happen faster (OMG, these guys are so smart they knew how to use "gravity" to enhance their operations. Geniuses!!!). And the whole evading testers thing - seriously, all they had to do was have someone on lookout looking out the hotel window (get this, by partially hiding behind a curtain - again, the CIA needs to hire these guys, who would've thought of that!?!?) and see when the testers are coming? Did the testers drive around in the equivalent of an ice cream van but instead of a plastic cone on top of the van they had a plastic bag of fake urine with the words "athlete tester" on it? If this is "sophistication" these guys need to come over to my house to see my kids try to sneak cookies out of the closet because by these standards my kids are master thiefs at the age of 7.

The other thing in play here is a political power play - the USADA, and the parent WADA group, want to have complete authority over doping in all sports. There is certainly some fuming that the UCI, the cycling governing board, has not ceded control over their sport to either anti-doping group, hence the lengthy diatribe at the end of the report that is basically a written version of the temper tantrum the USADA has thrown in that they haven't been able to dictate terms to the UCI. Granted, the UCI couldn't have done a worse job of managing their sport than they've done, but at the end of the day it's still their sport, warts and all.

[93henfan]

The USADA isn't just saying he was a cheat, shame on him, here's a slap on the wrist (like the guys who gave testimony got) and then going on their merry way. They want to obliterate him. That's going to need to be done through a higher standard of evidence.

They're not trying to obliterate him, just vacate his record while he was cheating, which was basically his entire career after losing his nut. They're not going after his millions, or trying to send him to jail, or anything like that. I think they've found plenty enough damning evidence to vacate his record. Losing the TdF titles was the right move. They said they'd name names and they did, in huge numbers and from his innermost circle. I'm glad the guy was finally nailed.

[YoUDeeMan]

Until they have proof, Lance Armstrong is innocent of the charges levied against him.

This whole thing is similar to our local school tax goons who want to raise taxes and keep calling for votes every 2 months until people get tired of voting or can't take off work to vote against the raise. Who-weee, it passed 1,500 - 1495 after being defeated by many thousands in the previous 15 votes.

Cripes, "witch hunt is correct". This is nothing more than a bunch of bumbling investigators, and armchair fans, getting their panties in a bunch and wasting millions investigating someone they couldn't actually prove was doing anything wrong.

[BlueHen86]

Until they have proof, Lance Armstrong is innocent of the charges levied against him.

This whole thing is similar to our local school tax goons who want to raise taxes and keep calling for votes every 2 months until people get tired of voting or can't take off work to vote against the raise. Who-weee, it passed 1,500 - 1495 after being defeated by many thousands in the previous 15 votes.

Cripes, "witch hunt is correct". This is nothing more than a bunch of bumbling investigators, and armchair fans, getting their panties in a bunch and wasting millions investigating someone they couldn't actually prove was doing anything wrong.

Agreed. He was tested 100's of times and never failed a test. The only way they could get him was the testimony of eyewitnesses years afer the fact, some of whom may have something to gain be testifying against Lance.

I trust the test results more than I trust the witnesses.

[SoCalAg]

Until they have proof, Lance Armstrong is innocent of the charges levied against him.

This whole thing is similar to our local school tax goons who want to raise taxes and keep calling for votes every 2 months until people get tired of voting or can't take off work to vote against the raise. Who-weee, it passed 1,500 - 1495 after being defeated by many thousands in the previous 15 votes.

Cripes, "witch hunt is correct". This is nothing more than a bunch of bumbling investigators, and armchair fans, getting their panties in a bunch and wasting millions investigating someone they couldn't actually prove was doing anything wrong.

Agreed. He was tested 100's of times and never failed a test. The only way they could get him was the testimony of eyewitnesses years afer the fact, some of whom may have something to gain be testifying against Lance.

I trust the test results more than I trust the witnesses.

completely agree, these guys who sold him down the river are doing so to get a 6-month ban so they can be back by next year competing, rather then facing the music for their own mistakes. Pansies

[Grizo406]

Until they have proof, Lance Armstrong is innocent of the charges levied against him.

This whole thing is similar to our local school tax goons who want to raise taxes and keep calling for votes every 2 months until people get tired of voting or can't take off work to vote against the raise. Who-weee, it passed 1,500 - 1495 after being defeated by many thousands in the previous 15 votes.

Cripes, "witch hunt is correct". This is nothing more than a bunch of bumbling investigators, and armchair fans, getting their panties in a bunch and wasting millions investigating someone they couldn't actually prove was doing anything wrong.

Agreed. He was tested 100's of times and never failed a test. The only way they could get him was the testimony of eyewitnesses years afer the fact, some of whom may have something to gain be testifying against Lance.

I trust the test results more than I trust the witnesses.

My thoughts exactly, BH86!!!

[SDHornet]

Actually, I don't understand the group of LA fanboys you all are. You all smell like Sheryl Crowe with all the Armstrong cock you're sucking.

Lol at one nutted.

Huh? Is there anyone on this thread who has said that it's unlikely that Armstrong doped? I think everyone here believes he probably did. All I'm stating is that they don't seem to have the evidence that he did. And apparently the US Department of Justice agrees with me since they dropped out of this investigation when they realized they didn't have the evidence to convict.

It's unlikely that Armstrong doped. There, I said it. Prove my statement wrong with a failed test. I'll wait 93hen.

[93henfan]

Huh? Is there anyone on this thread who has said that it's unlikely that Armstrong doped? I think everyone here believes he probably did. All I'm stating is that they don't seem to have the evidence that he did. And apparently the US Department of Justice agrees with me since they dropped out of this investigation when they realized they didn't have the evidence to convict.

It's unlikely that Armstrong doped. There, I said it. Prove my statement wrong with a failed test. I'll wait 93hen.

SD, I'm hoping you and the rest of the tards are just having some Internet fun with me. I respect that. Comedy is healthy.

Of course there's no failed test. That's why I said he's a master doper. They (USPS team) were pros at evading. Now they've all fessed up, except for one egomaniac who can't bear to tell the truth.

I would think that it would bother a person to go through most of their life living a lie, but apparently it doesn't faze Liestrong at all.

At least the sport got it right by stripping the TdF titles and the record back to 98. I'm satisfied with that action. No need to go after his millions. The guy has done some good for cancer research.

[clenz]

It's unlikely that Armstrong doped. There, I said it. Prove my statement wrong with a failed test. I'll wait 93hen.

SD, I'm hoping you and the rest of the tards are just having some Internet fun with me. I respect that. Comedy is healthy.

Of course there's no failed test. That's why I said he's a master doper. They (USPS team) were pros at evading. Now they've all fessed up, except for one egomaniac who can't bear to tell the truth.

I would think that it would bother a person to go through most of their life living a lie, but apparently it doesn't faze Liestrong at all.

At least the sport got it right by stripping the TdF titles and the record back to 98. I'm satisfied with that action. No need to go after his millions. The guy has done some good for cancer research.

So....if a bunch of your friends decided to "do you in" for some recognition and 12 of them stated they saw you in a hotel room doing sandusky like things to a child it must be true right?

I mean, "eye witnesses" with no proof....that's all we've got here.



Seriously though, how is it that Lance was tested HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF TIMES and never once failed one? Would his teammates not been afforded that same luxury? How it is that pretty much everyone else has been caught? His methods couldn't have been that much different.

[andy7171]

No proof, thousands of unfailed drug tests, a dozen jealous competitors testimony, and we're all the tards.

93 fail.

[93henfan]

No proof, thousands of unfailed drug tests, a dozen jealous competitors testimony, and we're all the tards.

93 fail.

So I ask again: Deep down in your heart, do you truly believe that Lance Armstrong won seven straight Tour de France's without doping? That everyone on his team (but him) doped by their own admission, he didn't, and somehow he magically won the race every year? That close friends and colleagues with nothing to gain would lie about the man?

I doubt you'll be honest on an internet forum, so it's probably pointless to even ask.

If you guys would just get out of your imaginary internet role and just be honest, you all know the guy doped.

This isn't a courtroom. There's no standard of proof applied. It's a sport sanctioning body making its best judgement. If you're honest with yourself, you know the guy cheated like crazy.

But keep on with your banter. I know you guys have a role to play.

[andy7171]

No proof, thousands of unfailed drug tests, a dozen jealous competitors testimony, and we're all the tards.

93 fail.

So I ask again: Deep down in your heart, do you truly believe that Lance Armstrong won seven straight Tour de France's without doping?

I doubt you'll be honest on an internet forum, so it's probably pointless to even ask.

If you guys would just get out of your imaginary internet role and just be honest, you all know the guy doped.

This isn't a courtroom. There's no standard of proof applied. It's a sport sanctioning body making its best judgement. If you're honest with yourself, you know the guy cheated like crazy.

But keep on with your banter. I know you guys have a role to play.

Honestly. I couldn't care less about Lance Armstrong.

[wayne7070]

So I ask again: Deep down in your heart, do you truly believe that Lance Armstrong won seven straight Tour de France's without doping?

I doubt you'll be honest on an internet forum, so it's probably pointless to even ask.

If you guys would just get out of your imaginary internet role and just be honest, you all know the guy doped.

This isn't a courtroom. There's no standard of proof applied. It's a sport sanctioning body making its best judgement. If you're honest with yourself, you know the guy cheated like crazy.

But keep on with your banter. I know you guys have a role to play.

Honestly. I couldn't care less about Lance Armstrong.

What he said.

[93henfan]

So I ask again: Deep down in your heart, do you truly believe that Lance Armstrong won seven straight Tour de France's without doping?

I doubt you'll be honest on an internet forum, so it's probably pointless to even ask.

If you guys would just get out of your imaginary internet role and just be honest, you all know the guy doped.

This isn't a courtroom. There's no standard of proof applied. It's a sport sanctioning body making its best judgement. If you're honest with yourself, you know the guy cheated like crazy.

But keep on with your banter. I know you guys have a role to play.

Honestly. I couldn't care less about Lance Armstrong.

Yet you're here telling me I fail? OK.

Please answer the question honestly.

Do you believe Lance Armstrong was clean in winning seven straight TdFs?

A simple yes or no works.

[andy7171]

Honestly. I couldn't care less about Lance Armstrong.

Yet you're hear telling me I fail? OK.

Please answer the question honestly.

Do you believe Lance Armstrong was clean in winning seven straight TdFs?

A simple yes or no works.

I don't care. But I think it's funny that you do.

My father-in-law is a big LA fan. He was big into bicycling up until a year ago when he had a bad accident. He watched the TdF at the beach every year, annoyingly. So I play the role you are when I visit down there. So thanks for all the ammo.

[93henfan]

Yet you're hear telling me I fail? OK.

Please answer the question honestly.

Do you believe Lance Armstrong was clean in winning seven straight TdFs?

A simple yes or no works.

I don't care. But I think it's funny that you do.

My father-in-law is a big LA fan. He was big into bicycling up until a year ago when he had a bad accident. He watched the TdF at the beach every year, annoyingly. So I play the role you are when I visit down there. So thanks for all the ammo.

So do you think he cheated or not?

I mean, he accepted the report, so apparently he thinks he cheated.

Marion Jones gave back five gold medals and went to jail without ever having failed a drug test. Seems like Liestrong got off fairly easily with just having his career vacated.

[andy7171]

I don't care. But I think it's funny that you do.

My father-in-law is a big LA fan. He was big into bicycling up until a year ago when he had a bad accident. He watched the TdF at the beach every year, annoyingly. So I play the role you are when I visit down there. So thanks for all the ammo.

So do you think he cheated or not?

I mean, he accepted the report, so apparently he thinks he cheated.

Marion Jones gave back five gold medals and went to jail without ever having failed a drug test. Seems like Liestrong got off fairly easily with just having his career vacated.

I never failed a drug test either. I was tested 4 times.

[GannonFan]

The USADA isn't just saying he was a cheat, shame on him, here's a slap on the wrist (like the guys who gave testimony got) and then going on their merry way. They want to obliterate him. That's going to need to be done through a higher standard of evidence.

They're not trying to obliterate him, just vacate his record while he was cheating, which was basically his entire career after losing his nut. They're not going after his millions, or trying to send him to jail, or anything like that. I think they've found plenty enough damning evidence to vacate his record. Losing the TdF titles was the right move. They said they'd name names and they did, in huge numbers and from his innermost circle. I'm glad the guy was finally nailed.

But they did want to go after him - that's why they had the Department of Justice doing the investigation with them. Problem was, the DOJ saw the evidence they had and said "you can't win a court case with that flimsy evidence" and backed off. But the USADA was too far in to back away so that's why you get the report they ended up submitting. All innuendo's, rehashed discredited stories (or at least not provable), and testimonies from guys who are getting soft punishments from the USADA (and several who just flat out hate Armstrong, which I gather is pretty easy to be considering he doesn't come off as a very affable fellow anyway).

And now the USADA is even further pissed because it turns out they have no more power to actually strip his TdF titles than you or me do - I mean, we could say on this forum that we strip those titles, but at the end of the day, neither you, me, or the USADA have the power - the UCI is the governing board and they haven't done anything yet to strip his name from the official records. They may ultimately go that way, and there won't be many people who will jump up and down in response to them doing so - it's all in the past so it doesn't really amount to much when all is said and done.

[ASUG8]

Interesting times.

I could have sworn I watched LA win 7 TDF titles, but the record books say otherwise. I also thought I saw JoPa win a ton of games at Penn St., but apparently 14 yrs of them never existed. I thought Ohio State played football in 2010, but the books don't have them listed.