THE BIG EAST CONFERENCE

[tribe_pride]

Agreed.

I think the big difference is the percentage of teams in the top 25-30 range. In the current configuration, it's 2 out of 10 teams in that range for 20%. Using the old conference, you have6 out 15 teams which is 40%.

This year's conference has only 1 bad team and 2 subpar teams with the other 5 being average to above average for a power conference. Using the old conference, there are 3 extremely bad and 2 others who are subpar while the other 4 would be the middle teams.

Having the old conference way would be sick as there are a lot of top end teams who were in that old conference but there will be a couple each year in the new conference. (note though, if you use RPI as opposed to Pomeroy, Seton Hall, Notre Dame and Butler each become extremely bad for rankings purposes)

[GannonFan]

btw, Temple just lost their 20th game last night, thereby giving 20 teams (minus those they've lost to twice) "good" wins.

[clenz]

btw, Temple just lost their 20th game last night, thereby giving 20 teams (minus those they've lost to twice) "good" wins.

Hey....you mean to tell me 7-20, sub 150 RPI (which is only as high as it is because of playing teams like Louisville, Cinci, Nova, Memphis, Texas, etc... not what they've done), and half your wins against sub .500 teams isn't being a "good team"

[SeawolvesFan90]

I haven't been in this forum for about a year now. But I saw this thread and its of interest.

Just wanted to say. WE NEED THE BIG EAST to play extremely well this year in the NCAAs. I'm actively rooting for all teams and hopefully we can get five or six bids in the NCAA this year even though Georgetown and Marquette are making it extremely hard (Georgetown keeps losing... while Marquette keeps upsetting teams even though they no longer have a realistic chance for a bid)

We have all the odds against us. ESPN hates us. No one is promoting the Big East outside Fox. We need to make a splash NOW before brand fades peoples mind. Best of luck to Creighton and Villanova. They have to carry the Big East on their backs for this year. How awesome would it be having those two teams reach the Final Four.

I love the Big East. It would suck for it to become just another mid major.

[SeawolvesFan90]

The new Big East by the numbers
by Ken Pomeroy on Monday, February 17, 2014

The Villanova/Creighton game yesterday was a demonstration of trade-offs. In their first matchup, Jay Wright elected to play what has become normal Villanova defense during his tenure. In a gross oversimplification, this involves taking away the paint and hoping his opponent missed three-point shots. Creighton made 21-of-35 attempts and scored a whopping 1.45 points per possession in that contest.

In yesterday’s game, the Wildcats tried to take away the three, limiting Creighton to 15 attempts. With all the space inside the arc, Creighton made a high percentage of its twos (25-of-38) and got to the free-throw line 26 times compared to 14 in the first meeting. The end result was a wash. The Bluejays scored 1.47 points per possession in Omaha.

No need to rehash the details any more than that, but the trade-offs angle also applies to the Big East, who dropped eight teams and added three for this season. The conference seems to get treated as a second-class citizen in terms of prestige this season. The perception of the Big East is that there’s some sort of a difference between the “old” version and the current version.

In a previous world, “BCS conference” became synonymous with “power conference”, but now, that’s just sloppy. Despite the lack of football-playing schools, there’s really not much difference at all between the old and new Big East, at least if you evaluate the conference from top to bottom. Here’s a look at the old vs. new using this season’s ratings.
Old configuration Current configuration
Rk AdjO AdjD Rk AdjO AdjD
9 Villanova 119.3 95.5 9 Villanova 119.3 95.5
34 St. John's 110.3 95.6 34 St. John's 110.3 95.6
50 Marquette 109.1 96.7 50 Marquette 109.1 96.7
56 Providence 110.4 98.9 56 Providence 110.4 98.9
61 Georgetown 109.9 99.0 61 Georgetown 109.9 99.0
93 Seton Hall 107.7 100.9 93 Seton Hall 107.7 100.9
162 DePaul 106.0 105.8 162 DePaul 106.0 105.8

5 Syracuse 118.4 93.5 4 Creighton 125.8 99.1
6 Louisville 116.5 92.3 40 Xavier 114.0 99.6
14 Pitt 114.3 93.9 109 Butler 104.5 99.6
20 UConn 113.8 95.8
25 Cincinnati 107.8 91.5
86 Notre Dame 111.7 104.0
181 Rutgers 106.1 107.6
194 S. Florida 101.9 104.5

AVERAGE 110.9 98.4 .7985 111.7 99.1 .7990


While the conference certainly misses the presence of Louisville and Syracuse, among others, Rutgers and South Florida are both significantly worse than they were last season and their exit from the league helps its overall strength. Notre Dame’s departure actually provides a bit of a boost this season, as well.

This isn’t the only way to evaluate conference strength, but it does shed some light on the relative merits of the new and old configurations. One might not care whether Rutgers and USF are merely below average or awful in the grand scheme of things. This is the conundrum of comparing the Big Ten to the Big 12. How much do you care about TCU being one of the worst teams in a power conference?

The other complicating factor in this comparison is the size of the conference. The old version of the Big East would have five more teams and thus five more chances to produce a high-level squad. It would have had 9-11 teams in the NCAA tournament compared to the 4-6 from the current configuration.

The current Big East is extremely unlikely to send two teams to the Elite Eight, and may not even get multiple teams to the Sweet Sixteen. But in terms of overall strength from top to bottom, there’s hardly a difference between the new version and old version. If the Creighton/Villanova game didn’t generate the same interest as Louisville/UConn, that’s a mistake, because based on the collective skill on the floor, it deserved as much attention if not more.

Solution: Raid the Atlantic 10. I completely agree with your statement. But perception matters and we are at a disadvantage because people only count bids (something illogical) and we have less teams now. We need to get a few more basketball programs that are great. Raid the A-10 and get to 12-14 teams. Big East needs to show that it is a power player in the national college basketball scene

Perhaps we can start by raiding St. Louis, George Washington, and Dayton/ St. Josephs? I would also say Wichita St. But they are to f'cking far... screw that. Keep it in the East

What do ya think? Basketball oriented schools with good tradition and nearby rivals all of the East of the Mississippi River... and good enough to boost or at the very least mantain the RPI of the conference

[tribe_pride]

I haven't been in this forum for about a year now. But I saw this thread and its of interest.

Just wanted to say. WE NEED THE BIG EAST to play extremely well this year in the NCAAs. I'm actively rooting for all teams and hopefully we can get five or six bids in the NCAA this year even though Georgetown and Marquette are making it extremely hard (Georgetown keeps losing... while Marquette keeps upsetting teams even though they no longer have a realistic chance for a bid)

We have all the odds against us. ESPN hates us. No one is promoting the Big East outside Fox. We need to make a splash NOW before brand fades peoples mind. Best of luck to Creighton and Villanova. They have to carry the Big East on their backs for this year. How awesome would it be having those two teams reach the Final Four.

I love the Big East. It would suck for it to become just another mid major.

Unfortunately, this year it will be somewhere between 3-5 teams. As you said, Nova and Creighton are the ones that will need to carry the Big East. Lucky for Nova they wouldn't have to face Creighton (who has their number for some reason) until the Final Four because teams from same conference will be placed in opposite quarters.

While not the end all, be all, Xavier is currently the only other team in the top 59 RPI (at 46). Only have 2 bad losses (USC and Seton Hall) but also a very good win versus Cincinnati and 8 RPI top 100 wins.

Providence has lost 5 of its last 8 and is RPI 60 with 3 remaining regular season games to go including Creighton and Marquette (who isn't bad but not great). Only 1 bad loss to Seton Hall. Has a very good win versus Creighton and 6 other top 100 wins. Their issues is they are not playing as well now.

St. Johns is RPI 61 and has lost its last 2 with DePaul and Marquette to go. They have a very good win versus Creighton with 4 other top 100 wins but 2 bad losses versus DePaul and Penn State.

Georgetown is RPI 63 who has lost 3 of last 4 with Creighton and Nova to go. A loss to those 2 would put them 16-14 and out unless they won the Big East tourney or maybe the finals

Marquette is the only other that is even a possibility and is a 71 RPI. They've won 5 of last 6 and have Nova, Providence, and St. Johns to go. Have only 1 bad loss to Butler and 1 very good win against GWU with 4 other good wins. The question is if it is too little to late.

For At-larges, the worst RPI has been:
2013 - 54 - California
2012 - 53 - UVA
2011 - 64 - Marquette (only 4 outside of top 50 in as at-large)
2010 - 62 - Minnesota (only 2 outside of top 50 in as at-large)
2009 - 62 - Arizona (only 3 outside of top 50 in as at-large)

So the Big East has a number that are right on the cusp and cannot afford to lose going forward except late in the Big East tourney.

Remember that the Big East only has 10 teams so getting 6 teams in is extremely tough at 60% overall. The Big East is good in that it has only 3 teams with worse than a 100 RPI and none outside of 150 (only Big Ten and Big East have this last part) which is impressive but this year, outside of Nova and Creighton, the top end depth is not there and the gap is deep.

[Seahawks08]

I love the Big East. It would suck for it to become just another mid major.

You don't have to worry about that. The teams recruit from the hot spots of high school basketball, so there will always be top 100 players within the conference even if they aren't top 20. Currently, the Big East is the 4th best conference based on RPI, and I can see it fluctuating between 3 and 6 in the future. For reference, the 3rd best conference is the PAC-12 and the 6th is the A-10.

Also, I see the Big East adding 2 more teams in the future. Someone like VCU and St. Louis is a possibility. And what I would personally endorse is kicking Depaul out and adding someone like St. Joes or La Salle.

[vutomcat]

I can see why you would want to cut DePaul but I think DePaul is critical for the long term success of the conference. Big market for TV. Also, I don't think Nova would want to share the Philly market with St Joe's or LaSalle. Dayton, St Louis or VCU may be more likely additions.

I think the best we can hope for is 4 teams in the tournament this year but I'm rooting for 6.

[SeawolvesFan90]

Who cares about sharing the market as much in CBB.... Big East is basketball only. You can't be spread around across half of the country when you live off basketball alone. Too much travel time and expenses. Keep in the Northeast with great teams that people would like to watch. More people will tune in.

Kicking DePaul out is a no-no. No getting rid of a member, we need TO ADD members. DePaul may be bad in the Big East but they still win enough games OOC to not hurt the Big East that much.

14 members should be the ultimate goal if the Big East wants to remain the power it once was. and the sooner the better. There is a ton of teams that would love to join the Big East. Imagine that St. Louis vs VCU game that's on ESPN as part of the Big East in FS1 right now. Stronger league with those two teams.

LETS GO!!!!!!!!

Btw, Xavier pretty much locked its bid with the upset over Creighton today. crazy

[Seahawks08]

Kicking DePaul out is a no-no. No getting rid of a member, we need TO ADD members. DePaul may be bad in the Big East but they still win enough games OOC to not hurt the Big East that much.

That's the problem though, they are so bad every year that they drag down the BE conference strength. Personally, I would get rid of them in a heartbeat, but I realize the BE likes tradition, so they will stay no matter what.

And after today's top 25 slaughterfest, assuming Nova wins tomorrow, they should be at least #6 in the country on Monday!

[vutomcat]

What a crazy day yesterday was! Another example of how hard it is to win on the road in College Basketball. . Syracuse, Kansas, Louisville, Creighton, Kentucky, St Louis, Iowa State and Cincinnati all ranked teams lose on the road.

Lunardi has Providence and St. Johns as "last four out" according to ESPN this morning. Marquette next four out.

I'm guessing Virginia will leap frog Nova this week but with Louisville and Kansas losing the Cats should move up at least one spot.

[vutomcat]

ESPN doing a 30/30 presentation on the Big East on Selection Sunday.

Will the documentary report that the Big East has a better RPI than the ACC? Will they report that the Big East is still one of the best conferences in the country? (4 out of 32). Will they report that they were the one’s that split the schools up in the first place? Will they report that the three schools that all made the Final Four in 85’ (VU, SJU, and GTown) are still in the league? That these are the three schools that made the Big East what it was along with Cuse (one of the poached schools).

Will they report that the TV contract that we signed with Fox dwarfs the one we had with ESPN? Does anybody doubt that this is just another shameless ploy to promote their product and sabotage someone else’s?

Don't bury us 'cause we're not dead yet!

[clenz]

Sounds like Creighton and UNI are working on home and home series starting in the next season or two.

The two are long time conference rivals...and Creighton can thank UNI for all of their success the last 4 years...

It was decided the two wouldn't play this year because of the Doug McDermott issue but it sounds like the two WILL play H/H's just a matter of when they start and where at.

[GannonFan]

ESPN doing a 30/30 presentation on the Big East on Selection Sunday.

Will the documentary report that the Big East has a better RPI than the ACC? Will they report that the Big East is still one of the best conferences in the country? (4 out of 32). Will they report that they were the one’s that split the schools up in the first place? Will they report that the three schools that all made the Final Four in 85’ (VU, SJU, and GTown) are still in the league? That these are the three schools that made the Big East what it was along with Cuse (one of the poached schools).

Will they report that the TV contract that we signed with Fox dwarfs the one we had with ESPN? Does anybody doubt that this is just another shameless ploy to promote their product and sabotage someone else’s?

Don't bury us 'cause we're not dead yet!

Expand or die. Small conferences just don't get it done anymore. The Big East has two potentially legit teams this year that can make a run in the NCAA's - nova and to a lesser extent Creighton. Like the kenpom article said, it isn't a top to bottom thing, it's that the size of the whole thing isn't big enough. In the old Big East, which was huge, you'd have 5-6 or more legit teams that could make a run in the NCAA's. And they would all play each other during the year. Like the ACC and Big Ten this year. Number's wise, it's logical that those conferences will get at least one if not more teams in the Final Four. With the Big East only throwing 2 dice as opposed to 5-6, they have less odds of getting a team that far and stand a very real scenario of not having any teams in the Final Four, quite possibly even the Elite Eight. RPI discussions get you nowhere when you don't have any teams in the mix when it matters.

[SeawolvesFan90]

I'll say it again. Its time to seriously consider raiding the Atlantic 10. ASAP!!!!!!

The Big East should be the Largest fish in the basketball-only Pond. Bottom line! Get back to 12-14 teams is a must. I would love it. The A-10 has some great teams... And they are building strength right in our own backyard (Barclays Center Brooklyn)... You can't allow them to do that shyt!

[dbackjon]

The new Big East by the numbers
by Ken Pomeroy on Monday, February 17, 2014

The Villanova/Creighton game yesterday was a demonstration of trade-offs. In their first matchup, Jay Wright elected to play what has become normal Villanova defense during his tenure. In a gross oversimplification, this involves taking away the paint and hoping his opponent missed three-point shots. Creighton made 21-of-35 attempts and scored a whopping 1.45 points per possession in that contest.

In yesterday’s game, the Wildcats tried to take away the three, limiting Creighton to 15 attempts. With all the space inside the arc, Creighton made a high percentage of its twos (25-of-38) and got to the free-throw line 26 times compared to 14 in the first meeting. The end result was a wash. The Bluejays scored 1.47 points per possession in Omaha.

No need to rehash the details any more than that, but the trade-offs angle also applies to the Big East, who dropped eight teams and added three for this season. The conference seems to get treated as a second-class citizen in terms of prestige this season. The perception of the Big East is that there’s some sort of a difference between the “old” version and the current version.

In a previous world, “BCS conference” became synonymous with “power conference”, but now, that’s just sloppy. Despite the lack of football-playing schools, there’s really not much difference at all between the old and new Big East, at least if you evaluate the conference from top to bottom. Here’s a look at the old vs. new using this season’s ratings.
Old configuration Current configuration
Rk AdjO AdjD Rk AdjO AdjD
9 Villanova 119.3 95.5 9 Villanova 119.3 95.5
34 St. John's 110.3 95.6 34 St. John's 110.3 95.6
50 Marquette 109.1 96.7 50 Marquette 109.1 96.7
56 Providence 110.4 98.9 56 Providence 110.4 98.9
61 Georgetown 109.9 99.0 61 Georgetown 109.9 99.0
93 Seton Hall 107.7 100.9 93 Seton Hall 107.7 100.9
162 DePaul 106.0 105.8 162 DePaul 106.0 105.8

5 Syracuse 118.4 93.5 4 Creighton 125.8 99.1
6 Louisville 116.5 92.3 40 Xavier 114.0 99.6
14 Pitt 114.3 93.9 109 Butler 104.5 99.6
20 UConn 113.8 95.8
25 Cincinnati 107.8 91.5
86 Notre Dame 111.7 104.0
181 Rutgers 106.1 107.6
194 S. Florida 101.9 104.5

AVERAGE 110.9 98.4 .7985 111.7 99.1 .7990


While the conference certainly misses the presence of Louisville and Syracuse, among others, Rutgers and South Florida are both significantly worse than they were last season and their exit from the league helps its overall strength. Notre Dame’s departure actually provides a bit of a boost this season, as well.

This isn’t the only way to evaluate conference strength, but it does shed some light on the relative merits of the new and old configurations. One might not care whether Rutgers and USF are merely below average or awful in the grand scheme of things. This is the conundrum of comparing the Big Ten to the Big 12. How much do you care about TCU being one of the worst teams in a power conference?

The other complicating factor in this comparison is the size of the conference. The old version of the Big East would have five more teams and thus five more chances to produce a high-level squad. It would have had 9-11 teams in the NCAA tournament compared to the 4-6 from the current configuration.

The current Big East is extremely unlikely to send two teams to the Elite Eight, and may not even get multiple teams to the Sweet Sixteen. But in terms of overall strength from top to bottom, there’s hardly a difference between the new version and old version. If the Creighton/Villanova game didn’t generate the same interest as Louisville/UConn, that’s a mistake, because based on the collective skill on the floor, it deserved as much attention if not more.

Solution: Raid the Atlantic 10. I completely agree with your statement. But perception matters and we are at a disadvantage because people only count bids (something illogical) and we have less teams now. We need to get a few more basketball programs that are great. Raid the A-10 and get to 12-14 teams. Big East needs to show that it is a power player in the national college basketball scene

Perhaps we can start by raiding St. Louis, George Washington, and Dayton/ St. Josephs? I would also say Wichita St. But they are to f'cking far... screw that. Keep it in the East

What do ya think? Basketball oriented schools with good tradition and nearby rivals all of the East of the Mississippi River... and good enough to boost or at the very least mantain the RPI of the conference

You do realize that Wichita isn't too much west of Creighton...

[clenz]

Solution: Raid the Atlantic 10. I completely agree with your statement. But perception matters and we are at a disadvantage because people only count bids (something illogical) and we have less teams now. We need to get a few more basketball programs that are great. Raid the A-10 and get to 12-14 teams. Big East needs to show that it is a power player in the national college basketball scene

Perhaps we can start by raiding St. Louis, George Washington, and Dayton/ St. Josephs? I would also say Wichita St. But they are to f'cking far... screw that. Keep it in the East

What do ya think? Basketball oriented schools with good tradition and nearby rivals all of the East of the Mississippi River... and good enough to boost or at the very least mantain the RPI of the conference

You do realize that Wichita isn't too much west of Creighton...

anther couple hours south though....

[vutomcat]

I'll say it again. Its time to seriously consider raiding the Atlantic 10. ASAP!!!!!!

The Big East should be the Largest fish in the basketball-only Pond. Bottom line! Get back to 12-14 teams is a must. I would love it. The A-10 has some great teams... And they are building strength right in our own backyard (Barclays Center Brooklyn)... You can't allow them to do that shyt!

I agree we need to get bigger but we need to add quality. Xavier was great. Need to be careful of adding too many mid majors. The litmus test should be " who will improve the conference"? Im not sure of the answer.

Don't want to add teams with no NCAA tournament winning pedigrees.

[Seahawks08]

Creighton's depth about to be tested...they may have lost their freshman Isaiah Zierden for the season due to torn ligaments. And he was just starting to contribute more too. Such a shame.

[Seahawks08]

And Xavier lost to Seton Hall today. WTF?

[SeawolvesFan90]

What a day for Big East Basketball. Just finished watching Providence. Glad they won after 2OT. They needed that win to secure the bid. I know Marquette is a marquee program of the B.E but they don't have a chance so in terms of bids this helps Providence a lot

Georgetown also with a heck of game against Creighton. Things are looking better for the Big East now. Can't wait for the Big East Tournament!!!

[Seahawks08]

I guess that freshman was the key for Creighton. Now two losses without him in the last 2 games. Is this the proverbial slide clenz has been waiting for?

[clenz]

They won't make the second weekend.

I'll eat crow if I'm wrong....but.....

[vutomcat]

They won't make the second weekend.

I'll eat crow if I'm wrong....but.....

Watching Georgetown last night I was thinking of your prediction of Creighton's late season swoon. Looking like a soothsayer right now! More games to play though.

Would love to see Providence (can they beat Creight too?) and St. John's (Penn St. and DePaul losses really hurt them-they need to beat Marquette to end the season) play their way in and get 5 teams.
Georgetown's surge might be too late. Northeastern loss and two losses to Seton Hall may be too many unless they can upset Villanova this Saturday.

What a great season for a conference that ESPN is having a "requiem" for. LOL. What a joke they turned out to be.

[SeawolvesFan90]

VUtom,

I know you are a fan of Nova. But I'm praying for an upset this Saturday. Just so the Big east can get five bids for sure. We need Georgetown in man, you know it!

Georgetown has five top 50 (VCU, MSU, Oregon, X, and Creighton as of now) wins so all they need is two more wins to be in. Beat Villanova and get one win in the BET and they are in for sure.

Things are getting interesting!