Joe Delaney video (a great back out of I-AA)

[clenz]

I'll just leave this here

http://www.azcardinals.com/videos/video ... 932a7bd30d

[Gil Dobie]

I'll just leave this here

http://www.azcardinals.com/videos/video ... 932a7bd30d

Did I hear he broke one of Barry Sanders records? If Delaney had lived, it would have been Delaney's record not Sanders record he broke.

[JohnStOnge]

Guys, what I said about Delaney is "I think he may have been the best back to ever come out of I-AA/FCS." And I do. He was an all pro as a rookie. If you look at his career stats running the ball he had a slightly higher averaged per carry (4.6 vs. 4.4) and per game (65.3 vs. 56.9) than Johnson does right now. He also has a longer long run (82 vs. 58). He was clearly the greater home run threat as he was on a NCAA championship 4 x 100 relay team when he was at Northwestern State. Johnson does have a lot more touchdowns that Delaney did (32 vs. only 3); which is interesting.

I suspect that if you asked long time NFL talent people who was better they'd say Delaney. But I doubt that we'll get that information.

[JohnStOnge]

Doesn't matter, Delaney looked like he was going to be the better NFL player.

He was an all pro as a rookie. Johnson is an all pro as a second year player. Both are great accomplishments. I think it's arguable that he looked like a better NFL player while he was alive.

[Gil Dobie]

Guys, what I said about Delaney is "I think he may have been the best back to ever come out of I-AA/FCS." And I do. He was an all pro as a rookie. If you look at his career stats running the ball he had a slightly higher averaged per carry (4.6 vs. 4.4) and per game (65.3 vs. 56.9) than Johnson does right now. He also has a longer long run (82 vs. 58). He was clearly the greater home run threat as he was on a NCAA championship 4 x 100 relay team when he was at Northwestern State. Johnson does have a lot more touchdowns that Delaney did (32 vs. only 3); which is interesting.

I suspect that if you asked long time NFL talent people who was better they'd say Delaney. But I doubt that we'll get that information.

Billy Jackson had 11 TD's for KC in 1981. He was a bigger power back than Delaney. Delaney's yards per carry would surely have been lower, had he been in the lineup during power situations. On the other hand Johnson was in the game for the power situations that Delaney was too small for. And you failed to mention that part of the Running Backs roll is to catch passes out of the backfield. Delaney caught 33 for his career, while Johnson has 116 after 2 seasons, and 80 this year.

[clenz]

Guys, what I said about Delaney is "I think he may have been the best back to ever come out of I-AA/FCS." And I do. He was an all pro as a rookie. If you look at his career stats running the ball he had a slightly higher averaged per carry (4.6 vs. 4.4) and per game (65.3 vs. 56.9) than Johnson does right now. He also has a longer long run (82 vs. 58). He was clearly the greater home run threat as he was on a NCAA championship 4 x 100 relay team when he was at Northwestern State. Johnson does have a lot more touchdowns that Delaney did (32 vs. only 3); which is interesting.

I suspect that if you asked long time NFL talent people who was better they'd say Delaney. But I doubt that we'll get that information.

Billy Jackson had 11 TD's for KC in 1981. He was a bigger power back than Delaney. Delaney's yards per carry would surely have been lower, had he been in the lineup during power situations. On the other hand Johnson was in the game for the power situations that Delaney was too small for. And you failed to mention that part of the Running Backs roll is to catch passes out of the backfield. Delaney caught 33 for his career, while Johnson has 116 after 2 seasons, and 80 this year.

He's also ignoring that DJ was the third running back for Arizona until week 13 his rookie season behind Chris Johnson and Andre Ellington.

Yards per game? What was his total yards per game? The only time DJ didn't have at least 100 yards in a game this year was week 17 when he left the game in the first quarter with a knee injury - that's an NFL record. Since becoming the starter DJ is averaging 89 yards per game rushing

It's "intersting" that DJ has 30 more touchdowns after 2 years than Delaney? Sure is. What's that tell you? DJ knows how to score.

Bigger home run threat? DJ has a 108 kick off return for a TD. Take a look at DJ's highlights. You'll see 20-30 yard runs far more impressive than Delaney's 82 yard run. Hell, more than a handful of his plays would have been 80+ yard TD runs if they weren't a TD after 20-30 yard.


No, seriously, take the time to watch these videos Wathc how often he's getting first contact i nthe back field and still raining 10-15 yards. Pay special attention to how well he catches the ball and cuts...tell me that's not a "home run" threat"

Rookie year

phpBB [video]

2nd year

phpBB [video]

College

phpBB [video]

If you aren't willing to watch those then there is no point in continuing with you. He had a 90 yard TD run vs NDSU in college...in Fargo. He averaged 40 yards per kick return in college.


You also need to remember, he is 6'2 230lbs with about 4% body fat and has run sub 4.5 40 times. Not sure what that looks like?





Delany was 4-5 inches shorter than David and weight 50 less pounds at 5'10 180.


Here's a link to all of DJ's TDs.

Notice how many at less than 7 yards out - 22 of them. Short yardage power situations. Oh, but he also has 4 career TD's long than 47 yards. Home run threat. Can do it all. Doesn't need to come off the field.
For refernce, the smallest back in the 2016 draft was 5'10 192 pounds. Only 1 other back was less than 200.

Here is a picture of that back at the combine....compare him to DJ.

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For speed comp, his 40 time was a whopping .09 seconds faster than DJ's was.

Oh...and DJ is playing behind one of the 4 worst offensive lines in the NFL.

[Gil Dobie]

Johnson also had big games against FBS competition, I see Delaney played Cincinnati one year.
Iowa - 203 yards receiving
Iowa St 199 yards rushing
Wisconsin 107 yards receiving
Iowa - 77 rushing, 77 receiving
Iowa St - 80 yard TD reception as a Freshman

[JohnStOnge]

Guys the arguments for David Johnson are good ones as they are based on NFL performance and his has been a very good NFL performance. There's no objective standard for saying which of the two is/was the better back to come out of I-AA/FCS. We can objectively say that Delaney averaged a little more per carry during his short NFL career than Johnson has to this point (4.6 vs. 4.4). We can objectively say that Delaney averaged a little more per game played (65.3 vs. 56.9). We can objectively say Delaney had the longer longest run (82 vs. 58). We can objectively say Johnson has a lot more touchdowns than Delaney did (32 vs. 3). We can objectively say Johnson is bigger than Delaney was (about 220 vs. about 180). And I'm pretty sure that we can say Delaney was faster than Johnson is since he had a documented track time of 10.26 in the 100 meters in college, a documented 10.37 100 meters time in high school, and was on the 1981 NCAA championship 4 x 400 meter relay team.

I said Joe Delaney may have been the best back to ever come out of I-AA/FCS and I think that's a reasonable statement. If one wants to believe that Johnson is the best back to ever come of I-AA/FCS there's a reasonable argument for that. We'll never know how good Delaney could have been over an extended career for obvious reasons. We'll have a chance to see how good Johnson can be over an extended career if nothing happens to cut his career short.

One thing we can all agree on is that Delaney was a great athlete and football player who was also a heroic human being. A quote from a New York Times article written on July 5, 1983, shortly after his death:

Joe Delaney ran to help. ''There was a little boy who was next to the pit and he was interviewed on television after it happened,'' said Lucille Delaney. ''And he said someone asked Joe, 'Can you swim?' And Joe said, 'I can't swim good, but I've got to save those kids.' And then he said, 'If I don't come up - go get somebody.'''

[JohnStOnge]

You know another thing that's interesting to me is that the 1980 Northwestern State I-AA team had Joe Delaney, Mark Duper, and Bobby Hebert on it. Duper was on the 1981 NCAA championship 4 x 400 meter relay team with Delaney and had a 10.21 100 meters.

Delaney made the pro bowl during his only complete season as a rookie. Duper made the pro bowl three times. Hebert made the pro bowl once. And he started in the NFL at quarterback for 11 straight years after starting his pro career by quarterbacking the USFL Michigan Panthers during their USFL championship season.

I guess you guys will come up with something but I don't know if there's ever been any other I-AA/FCS teams with three offensive skill players of that level...three future pro bowlers including a wide receiver and running back who both run the 100 meters in the lower 10s along with a quarterback who is going to start in the NFL for 11 years...on them. Northwestern State finished 8-3 that year.

[kalm]

You know another thing that's interesting to me is that the 1980 Northwestern State I-AA team had Joe Delaney, Mark Duper, and Bobby Hebert on it. Duper was on the 1981 NCAA championship 4 x 400 meter relay team with Delaney and had a 10.21 100 meters.

Delaney made the pro bowl during his only complete season as a rookie. Duper made the pro bowl three times. Hebert made the pro bowl once. And he started in the NFL at quarterback for 11 straight years after starting his pro career by quarterbacking the USFL Michigan Panthers during their USFL championship season.

I guess you guys will come up with something but I don't know if there's ever been any other I-AA/FCS teams with three offensive skill players of that level...three future pro bowlers including a wide receiver and running back who both run the 100 meters in the lower 10s along with a quarterback who is going to start in the NFL for 11 years...on them. Northwestern State finished 8-3 that year.

A couple of blasts from the past right there. That is, indeed, interesting.

[clenz]

Again, the yards per game stat is completely misleading.

Since taking over as the starter DJ is averaging 82 or 83 yards per game. It's not close.

[Gil Dobie]

Again, the yards per game stat is completely misleading.

Since taking over as the starter DJ is averaging 82 or 83 yards per game. It's not close.

Not to mention skipping completely the all-around play of Johnson compared Delaney being 1 dimensional.

[Baldy]

Congrats to Adrian Peterson being inducted into the College Football Hall of Fame today.

[clenz]

Since JSO likes charts and math

https://www.numberfire.com/nfl/news/123 ... dlvr.it_fi

Fantasy MVP

Johnson’s 323.40 standard fantasy points this season marked the highest total at the position since Arian Foster put up 326.00 standard points in 2010.

The Cardinals’ second-year phenom averaged 20.5 standard fantasy points per game and 25.5 PPR fantasy points per contest. He was the only running back in the entire NFL to reach the 300-point mark in standard scoring, besting Ezekiel Elliott by 34.40 points, and was the lone back to reach the 400-point mark in PPR, beating Zeke by 82.40 points in that format.

His two-plus scrimmage touchdowns in eight different games marked the most by a player since Randy Moss in 2007 (including three different three-score games).

Johnson also set Cardinals franchise records with 2,118 scrimmage yards (the most by a running back since DeMarco Murray's 2,261 yards in 2014) and 20 total touchdowns (the most by a running back since LeSean McCoy's 20 in 2011).

Excluding Week 17, Johnson averaged 24 touches and 138 scrimmage yards per game for the season.

All-Purpose Workhorse

As a runner, Elliott was better statistically than Johnson this season by our Net Expected Points (NEP) metric, which indicates how many points a player adds to his team's expected scoring output.

Zeke's 35.79 Rushing NEP blew Johnson’s mark of -0.53 away, but because the latter was such a beast as a receiver, it simply didn’t matter.

In today’s NFL, versatility at the running back position goes a long way, and Johnson’s production proved that it’s worth investing in backs who can do everything.

In addition to his 293 rush attempts, the Northern Iowa product received more targets (120) and hauled in more receptions (80) than any other back in the league. Since 2000, only six other running backs who have logged at least 250 carries in a season also had 80 or more receptions; Johnson is in good company.

Those players are: Marshall Faulk (twice), Ladainian Tomlinson, Le'Veon Bell, Steven Jackson, Matt Forte, and Brian Westbrook. Johnson also joined Bell, Faulk, and Jackson as the fourth different player with at least 1,200 rushing yards and 800 receiving yards in the same season.

Johnson saw 19 percent of the Cardinals’ passing targets, ranking second on the team in total targets, receptions, receiving yards, and tied for second with four receiving touchdowns. In fact, he led Arizona in one or more receiving stat(s) on five different occasions during the season:

In Week 2, he led the team in receiving yards (98) and in Week 8 (84). In Week 11, he led the Cardinals in targets (11) and receptions (8).

His 11 targets, 8 catches, and 108 yards in Week 12 were all top marks on his team, and in Week 13, he again led in targets (12) and receiving yards (91).

High-Volume Metrics Monster

Among 19 high-volume backs in 2016 -- that is, running backs who logged 205-plus carries on the season -- Johnson’s 129 rush successes (carries that increased NEP) ranked him second among the group only to Elliott (151).

Johnson ranked first or second in nine vital metrics among this group of backs for the season.

*chart on website I can't copy over*

His Reception NEP of 69.65 was the highest among running backs in 2016. The mark also ranks Johnson third-highest among running backs dating back to 2000 (as far back as numberFire metrics go) among over 2,500 backs to log at least one reception in that span, and the second-highest among 226 running backs who have logged 250-plus carries since 2000.

Of those 226 backs, 19 of them have recorded 70-plus receptions in a season.

Johnson’s aforementioned Reception NEP ranks him second among that group of backs with 250 or more rushes and at least 70 catches as well.

*chart on website I can't copy over*

Johnson’s 879 receiving yards were the most by a running back since Charlie Garner recorded 941 yards on his 91 receptions in 2002 with the Oakland Raiders. Garner actually owns the highest Reception NEP (74.83) among all running backs in a single season dating back to 2000. Only Marshall Faulk’s 2000 campaign (70.27 Reception NEP) stands between Johnson’s 2016 mark and Garner’s record.

Johnson’s 69.12 Total NEP for the season ranked him first among backs with 200-plus carries in 2016 and 10th since 2000 among said sample of backs. His Total NEP ranked him 6th since 2000 among running backs with 250-plus carries and 70-plus receptions in a single season and 13th overall among all running backs to record a reception this century. (Wipes sweat off brow, chugs a Gatorade.)

Despite Arizona’s failure to make the playoffs, the second-year back is still considered worthy of MVP candidacy by some pundits because of his all-purpose dominance. There’s no question that David Johnson should be the top overall pick in fantasy football in 2017 drafts.

[JohnStOnge]

Again, the yards per game stat is completely misleading.

Since taking over as the starter DJ is averaging 82 or 83 yards per game. It's not close.

Johnson has averaged fewer attempts per game during his career than Delaney did. 13.1 vs. 14.3. However, Delaney also averaged more yards per attempt. I know y'all have already made arguments about that. But I don't think it's misleading to say Delaney averaged both more yards per game and more yards per attempt. If all one said is Delaney averaged more yards per game and we looked at the yards per attempt stat and Johnson had more yards per attempt it might be. But that's not the case.

[Gil Dobie]

Again, the yards per game stat is completely misleading.

Since taking over as the starter DJ is averaging 82 or 83 yards per game. It's not close.

Johnson has averaged fewer attempts per game during his career than Delaney did. 13.1 vs. 14.3. However, Delaney also averaged more yards per attempt. I know y'all have already made arguments about that. But I don't think it's misleading to say Delaney averaged both more yards per game and more yards per attempt. If all one said is Delaney averaged more yards per game and we looked at the yards per attempt stat and Johnson had more yards per attempt it might be. But that's not the case.

Delaney was a 1 dimensional back, Kansas City brought in a different back in power situations. Delaney also wasn't much of a pass catcher, 13 yards per game. Johnson is getting over 98.7 yards per game running/passing, while Delaney had 78.3 yards per game. Who is better, a player that can play all downs, or a player that is single dimensional and doesn't play in power situations and doesn't catch many passes?

[JohnStOnge]

Johnson has averaged fewer attempts per game during his career than Delaney did. 13.1 vs. 14.3. However, Delaney also averaged more yards per attempt. I know y'all have already made arguments about that. But I don't think it's misleading to say Delaney averaged both more yards per game and more yards per attempt. If all one said is Delaney averaged more yards per game and we looked at the yards per attempt stat and Johnson had more yards per attempt it might be. But that's not the case.

Delaney was a 1 dimensional back, Kansas City brought in a different back in power situations. Delaney also wasn't much of a pass catcher, 13 yards per game. Johnson is getting over 98.7 yards per game running/passing, while Delaney had 78.3 yards per game. Who is better, a player that can play all downs, or a player that is single dimensional and doesn't play in power situations and doesn't catch many passes?

I suspect that if you asked NFL people that they would say Delaney was the better player. I suspect they'd say he was a Hall of Fame type player that had his career cut short by tragedy. But there is no way to know.

[Gil Dobie]

Delaney was a 1 dimensional back, Kansas City brought in a different back in power situations. Delaney also wasn't much of a pass catcher, 13 yards per game. Johnson is getting over 98.7 yards per game running/passing, while Delaney had 78.3 yards per game. Who is better, a player that can play all downs, or a player that is single dimensional and doesn't play in power situations and doesn't catch many passes?

I suspect that if you asked NFL people that they would say Delaney was the better player. I suspect they'd say he was a Hall of Fame type player that had his career cut short by tragedy. But there is no way to know.

I suspect you are wrong that they would say he was a better player. I've seen both play in the NFL and Delaney was possibly a Hall of Famer, same with Johnson. But you are the one saying 78.3 yards per game is better than 98.7 yards per game. Johnson just had the 40th best season all-time for yards from scrimmage with 2118 yards, 3 yards behind #39 Walter Payton and 5 yards ahead of Thurman Thomas. Delaney's 1367 yards is not in the top 250 of all-time. Ask a pro coach and see what type of back they would want on a team or who is better.