NCAA Remains Firm on UND/Nickname

[FargoBison]

Pro-NDSU legislators?

The legislator that pushed this does have an NDSU degree but he is no friend to NDSU or higher ed in the state. Just a republican trying to make a name for himself so he can position himself to run for governor or senator and further what all republicans in the ND house want, more control of higher ed.

The same legislator proposed a bill that called for abolishing the State Board of High Ed and replacing it with something legislators could have more power in controlling. Right now the State Board of Higher Ed is fairly well protected by the ND constitution.

Scary thing is none of them really have a clue as to how Higher Ed can benefit the state, the tea party morons have only made it worse. The legislator in the ND house that is the chair of Education Approps doesn't even have a degree, it is just sad how clueless he is.

[JBB]

What a freaking Catch 22. Either the school violates state law and loses funding from THAT source or they obey the law but get screwed by the NCAA. Yet NEITHER entity has any business telling the school what to do. This is a name that was probably voted on by the entire student body at some time or another. Since when does the NCAA have the power to tell the general student body where to go? All that's going to happen is that at some point, the state law will be revoked as untenable, the school changes the name to "comply" with the NCAA's bogus requirement, but the student body will STILL refer to the teams as the Sioux because the NCAA can't legislate Joe Student.

1. UND is under no obligation to stay in the NCAA. It's a voluntary membership organization - they are well within their rights to set conditions on membership.

2. The state lawmakers passed the law specifically to create a catch-22. As much as I don't like it, the state has every right to pass a law instructing a public university on how to conduct itself... is it an overreach in to painfully minor area? you bet. (see my previous thread for the why and wherefore)

3. The entire student body will move on, just like every student body everywhere moves on in a few years. You don't hear Eastern Michigan fans shouting "GO HURONS!" anymore... those things work themselves out over a period of a few years. Especially if the new nickname is a good one (like Roughriders)

You are generally correct, but #2 causes me to take issue. The state does not have the right to pass a law that oversteps its bounds with regard to the immunity of the State Board of Higher Education and its absolute control, free of legislative interference, over the affairs of the state's institutions of higher learning.

UND has been in a downward spiral ever since they cowardly quit competing. Its the best thing that ever happened to NDSU, I know it and they know it, and now they are out west someplace without an audience in their home state. They are not part of the Dakota Big 3 and they dont compete for anything remotely Dakota.

My calculations show they are 10-15 in the last 25 games with NDSU. Thats a good way to leave it. Im dont think NDSU has much appetite to schedule an NAIA football team!

[eaglesfootball]

jb, I've noticed you are pretty critical of North Dakota for not playing NDSU after you had transitioned and had twice as many football scholarships. that's pretty funny, don't you think?

[JBB]

First of all, und QUIT playing NDSU in all sports. They now cheerfully engage NAIA and other lower division teams in football with the same scholarship advantage they claimed NDSU had. They have 3 on their schedule this year. They are 0-1 with one of them!

[Mike Johnson]

1. UND is under no obligation to stay in the NCAA. It's a voluntary membership organization - they are well within their rights to set conditions on membership.

2. The state lawmakers passed the law specifically to create a catch-22. As much as I don't like it, the state has every right to pass a law instructing a public university on how to conduct itself... is it an overreach in to painfully minor area? you bet. (see my previous thread for the why and wherefore)

3. The entire student body will move on, just like every student body everywhere moves on in a few years. You don't hear Eastern Michigan fans shouting "GO HURONS!" anymore... those things work themselves out over a period of a few years. Especially if the new nickname is a good one (like Roughriders)

I agree with most of what you wrote here, particularly points 2 and 3. And Roughriders would be a good nickname for UND.

On 1, while UND can leave the NCAA, that isn't really a solution. The NAIA is the best option and that really isn't an option. I wonder if the CIS would let in an American school. UND and Manitoba could develop a good rivalry.

Also on 1, while the NCAA does have every right to impose conditions on membership, this rule is not a condition on membership. It is a rule on eligibility for playing in or hosting NCAA sponsored tournaments and bowls. But, conferences and individual schools can also decide not to play UND if not not eligible for NCAA sponsored tournament. So, the impact potentially might be the same, but the NCAA explicitly said it was limited to playing in or hosting NCAA sponsored tournaments and bowls.

And for the record, I do believe UND had three options--like all schools including my alma mater--and that is either get (buy?) permission from instate or nearby recognized Native American groups with the name or change the mascot, nickname, and symbols, or suffer the consequences. I don't think it is fair, but it is the rule and there doesn't appear to be much support for changing it. In my opinion, both the NCAA and the state had the right to do what they did, but both were unwise in my opinion.

[citdog]

I SALUTE UND for standing up to the racist, economic terrorists! The GREAT and SOVEREIGN State of South Carolina stands with you, as we are also under an ncaa sanction and are prepared to fight with you! If it's ok with you we already got uniforms and everything!

Umm...you do realize that is a Sherman tank the rebs are sitting on don't you? You know, like the Sherman that marched to the sea back in 1864.

that's the whole point of the photo. this economic terrorism is not a new tactic. the whole State of South Carolina is under a NCAA ban on postseason events that are prescheduled due to our refusal to allow outsiders to tell us where we should place the Confederate Battle Flag. neither the fcs playoffs or baseball super regionals are affected as those are earned on the field. The Citadel, Vermin, Wofford, CCU, klempsin, nor usc have had any problems scheduling opponents due to ncaa or naacp sanctions.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

1. UND is under no obligation to stay in the NCAA. It's a voluntary membership organization - they are well within their rights to set conditions on membership.

2. The state lawmakers passed the law specifically to create a catch-22. As much as I don't like it, the state has every right to pass a law instructing a public university on how to conduct itself... is it an overreach in to painfully minor area? you bet. (see my previous thread for the why and wherefore)

3. The entire student body will move on, just like every student body everywhere moves on in a few years. You don't hear Eastern Michigan fans shouting "GO HURONS!" anymore... those things work themselves out over a period of a few years. Especially if the new nickname is a good one (like Roughriders)

I agree with most of what you wrote here, particularly points 2 and 3. And Roughriders would be a good nickname for UND.

On 1, while UND can leave the NCAA, that isn't really a solution. The NAIA is the best option and that really isn't an option. I wonder if the CIS would let in an American school. UND and Manitoba could develop a good rivalry.

Also on 1, while the NCAA does have every right to impose conditions on membership, this rule is not a condition on membership. It is a rule on eligibility for playing in or hosting NCAA sponsored tournaments and bowls. But, conferences and individual schools can also decide not to play UND if not not eligible for NCAA sponsored tournament. So, the impact potentially might be the same, but the NCAA explicitly said it was limited to playing in or hosting NCAA sponsored tournaments and bowls.

And for the record, I do believe UND had three options--like all schools including my alma mater--and that is either get (buy?) permission from instate or nearby recognized Native American groups with the name or change the mascot, nickname, and symbols, or suffer the consequences. I don't think it is fair, but it is the rule and there doesn't appear to be much support for changing it. In my opinion, both the NCAA and the state had the right to do what they did, but both were unwise in my opinion.

they've been trying for twenty years to buy off the tribes... not going to happen...

for the NCAA the post-season ban was a half measure - they wanted to ban them outright... and likely they will at some point - but for now, the half-measure is their solution.

[polsongrizz]

Turtle mountain tribes passed 5-0 a resolution OPPOSING the nickname today.

Plains Indians ( 7 tribes coalition ) OPPOSES it 7- 0

Standing Rock has never voted YES on it, OPPOSED.

NCAA signed an agreement with und and nodaks attorney general.

What the heck more do these arrogant, racist and twisting nincompoops need to get it????

I don't know about you but I am a Turtle Mountain Chippewa. I have absolutely no problem with the school using that name. It is in no way derogatory or demeaning. I do however have a problem with names like the Redskins.

[lakesbison]

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/a ... id/200887/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

well, your people voted on it and said NO


plus your chairman, Richard Marseilies is a senator and voted NO on this lawa in committee and on the floor. how completely arrogant and racist are the legislator's to HAVE a PEER SENATOR actually be a native american and they still shove him aside. what a disgrace, all the pro nickname fans of und are, every single one of them... but what do you expect from a fanbase that has a NAZI SYMPATHIZER GIVE THEM $100 MILLION and OBEY HIS WISHES.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

the Turtle Mountain Tribe in question here are Lakota... not Ojibwe...

the Ojibwe don't get any input on a name that isn't referring to them (though they did approve of Central Michigan continuing to use "Chippewas")

[lakesbison]

BUT they are a tribe in North Dakota, along with the standing rock tribe that BOTH OPPOSE IT. are they not north dakota citizans?

[dbackjon]

I know several Lakota here in Ariozna - none of them care if UND uses "Sioux"

[citdog]

I know several Lakota here in Ariozna - none of them care if UND uses "Siuox"

"nuzzling with schmeckles" speaks the truth

[dbackjon]

I know several Lakota here in Ariozna - none of them care if UND uses "Siuox"

"nuzzling with schmeckles" speaks the truth

[TwinTownBisonFan]

i'm mistaken - there are no Turtle Mountain Lakota... it's an Ojibwe tribe... what confuses me is that an Ojibwe tribe would get any input at all on a Lakota issue...

[JBB]

Turtle mountain tribes passed 5-0 a resolution OPPOSING the nickname today.

Plains Indians ( 7 tribes coalition ) OPPOSES it 7- 0

Standing Rock has never voted YES on it, OPPOSED.

NCAA signed an agreement with und and nodaks attorney general.

What the heck more do these arrogant, racist and twisting nincompoops need to get it????

I don't know about you but I am a Turtle Mountain Chippewa. I have absolutely no problem with the school using that name. It is in no way derogatory or demeaning. I do however have a problem with names like the Redskins.

Big deal! Your tribe doesn't agree.

[JBB]

I know several Lakota here in Ariozna - none of them care if UND uses "Sioux"

to be ambivalent is to take a stand: for nothing.

[JBB]

An interesting point has been brought up concerning unintended consequences associated with the playoff sanctions UND is now under.

The NCAA likes to schedule regional games. If NDSU and UND make it NDSU can lowball bid knowing UND cant host. That will free up money to help NDSU bid higher in a subsequent round against say Montana, a school with a bigger stadium than ours. Its going to be a huge advantage for NDSU in future bidding situations.

The point is academic, of course, because the UND football team is not headed to any playoff games for quite some time for any number of reasons. but if they ever do happen to make it its going to affect the entire playoff hosting situation.

[JBB]

The idea that UND accept its sanctions from the NCAA and simply go ahead with no playoff opportunities and generic playoff uniforms is the subject of a column in this mornings Fargo Forum.

here is a solution that doesn’t get talked about much – a decision bound to leave both the NCAA and North Dakota feeling unfulfilled yet dignified. The best compromises do that.

It’s so simple. Here’s how it works:

UND (and North Dakota) keeps the nickname and logo and accepts the NCAA’s penalties for doing so. http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/317173/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I dont know what affect this will have on hockey but it will certainly be a hurt on other sports that are now well positioned, in the relatively weak BSC, to garner a playoff spot in one of the major sports.

Fargo would be the most likely venue for them to appear, but SDSU and USD are also places they might find themselves in a playoff game and this would happen even if they had a seed and homefield rights. Of course the REA would no longer be a legitimate venue for the hockey playoffs.

They have 3 options:

1) change the name as they have agreed
2) try and sue the NCAA, a futile endeavor which leads to #3
3) leave the NCAA by choice or by the actions of the NCAA itself, which Im sure is growing tired of UND.

In any case the BSC is blind sided by this and finds itself in the middle of the fight, something Im sure they hadnt bargained for since the issue looked settled when the BSC made their move and the Summit/MVFC wisely stayed away.

Scheduling also becomes very problomatic especially with Big 10 hockey. Minnesota and Wisconsin will no longer schedule them in Hockey because they will not schedule them unless there is a conference obligation in any sports because of their poor standing in the NCAA. I think you can add iowa to that list and if there is pressure from the NCAA other schools may follow suit.

At any rate it looks as if they will continue to stonewall their obligations under the NCAA agreement and the state law will prevail in their actions concerning continued use of the now disgraced moniker. Most UND fans feel the state will sue the NCAA, an action that falls neatly into their self destructive behavior concerning this issue.

[JBB]

It sounds like teh hockies is going to consider a playoff format that rewards the top teams with home rink in the first round. Apparently its all on neutral ice now. Thats why teh hockies fans at UND havent cared much about losing home playoff games: THEY DIDNT HAVE ANY! Now things are changing.

Its a money making deal for the NCAA. Attendance at these games has not always been good. A big butthockey arena is about the size of the Fabulous Fargo Dome and the first round games in some venues have had well under 10,000. The home ice rule will bring meaning back to the longest season in college sports, add revenues for the NCAA and reward home fans for buying tickets all winter long. Its also driven by the formation of Big Ten Hockey.

Some are saying its a move to further force UNDs hand in the nickname battle but that is clearly not the case.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/a ... id/201752/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[SouthDakotaGrizzly]

Can someone explain why it's derogatory for UND to use Fighting Sioux as a nickname, but yet the majority of reservation high schools in Montana, North Dakota and South Dakota have mascots such as Braves, Indians, Redmen, Warriors, etc.? There's even one rez high school in South Dakota (McGlaughlin) that's the Midgets. Where is the outcry from the little people? WHERE???!!! I'm calling my senator...

[UNI88]

i'm mistaken - there are no Turtle Mountain Lakota... it's an Ojibwe tribe... what confuses me is that an Ojibwe tribe would get any input at all on a Lakota issue...

Good question. That would be like giving the English a vote an whether Fighting Irish is allowed. The Chippewa pushed the Sioux out of Minnesota and into the Plains in the first place.

[Landshark]

What the heck more do these arrogant, racist and twisting nincompoops need to get it????

The racists at the NCAA will never "get it." Fighting Irish o.k., Fighting Sioux not. Why does the NCAA and PC pinheads hate aboriginal pride?

[JBB]

The Native Americans brought pressure to bear on the NCAA forcing their hand on this issue. They also put pressure on the NFL and other leagues causing a lot of nickname to change. So far no Irish folks have come forward to initiate change at Notre Dame.

The NCAA did not initiate this themselves, although any liberal run and dominated, left wing, broke university, with fast rising tuition unable to keep pace with much faster rising costs would have been capable of this type of thing.

[GeauxSioux]

The Native Americans brought pressure to bear on the NCAA forcing their hand on this issue. They also put pressure on the NFL and other leagues causing a lot of nickname to change. So far no Irish folks have come forward to initiate change at Notre Dame.

The NCAA did not initiate this themselves, although any liberal run and dominated, left wing, broke university, with fast rising tuition unable to keep pace with much faster rising costs would have been capable of this type of thing.

Brought pressure to bear on the NCAA forcing their hand??? What possible leverage do the Native Americans have that they could hold over the NCAA?