Cuban Uprising

[∞∞∞]

For the record, democratic mixed economies are my preference. Marx, Engels, Smith, and Locke all had economic philosophies I agree and disagree with.

[AZGrizFan]

So, where has capitalism failed? Are you saying the Czars of Russia were a capitalist society?

Capitalism (like communism and other economic systems) fails people depending on where you lie in the system. For tens of millions in the US and elsewhere, it has already failed.

It is a failure those people. Period. To you, it's a success.

There is no right and wrong here, which is why DEMOCRACY is more precious than any specific economic system.

You said "communism rose from the failure of capitalism". I would like to know, specifically, WHERE and WHEN that first occurred, in your mind.

[∞∞∞]

Capitalism (like communism and other economic systems) fails people depending on where you lie in the system. For tens of millions in the US and elsewhere, it has already failed.

It is a failure those people. Period. To you, it's a success.

There is no right and wrong here, which is why DEMOCRACY is more precious than any specific economic system.

You said "communism rose from the failure of capitalism". I would like to know, specifically, WHERE and WHEN that first occurred, in your mind.

The Communist Manifesto was literally written because of the failures of capitalism...I haven't read it in a while but pretty sure Marx mentions this on the first few pages. He eventually coins the term capitalism too (in Das Kapital).

It didn't have a name, but capitalism was hurting people way before you and me were born and Marx recognized it.

So there is no first. The rise is slow and gradual but borne out of the failures of one economic system and the attempt to find a better alternative.

[AZGrizFan]

You said "communism rose from the failure of capitalism". I would like to know, specifically, WHERE and WHEN that first occurred, in your mind.

The Communist Manifesto was literally written because of the failures of capitalism...I haven't read it in a while but pretty sure Marx mentions this on the first few pages.

Capitalism was hurting people way before you and me were born.

There is no FIRST. The rise is slow and gradual, but borne out of the failures of one economic system and the attempt to find a better alternative.

Ah. So Russia was a capitalist economy before Lenin....who knew? I guess nobody told the serfs and peasants (or the Czars, apparently).

And while there have been many "attempt(s) to find a better alternative" one thing is certain: SOCIALISM AIN'T IT. That has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[Ibanez]

So, where has capitalism failed? Are you saying the Czars of Russia were a capitalist society?

Capitalism (like communism and other economic systems) fails people depending on where you lie in the system. For tens of millions in the US and elsewhere, it has already failed.

It is a failure those people. Period. To you, it's a success.

There is no right and wrong here, which is why DEMOCRACY is more precious than any specific economic system.

I'm a bit confused - are you suggesting that Democracy is an economic system? In either case, I thought you were against majority-rule governments? Which economic system do you prefer? Perhaps some hybrid?

[∞∞∞]

The Communist Manifesto was literally written because of the failures of capitalism...I haven't read it in a while but pretty sure Marx mentions this on the first few pages.

Capitalism was hurting people way before you and me were born.

There is no FIRST. The rise is slow and gradual, but borne out of the failures of one economic system and the attempt to find a better alternative.

Ah. So Russia was a capitalist economy before Lenin....who knew? I guess nobody told the serfs and peasants (or the Czars, apparently).

Who is arguing Russia was some full-fledged capitalist nation before the rise of the socialist movement?

[AZGrizFan]

Ah. So Russia was a capitalist economy before Lenin....who knew? I guess nobody told the serfs and peasants (or the Czars, apparently).

Who is arguing Russia was some full-fledged capitalist nation before the rise of the socialist movement?

Uh.....you.

[∞∞∞]

I'm at work on my phone so I can't continue you this now, but the point is any economic system works if enough people have bought into it.

Socialism/Capitalism/Communism works if people are happy with that economic system. Anything will fail if it reaches a critical mass where a society doesn't care for it anymore.

[AZGrizFan]

I'm at work on my phone so I can't continue you this now, but the point is any economic system works if enough people have bought into it. It fails when the opposite happens.

Socialism/Capitalism/Communism works if people are happy with that economic system. Anything will fail if it reaches a critical mass where a society doesn't care for it anymore.

My GOD the goalposts have moved in just 20-30 posts on this thread.

[∞∞∞]

I'm at work on my phone so I can't continue you this now, but the point is any economic system works if enough people have bought into it. It fails when the opposite happens.

Socialism/Capitalism/Communism works if people are happy with that economic system. Anything will fail if it reaches a critical mass where a society doesn't care for it anymore.

My GOD the goalposts have moved in just 20-30 posts on this thread.

Now I remember why I stopped posting here.

Anyways, protect and expand democracy first. Anything else is secondary.

[AZGrizFan]

My GOD the goalposts have moved in just 20-30 posts on this thread.

Now I remember why I stopped posting here.

Anyways, protect and expand democracy first. Anything else is secondary.

And now I remember why I stopped responding to your posts. You make broad, inaccurate, or blatantly WRONG statements (as FACT), then move the goal posts when anyone tries to pin you down on your bullshit.

That may work on the marxist message boards you frequent, but it ain't gonna fly here.

[Ibanez]

Who is arguing Russia was some full-fledged capitalist nation before the rise of the socialist movement?

Uh.....you.

Wait....Did I miss that post??? I don't recall that.

[Ibanez]

My GOD the goalposts have moved in just 20-30 posts on this thread.

Now I remember why I stopped posting here.

Anyways, protect and expand democracy first. Anything else is secondary.

Stick around - my posts were sincere. Answer them when you have time.

[AZGrizFan]

Uh.....you.

Wait....Did I miss that post??? I don't recall that.

He said "communism rose from the failure of capitalism", and even claimed Marx addressed the failures of capitalism in the first few pages of Mein Kampf (or whatever shitty book Marx wrote ). Now he's taken his ball and gone home because people are calling him on his bullshit, twisted, irreconcilable arguments.

[Ibanez]

I'm at work on my phone so I can't continue you this now, but the point is any economic system works if enough people have bought into it.

Socialism/Capitalism/Communism works if people are happy with that economic system. Anything will fail if it reaches a critical mass where a society doesn't care for it anymore.

There's also the power that is either handed over to the state (capitalism) and those taken at gun point (Socialism). There's a balance among civil rights, individualism, free-enterprise, the market..among other things. There is a "happy" medium somewhere - we just don't know what it is yet.

Personally, I don't think it's socialism/communism due to economic stagnation being a hallmark of them (China is an obvious exception).

[Ibanez]

Wait....Did I miss that post??? I don't recall that.

He said "communism rose from the failure of capitalism", and even claimed Marx addressed the failures of capitalism in the first few pages of Mein Kampf (or whatever shitty book Marx wrote ). Now he's taken his ball and gone home because people are calling him on his bullshit, twisted, irreconcilable arguments.

I think you read into that, IMO. Russia at that time was a monarchy. It was a failure of the imperial / monarchy that lead to the revolutions in 1907 & 1917.

And Mein Kampf was Hilter....and an autobiography at that. It's vastly different than the Communist Manifesto (more like a deranged lunatic manifesto).

[AZGrizFan]

He said "communism rose from the failure of capitalism", and even claimed Marx addressed the failures of capitalism in the first few pages of Mein Kampf (or whatever shitty book Marx wrote ). Now he's taken his ball and gone home because people are calling him on his bullshit, twisted, irreconcilable arguments.

I think you read into that, IMO. Russia at that time was a monarchy. It was a failure of the imperial / monarchy that lead to the revolutions in 1907 & 1917.

And Mein Kampf was Hilter....and an autobiography at that. It's vastly different than the Communist Manifesto (more like a deranged lunatic manifesto).

Well when he's spewing shit then he needs to be clearer. Russia was HARDLY a capitalist economy when the Czars were overthrown. Hell they were BARELY out of feudalism and serfdom. So to blame the "rise of communism on the failures of capitalism" is comical, misguided and dangerous.

[andy7171]

My GOD the goalposts have moved in just 20-30 posts on this thread.

Now I remember why I stopped posting here.

Anyways, protect and expand democracy first. Anything else is secondary.

...because holes are poked thoroughly through all of your utopian ideas?

[Ibanez]

I think you read into that, IMO. Russia at that time was a monarchy. It was a failure of the imperial / monarchy that lead to the revolutions in 1907 & 1917.

And Mein Kampf was Hilter....and an autobiography at that. It's vastly different than the Communist Manifesto (more like a deranged lunatic manifesto).

Well when he's spewing shit then he needs to be clearer. Russia was HARDLY a capitalist economy when the Czars were overthrown. Hell they were BARELY out of feudalism and serfdom. So to blame the "rise of communism on the failures of capitalism" is comical, misguided and dangerous.

I agree - it's more of a failure of monarchy's than capitalism. China replaced its millennia old monarchy in the early 20th Century with a Republic that never truly established control or got off the ground (constant fighting, warlords, ineffectual government) and eventually was overthrown by communists within 40 yrs (approx).

[∞∞∞]

AZ, you're seeing or reading what you want to from me.

Marx and Engels (who are German btw) wrote about the effect of private capital on the working class in Europe. Capitalism at this point exists, albeit without a name, alongside monarchies ​and democracies.

Eventually their philosophy takes hold, sweeps throughout Europe and the world, and evolves in a million ways depending on each society. Like capitalism, the varieties of socialism lift tens of millions out of poverty. Some great things are done under those economies as well. However like all economic philosophies, many others are hurt finding themselves on the wrong side of it.

Each society and generation needs to nurture whatever economic system it has chosen to utilize to help as many people as possible. Otherwise I don't care if it's feudalism or capitalism or communism, it will eventually fail and be replaced.

Anyways, I wish the Cuban people the best whatever happens.

[kalm]

AZ, you're seeing or reading what you want to from me.

Marx and Engels (who are German btw) wrote about the effect of private capital on the working class in Europe. Capitalism at this point exists, albeit without a name, alongside monarchies ​and democracies.

Eventually their philosophy takes hold, sweeps throughout Europe and the world, and evolves in a million ways depending on each society. Like capitalism, the varieties of socialism lift tens of millions out of poverty. Some great things are done under those economies as well. However like all economic philosophies, many others are hurt finding themselves on the wrong side of it.

Each society and generation needs to nurture whatever economic system it has chosen to utilize to help as many people as possible. Otherwise I don't care if it's feudalism or capitalism or communism, it will eventually fail and be replaced.

Anyways, I wish the Cuban people the best whatever happens.

Solid post and pretty much what you were saying from the start.

Z...go find an economic safe space and take a break.

[SDHornet]

Who is arguing Russia was some full-fledged capitalist nation before the rise of the socialist movement?

Uh.....you.

Que the mental gymnastics from Trip.

[Ibanez]

AZ, you're seeing or reading what you want to from me.

Marx and Engels (who are German btw) wrote about the effect of private capital on the working class in Europe. Capitalism at this point exists, albeit without a name, alongside monarchies ​and democracies.

Eventually their philosophy takes hold, sweeps throughout Europe and the world, and evolves in a million ways depending on each society. Like capitalism, the varieties of socialism lift tens of millions out of poverty. Some great things are done under those economies as well. However like all economic philosophies, many others are hurt finding themselves on the wrong side of it.

Each society and generation needs to nurture whatever economic system it has chosen to utilize to help as many people as possible. Otherwise I don't care if it's feudalism or capitalism or communism, it will eventually fail and be replaced.

Anyways, I wish the Cuban people the best whatever happens.

One thing that people tend to forget or just don't know is that Marx was putting forth a theory...an idea. Take all, some or none of it but his philosophies were just that. When put into practice we've seen theories prove themselves and disprove themselves. Adapt and try again.

We aren't the same capitalist country we were 40 or 50 years ago, we're changing (for better/worse is up to debate I guess.)

[∞∞∞]

I agree wholeheartedly.

[kalm]

AZ, you're seeing or reading what you want to from me.

Marx and Engels (who are German btw) wrote about the effect of private capital on the working class in Europe. Capitalism at this point exists, albeit without a name, alongside monarchies ​and democracies.

Eventually their philosophy takes hold, sweeps throughout Europe and the world, and evolves in a million ways depending on each society. Like capitalism, the varieties of socialism lift tens of millions out of poverty. Some great things are done under those economies as well. However like all economic philosophies, many others are hurt finding themselves on the wrong side of it.

Each society and generation needs to nurture whatever economic system it has chosen to utilize to help as many people as possible. Otherwise I don't care if it's feudalism or capitalism or communism, it will eventually fail and be replaced.

Anyways, I wish the Cuban people the best whatever happens.

One thing that people tend to forget or just don't know is that Marx was putting forth a theory...an idea. Take all, some or none of it but his philosophies were just that. When put into practice we've seen theories prove themselves and disprove themselves. Adapt and try again.

We aren't the same capitalist country we were 40 or 50 years ago, we're changing (for better/worse is up to debate I guess.)

Dude wrote a book and all hell broke loose.

(Don’t tell anyone that Lincoln and Adam Smith suggested that labor precedes capital. )