For-Profit Colleges Rape Vets: Capitalists Being Capitalists

[Cap'n Cat]

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/lawmake ... 8C11566148" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;




And, of course, Dem Senators lead effort to beat it back.......

America made a commitment to veterans of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan: In return for their service, the country would help pay for their college education when they came home.

Since the Post-9/11 GI Bill went into effect in August of 2009, the federal government has paid more than $30 billion in tuition and benefits, according to new figures from the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs released on Friday. The VA said this money has now helped 1 million vets, servicemembers and their families get college degrees or technical training.

Most of this money goes to for-profit colleges and universities. Eight of the 10 schools receiving the most GI Bill dollars are for-profits, according to a 2012 report from the Senate Committee on Health Education Labor and Pensions (HELP).

Sen. Tom Harkin (D-IA), who chairs that committee, accuses some non-profits of using “predatory and deceptive tactics to target servicemembers and veterans for enrollment” in order to tap their federal educational benefits.

There’s nothing wrong with an educational institution making money, but there is a growing sense among government regulators that some of these schools take federal money and don’t deliver on their promise of providing degrees that lead to good jobs.

“We are very concerned about false claims about graduation rates, placement rates and possible earnings after graduation,” said Lois Greisman with the Federal Trade Commission. “Not only are false claims unacceptable, they’re illegal. We’re looking into this. It’s a top priority for the agency and if we find schools that are violating the law, we plan to take appropriate action.”

Holly Petraeus helps run the Office of Servicemember Affairs at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB). She said some for-profit schools serve military students well and give them a good education that can lead to civilian employment.

“But there have definitely been some that see it more as a profit-making exercise,” Petraeus said. “They spend a lot more money on recruiting than actual counseling or concern about graduation rates and gainful employment.”

[Pwns]

Good luck. There's legions of college grads who mistakenly thought a degree meant a job would fall into their laps, and lawsuits in the past over universities supposedly exaggerating job prospects haven't exactly been successful.

[GannonFan]

I never understand this "for-profit" versus "not-for-profit" distinction of colleges. When I get 2 or 3 calls a year from Delaware, and "not-for-profit" college asking for more money while tuition has also skyrocketed (up almost 100% for out of state in the past 20 years) and their endowment is well about $1B, I have a hard time seeing that as being "not-for-profit". I think it's a way that many colleges try to distract people from the fact that colleges are making a boat load of money.

As for the story in question, if anyone is making up stats or just flat out lying then yes, they should be taken to the woodshed. However, if all they are doing is showing their historical performance (in terms of job placement) then they'll probably get off. Past performance does not guarantee future performance.

[Cap'n Cat]

I never understand this "for-profit" versus "not-for-profit" distinction of colleges. When I get 2 or 3 calls a year from Delaware, and "not-for-profit" college asking for more money while tuition has also skyrocketed (up almost 100% for out of state in the past 20 years) and their endowment is well about $1B, I have a hard time seeing that as being "not-for-profit". I think it's a way that many colleges try to distract people from the fact that colleges are making a boat load of money.

As for the story in question, if anyone is making up stats or just flat out lying then yes, they should be taken to the woodshed. However, if all they are doing is showing their historical performance (in terms of job placement) then they'll probably get off. Past performance does not guarantee future performance.

Past performance, though, is the best indicator of future performance, in anything.

[GannonFan]

I never understand this "for-profit" versus "not-for-profit" distinction of colleges. When I get 2 or 3 calls a year from Delaware, and "not-for-profit" college asking for more money while tuition has also skyrocketed (up almost 100% for out of state in the past 20 years) and their endowment is well about $1B, I have a hard time seeing that as being "not-for-profit". I think it's a way that many colleges try to distract people from the fact that colleges are making a boat load of money.

As for the story in question, if anyone is making up stats or just flat out lying then yes, they should be taken to the woodshed. However, if all they are doing is showing their historical performance (in terms of job placement) then they'll probably get off. Past performance does not guarantee future performance.

Past performance, though, is the best indicator of future performance, in anything.

So you're siding with the for profit (again, horrible term) colleges in this case? If they did have a good track record of graduates obtaining employment and used that as an advertisement for their schools you would be fine with that? Does the Cappy who made the first post know that you feel differently now?

[Cap'n Cat]

Past performance, though, is the best indicator of future performance, in anything.

So you're siding with the for profit (again, horrible term) colleges in this case? If they did have a good track record of graduates obtaining employment and used that as an advertisement for their schools you would be fine with that? Does the Cappy who made the first post know that you feel differently now?

You're extrapolating badly, Ganny. Those for-profit colleges (an applicable term in this regard) are knowingly fucking vets and going after easy Fed cash. You know it, too.

[GannonFan]

So you're siding with the for profit (again, horrible term) colleges in this case? If they did have a good track record of graduates obtaining employment and used that as an advertisement for their schools you would be fine with that? Does the Cappy who made the first post know that you feel differently now?

You're extrapolating badly, Ganny. Those for-profit colleges (an applicable term in this regard) are knowingly **** vets and going after easy Fed cash. You know it, too.

And so are every other college and university in America. They all see the easy Fed cash and amazingly, have all jacked up tuitions and helped them apply for and get that said federal cash. How is the University of Phoenix, for example, a for profit university, and the University of Delaware is not?

[Cap'n Cat]

You're extrapolating badly, Ganny. Those for-profit colleges (an applicable term in this regard) are knowingly **** vets and going after easy Fed cash. You know it, too.

And so are every other college and university in America. They all see the easy Fed cash and amazingly, have all jacked up tuitions and helped them apply for and get that said federal cash. How is the University of Phoenix, for example, a for profit university, and the University of Delaware is not?

Read the article.

Most of this money goes to for-profit colleges and universities. Eight of the 10 schools receiving the most GI Bill dollars are for-profits, according to a 2012 report from the Senate Committee on Health Education Labor and Pensions (HELP).

Sen. Tom Harkin (D-IA), who chairs that committee, accuses some non-profits of using “predatory and deceptive tactics to target servicemembers and veterans for enrollment” in order to tap their federal educational benefits.

80% of the money is going to those diploma mills, something UD and UNI are not. The state U's, by and large, are motivated by more honorable goals than fast cash, Fanny. Right?

Continue to bark, but you're barking up the wrong tree.

[GannonFan]

And so are every other college and university in America. They all see the easy Fed cash and amazingly, have all jacked up tuitions and helped them apply for and get that said federal cash. How is the University of Phoenix, for example, a for profit university, and the University of Delaware is not?

Read the article.

Most of this money goes to for-profit colleges and universities. Eight of the 10 schools receiving the most GI Bill dollars are for-profits, according to a 2012 report from the Senate Committee on Health Education Labor and Pensions (HELP).

Sen. Tom Harkin (D-IA), who chairs that committee, accuses some non-profits of using “predatory and deceptive tactics to target servicemembers and veterans for enrollment” in order to tap their federal educational benefits.

80% of the money is going to those diploma mills, something UD and UNI are not. The state U's, by and large, are motivated by more honorable goals than fast cash, Fanny. Right?

Continue to bark, but you're barking up the wrong tree.

If you just look at the small piece of the pie that is the GI money, yes. But why ignore the much bigger picture of overally student tuition aid that overwhelmingly goes to the class of colleges called "not for profit"? I'd like to believe that UD and UNI are motivated by more honorable goals but then I'm confronted with tuition spikes that don't point to any particular honorable goal other than bringing in more money and I can't think of those goals. Can you?

[SuperHornet]

For once, I gotta side with the Cap'n. Diploma mills such as U of Phoenix, WyoTech, and Heald press the high-pressure hard sale more reminiscent of old-school used car lots. I almost got suckered into being one of Heald's head-hunters. I just couldn't do it. Those "degrees" aren't worth the paper they're printed on....

[HI54UNI]

Maybe the solution is to get the govt out of the higher education business.

[AZGrizFan]

Maybe the solution is to get the govt out of the higher education business.

No, that couldn't possibly be it.

[GannonFan]

For once, I gotta side with the Cap'n. Diploma mills such as U of Phoenix, WyoTech, and Heald press the high-pressure hard sale more reminiscent of old-school used car lots. I almost got suckered into being one of Heald's head-hunters. I just couldn't do it. Those "degrees" aren't worth the paper they're printed on....

And diplomas from third and fourth tier "not for profit" colleges have proven to be so worth the money kids have run up debt to obtain. Especially as they have jacked up tuition by large percentages.

[Cap'n Cat]

For once, I gotta side with the Cap'n. Diploma mills such as U of Phoenix, WyoTech, and Heald press the high-pressure hard sale more reminiscent of old-school used car lots. I almost got suckered into being one of Heald's head-hunters. I just couldn't do it. Those "degrees" aren't worth the paper they're printed on....

And diplomas from third and fourth tier "not for profit" colleges have proven to be so worth the money kids have run up debt to obtain. Especially as they have jacked up tuition by large percentages.

Ganny,
This is another dumb bunny-hole crusade....and kinda Conky. I like 90% of your posts, but, you needn't comment on everything on the board.

[AZGrizFan]

And diplomas from third and fourth tier "not for profit" colleges have proven to be so worth the money kids have run up debt to obtain. Especially as they have jacked up tuition by large percentages.

Ganny,
This is another dumb bunny-hole crusade....and kinda Conky. I like 90% of your posts, but, you needn't comment on everything on the board.

Except he's 100% right. The gov't makes student loan money/VA $$ easy to get and 98% of the colleges in America double and triple their tuition rates. Everybody wants to get their snout in that gov't trough. 90% of the diplomas printed aren't worth the paper they're printed on, let alone the $30k-$180k parents spend or borrow to GET that diploma. Honestly, unless someone' resume has an Ivy League school, Duke, MIT, Stanford or a handful of other schools on it the rest of them are interchangeable.

[Cap'n Cat]

Ganny,
This is another dumb bunny-hole crusade....and kinda Conky. I like 90% of your posts, but, you needn't comment on everything on the board.

Except he's 100% right. The gov't makes student loan money/VA $$ easy to get and 98% of the colleges in America double and triple their tuition rates. Everybody wants to get their snout in that gov't trough. 90% of the diplomas printed aren't worth the paper they're printed on, let alone the $30k-$180k parents spend or borrow to GET that diploma. Honestly, unless someone' resume has an Ivy League school, Duke, MIT, Stanford or a handful of other schools on it the rest of them are interchangeable.

This, from a guy who spent 20 years Hoovering at said trough!

[AZGrizFan]

Except he's 100% right. The gov't makes student loan money/VA $$ easy to get and 98% of the colleges in America double and triple their tuition rates. Everybody wants to get their snout in that gov't trough. 90% of the diplomas printed aren't worth the paper they're printed on, let alone the $30k-$180k parents spend or borrow to GET that diploma. Honestly, unless someone' resume has an Ivy League school, Duke, MIT, Stanford or a handful of other schools on it the rest of them are interchangeable.

This, from a guy who spent 20 years Hoovering at said trough!

Really? On Veterans Day?

[Cap'n Cat]

This, from a guy who spent 20 years Hoovering at said trough!

Really? On Veterans Day?

I thanked you for your service above, Millie!

[GannonFan]

And diplomas from third and fourth tier "not for profit" colleges have proven to be so worth the money kids have run up debt to obtain. Especially as they have jacked up tuition by large percentages.

Ganny,
This is another dumb bunny-hole crusade....and kinda Conky. I like 90% of your posts, but, you needn't comment on everything on the board.

No worries, I can decide for myself what to comment on and what to avoid (i.e. posts from expandsos).

But I don't see why you are so truculent in this discussion and why you want to let colleges and universities off scott free when it comes to their gobbling up of federal resources simply because they can and they want the money. Are you employed by a state university and this is hitting close to home?

All schools now, and that mainly includes the supposedly "not for profit" schools that are raking in tons of profits now, only graduate 60% of their students in 6 years. Not 4 years, not 5, but 6 years. And even then it's only a little more than half. Where is the concern over that depressing stat? Not only are kids paying record amounts of money and accumulating record amount of debt in the process, they're not even getting the diplomas for which they are spending a fortune on trying to get, and even if they get it, they've spent more than half a decade of time and money doing so.

Complaining about the for profit schools, while certainly correct and worthwhile, also misses the huge elephant in the room that is the money sucking hole that supposedly "not for profit" schools have become. Not sure why you want to bury your head in the sand about that.

[Cap'n Cat]

Ganny,
This is another dumb bunny-hole crusade....and kinda Conky. I like 90% of your posts, but, you needn't comment on everything on the board.

Complaining about the for profit schools, while certainly correct and worthwhile,

Then, enough said, Dad.

80%, remember......

[GannonFan]

Complaining about the for profit schools, while certainly correct and worthwhile,

Then, enough said, Dad.

80%, remember......

And the head in the sand continues. If you're going to do the 80/20 rule then why you ignore the much larger issue of "not for profit" schools causing the much larger problem of massive student debt with 60% of the kids not even getting a diploma in 6 years is not following the 80/20 rule. Come on, Cappy, you're better than that.

[Cap'n Cat]

Then, enough said, Dad.

80%, remember......

And the head in the sand continues. If you're going to do the 80/20 rule then why you ignore the much larger issue of "not for profit" schools causing the much larger problem of massive student debt with 60% of the kids not even getting a diploma in 6 years is not following the 80/20 rule. Come on, Cappy, you're better than that.

Ganny,
You painted yourself into a Conk corner several posts back, your head firmly potted in the loam. I'm talking about the 80% affair (a main point in the article) and you're running down bunny holes. If you want to excoriate state institutions in this issue, we suggest you start a thread about it. Cool?

Stick to the issue. You're better than that, son!

[GannonFan]

And the head in the sand continues. If you're going to do the 80/20 rule then why you ignore the much larger issue of "not for profit" schools causing the much larger problem of massive student debt with 60% of the kids not even getting a diploma in 6 years is not following the 80/20 rule. Come on, Cappy, you're better than that.

Ganny,
You painted yourself into a Conk corner several posts back, your head firmly potted in the loam. I'm talking about the 80% affair (a main point in the article) and you're running down bunny holes. If you want to excoriate state institutions in this issue, we suggest you start a thread about it. Cool?

Stick to the issue. You're better than that, son!

And the 80% just refers to GI dollars, which is a scant amount of the money that the federal government is spending on financing higher education. Again, you're picking the smaller issue to address while ignoring the larger issue. I understand that you think for profit colleges makes a great talking poitn, but talking points tend to exist to steer people away from the more important matters. While you worry about these small potatoes, the larger issue still stands - the vast majority of money exiting the federal government and entering higher education is in the not for profit sector of colleges and universities, and at those places, despite the promises of the riches that come with education, almost half of the kids entering those schools, after 6 years, and tons of debt, don't have diplomas. Excoriating the Univ of Phoenix makes for great headlines, but it misses the vastly bigger issue that's out there. That's what sticking your head in sand is.

[Cap'n Cat]

Ganny,
You painted yourself into a Conk corner several posts back, your head firmly potted in the loam. I'm talking about the 80% affair (a main point in the article) and you're running down bunny holes. If you want to excoriate state institutions in this issue, we suggest you start a thread about it. Cool?

Stick to the issue. You're better than that, son!

And the 80% just refers to GI dollars, which is a scant amount of the money that the federal government is spending on financing higher education. Again, you're picking the smaller issue to address while ignoring the larger issue. I understand that you think for profit colleges makes a great talking poitn, but talking points tend to exist to steer people away from the more important matters. While you worry about these small potatoes, the larger issue still stands - the vast majority of money exiting the federal government and entering higher education is in the not for profit sector of colleges and universities, and at those places, despite the promises of the riches that come with education, almost half of the kids entering those schools, after 6 years, and tons of debt, don't have diplomas. Excoriating the Univ of Phoenix makes for great headlines, but it misses the vastly bigger issue that's out there. That's what sticking your head in sand is.

Ganny,
Preach somewhere else. You have this need to pontificate on everything, but you're in left field on this one; miles from the point and just looking to babble about the periphery but not what's germane to the issue at hand. Pull your head out of the sand and move on, son. Or, better yet, we welcome you to start a separate thread!

[Pwns]

Can we all just agree that

1. Something has to be done about institutions that take federal money and don't deliver a product that's worth a crap.

2. For-profits make up a disproportionate amount of these institutions, but some public and private institutions are problematic as well

?