78 MPG in Europe. Americans are being scammed. Bend Over

[expandspanos]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L58Yw68Xv1M[/youtube]

[Ibanez]

This isn't new. I drove a Mercedes in Germany back in 2010 that gets better mileage than my Hybrid car does.

[Gil Dobie]

I was getting 50 mpg back in 1986, Chevy Sprint.

[expandspanos]

I was getting 50 mpg back in 1986, Chevy Sprint.

You're right- a 1987 Chevy Sprint got between 45-50 MPG.

The Honda Civics of the same time frame used to get 67 MPG highway.

We are being ripped off, it's really that simple.

Stan Meyer allegedly had developed a car that ran on hydrogen extracted from water.. A "water car".. no more gas needed.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpp19QqHvL4[/youtube]

[93henfan]

I was getting 50 mpg back in 1986, Chevy Sprint.

You're right- a 1987 Chevy Sprint got between 45-50 MPG.

The Honda Civics of the same time frame used to get 67 MPG highway.

We are being ripped off, it's really that simple.

Stan Meyer allegedly had developed a car that ran on hydrogen extracted from water.. A "water car".. no more gas needed.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpp19QqHvL4[/youtube]

VW (and others) would gladly bring these vehicles to the US if they could sell them for a profit. The only thing "ripping us off" is our own tendency to buy really stupid yee-haw vehicles. We're a country of lard asses that drive our F-150s to Wal-Mart and the largest load they ever carry is ten bags of groceries (yes, I'm generalizing - but not much). People in this country spend WAY too much on automobiles and buy vehicles with WAY more capability than they need. And these bloated vehicles bring nice profits for the manufacturers. Why would they pay for CARB/EPA certifications of $15K vehicles that will barely make any money when our dumb asses keep scooping up $30K vehicles that make us feel cool? The only thing that will get this country buying sensible vehicles is the absence of cheap gas (ie. gas in the $5+ range).

Regarding the water car, please don't tell me you fell for that bullshit too? C'mon man, you can't be that dumb. Google the "enthalpy of formation" of water. It is negative, meaning you must put more energy into separating it into hydrogen and oxygen than you get back from either of those two elements.

[93henfan]

By the way, I've gotten 61.0 mpg and 61.2 mpg respectively on my last two trips home from VA to DE, a ~135 mile leg (see videos below). This equates to 73.3 British Imperial MPG to give an apples to apples comparison with the video Spandos posted, which quotes European mileage figures. This is driving 5 - 10 mph over the speed limit, encountering some mild traffic, resulting in an average of 55 mph each leg from start to stop. We've had a bit of spirited competition on TDIClub.com in our 2012+ Passat TDIs. These things are just awesome on highway trips when the weather is nice:

http://s235.photobucket.com/user/93blue ... 0.mp4.html

http://s235.photobucket.com/user/93blue ... c.mp4.html

[∞∞∞]

A few things:

1. 78 Imperial MPG = 64 US MPG.
2. EPA testing is much more realistic that European testing. European testing is usually about 25% off real world driving while the EPA's new standards seem to be 10% off.
-So 64 US MPG in Europe is really closer to 48 US MPG in real life.
3. Emission standards are much higher in Europe, requiring more refined fuels and engines.
Because of the third point:
4. Fuel costs in Europe are on average, 2.3x higher.
5. Car costs in Europe are on average, 1.7x higher.

So let's take a Jetta TDI (manual):

Europe:
$27,000
67 Imperial MPG Combined = 56 US MPG (x .75) = 42 US MPG in the real world.
Avg. of $8.31/Gallon for diesel (right now).

America:
$23,000
34 US MPG Combined (x .90) = 31 MPG in the real world.
Avg. of $3.80/Gallon for diesel (right now).

So Americans save $4,000 right off the bat for the initial purchase price. And then for $8.31 for diesel (the price for one Imperial gallon in Europe), US drivers can buy 2.18 US gallons...which will get you 65ish miles of driving distance compared to 42 in Europe.

[93henfan]

3. Emission standards are much higher in Europe, requiring more refined fuels and engines.

Not true for diesel, but great post otherwise. US Tier 2 Bin 5 is more stringent than Euro cert.

And yes, I mentioned the imperial conversion. People always goo and gah over Euro mileage figures but forget to deduct for the conversion.

[∞∞∞]

3. Emission standards are much higher in Europe, requiring more refined fuels and engines.

Not true for diesel, but great post otherwise.

And yes, I mentioned the imperial conversion. People always goo and gah over Euro mileage figures but forget to deduct for the conversion.

My mistake. I thought it was for both gasoline and diesel.

[clenz]

A few things:

1. 78 Imperial MPG = 64 US MPG.
2. EPA testing is much more realistic that European testing. European testing is usually about 25% off real world driving while the EPA's new standards seem to be 10% off.
-So 64 US MPG in Europe is really closer to 48 US MPG in real life.
3. Emission standards are much higher in Europe, requiring more refined fuels and engines.
Because of the third point:
4. Fuel costs in Europe are on average, 2.3x higher.
5. Car costs in Europe are on average, 1.7x higher.

So let's take a Jetta TDI (manual):

Europe:
$27,000
67 Imperial MPG Combined = 56 US MPG (x .75) = 42 US MPG in the real world.
Avg. of $8.31/Gallon for diesel (right now).

America:
$23,000
34 US MPG Combined (x .90) = 31 MPG in the real world.
Avg. of $3.80/Gallon for diesel (right now).

So Americans save $4,000 right off the bat for the initial purchase price. And then for $8.31 for diesel (the price for one Imperial gallon in Europe), US drivers can buy 2.18 US gallons...which will get you 65ish miles of driving distance compared to 42 in Europe.

[93henfan]

Not true for diesel, but great post otherwise.

And yes, I mentioned the imperial conversion. People always goo and gah over Euro mileage figures but forget to deduct for the conversion.

My mistake. I thought it was for both gasoline and diesel.

Euro was more stringent on diesel until CARB successfully forced through the 15ppm standard for Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel in 2006 and the Tier 2 Bin 5 emission standard. This moved the US into the "clean diesel" era and manufacturers had to scramble to implement all sorts of new fangled devices and technology into their diesel powertrains. Every new diesel sold (from VWs to big rigs) now has one or more diesel particulate filters (DPF) and some combination of heavy exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) or downstream treatment of the exhaust with a urea solution (my Passat utilizes "AdBlue" fluid for this).

Some designs have been more successful than others. VW has been remarkably successfully, perfecting both a non-urea system (Jetta/Golf) as well as a urea system (Passat/Touareg). If you Google the Navistar compliance debacle, you can read probably the worst horror story. Navistar, one of the premier makers of big rig diesel engines, was concerned about going bankrupt about a year ago when their heavy EGR design could not meet EPA compliance regs. Finally, the EPA saved their ass by drastically reducing their fines. Still, they pay a fine of almost $2,000 for every engine they currently produce. They are supposed to have a new design soon that will meet the reg.

[CID1990]

You're right- a 1987 Chevy Sprint got between 45-50 MPG.

The Honda Civics of the same time frame used to get 67 MPG highway.

We are being ripped off, it's really that simple.

Stan Meyer allegedly had developed a car that ran on hydrogen extracted from water.. A "water car".. no more gas needed.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpp19QqHvL4[/youtube]

VW (and others) would gladly bring these vehicles to the US if they could sell them for a profit. The only thing "ripping us off" is our own tendency to buy really stupid yee-haw vehicles. We're a country of lard asses that drive our F-150s to Wal-Mart and the largest load they ever carry is ten bags of groceries (yes, I'm generalizing - but not much). People in this country spend WAY too much on automobiles and buy vehicles with WAY more capability than they need. And these bloated vehicles bring nice profits for the manufacturers. Why would they pay for CARB/EPA certifications of $15K vehicles that will barely make any money when our dumb asses keep scooping up $30K vehicles that make us feel cool? The only thing that will get this country buying sensible vehicles is the absence of cheap gas (ie. gas in the $5+ range).

Regarding the water car, please don't tell me you fell for that bullshit too? C'mon man, you can't be that dumb. Google the "enthalpy of formation" of water. It is negative, meaning you must put more energy into separating it into hydrogen and oxygen than you get back from either of those two elements.

Correct. Hydrolysis of water is only economical using a fuel efficient power source like nuclear.

Until the greens get the stick out of their ass over nuke power, hydrogen fuel cell technology will remain a curiosity.


Sent from the center of the universe.

[JohnStOnge]

All other things aside, I've got to have a pickup truck. Once I got one in 1998 I realized that for me it's the thing. Not because of the way it looks or anything. It's because you can haul stuff in it. It just makes life better. As long as I can help it I will never again be without a pickup truck.

And yes I know you can carry kayaks on top of a car but it's much easier if you have a pickup truck. Besides there are other things. Like when you go get a bunch of pine straw bales for the garden or you have to move furniture. So on and so forth. So don't even bother me with MPG figures for cars. Talk to me about pickup trucks that get great gas mileage and I'm listening.

[JohnStOnge]

We're a country of lard asses that drive our F-150s to Wal-Mart and the largest load they ever carry is ten bags of groceries (yes, I'm generalizing - but not much).

Dude I don't know if you have a pickup truck but if you don't and you ever get one you will be astounded at how handy it is to have one. You may not need it every day but you will run into times when it makes things a whole hell of a lot more convenient than they would otherwise be. Of course you will also frequently have cases in which other people will want to borrow it because they don't have their own and they need to haul something.

[houndawg]

I need one, and wish I could have had my Tacoma with a diesel like the rest of the planet.

[93henfan]

We're a country of lard asses that drive our F-150s to Wal-Mart and the largest load they ever carry is ten bags of groceries (yes, I'm generalizing - but not much).

Dude I don't know if you have a pickup truck but if you don't and you ever get one you will be astounded at how handy it is to have one. You may not need it every day but you will run into times when it makes things a whole hell of a lot more convenient than they would otherwise be. Of course you will also frequently have cases in which other people will want to borrow it because they don't have their own and they need to haul something.

I said I was generalizing. Sheesh. Yes, I've owned a Sierra 1500 and my dad always has a Silverado.

Still, you can't deny how many people buy a truck for two or three hauls a year. They are phenomenally bad on fuel efficiency as daily drivers. It would be way cheaper to just rent a U-Haul pickup the three times a year they need to move something. The truck is more for style than utility.

[93henfan]

I need one, and wish I could have had my Tacoma with a diesel like the rest of the planet.

You can thank the Chicken Tax and continued CARB/EPA stonewalling for that.

[andy7171]

By the way, I've gotten 61.0 mpg and 61.2 mpg respectively on my last two trips home from VA to DE, a ~135 mile leg (see videos below). This equates to 73.3 British Imperial MPG to give an apples to apples comparison with the video Spandos posted, which quotes European mileage figures. This is driving 5 - 10 mph over the speed limit, encountering some mild traffic, resulting in an average of 55 mph each leg from start to stop. We've had a bit of spirited competition on TDIClub.com in our 2012+ Passat TDIs. These things are just awesome on highway trips when the weather is nice:

http://s235.photobucket.com/user/93blue ... 0.mp4.html

http://s235.photobucket.com/user/93blue ... c.mp4.html

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRsPheErBj8[/youtube]

[kalm]

By the way, I've gotten 61.0 mpg and 61.2 mpg respectively on my last two trips home from VA to DE, a ~135 mile leg (see videos below). This equates to 73.3 British Imperial MPG to give an apples to apples comparison with the video Spandos posted, which quotes European mileage figures. This is driving 5 - 10 mph over the speed limit, encountering some mild traffic, resulting in an average of 55 mph each leg from start to stop. We've had a bit of spirited competition on TDIClub.com in our 2012+ Passat TDIs. These things are just awesome on highway trips when the weather is nice:

http://s235.photobucket.com/user/93blue ... 0.mp4.html

http://s235.photobucket.com/user/93blue ... c.mp4.html

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRsPheErBj8[/youtube]

[Ibanez]

We're a country of lard asses that drive our F-150s to Wal-Mart and the largest load they ever carry is ten bags of groceries (yes, I'm generalizing - but not much).

Dude I don't know if you have a pickup truck but if you don't and you ever get one you will be astounded at how handy it is to have one. You may not need it every day but you will run into times when it makes things a whole hell of a lot more convenient than they would otherwise be. Of course you will also frequently have cases in which other people will want to borrow it because they don't have their own and they need to haul something.

They are handy. But not always necessary. My brother works from home, travels 4-5 days a week and he drives a Ford 350 SuperCab. The most he hauls in it is the occasional deer.

[Ibanez]

Dude I don't know if you have a pickup truck but if you don't and you ever get one you will be astounded at how handy it is to have one. You may not need it every day but you will run into times when it makes things a whole hell of a lot more convenient than they would otherwise be. Of course you will also frequently have cases in which other people will want to borrow it because they don't have their own and they need to haul something.

I said I was generalizing. Sheesh. Yes, I've owned a Sierra 1500 and my dad always has a Silverado.

Still, you can't deny how many people buy a truck for two or three hauls a year. They are phenomenally bad on fuel efficiency as daily drivers. It would be way cheaper to just rent a U-Haul pickup the three times a year they need to move something. The truck is more for style than utility.

In Europe you see cars pulling trailers. Aside from commercial vehicles, I don't think I saw a single truck in France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany or Austria.

[CID1990]

I said I was generalizing. Sheesh. Yes, I've owned a Sierra 1500 and my dad always has a Silverado.

Still, you can't deny how many people buy a truck for two or three hauls a year. They are phenomenally bad on fuel efficiency as daily drivers. It would be way cheaper to just rent a U-Haul pickup the three times a year they need to move something. The truck is more for style than utility.

In Europe you see cars pulling trailers. Aside from commercial vehicles, I don't think I saw a single truck in France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany or Austria.

And in the other 90% of the world, every other car is a truck.