The Problem with Wind Power

[HI54UNI]

Working on some stuff today at work and made this graph. It is a good visual representation of the problem with wind power so I thought I'd share. The red line shows our utility's monthly peak and the blue line shows the total monthly wind capacity we receive from the 3 wind farms we buy power from.

April is a great month but as our electric loads increase in the summer our wind power production goes down. We have to buy other resources for the summer months to cover this decrease so we end up paying for two generation sources instead of one.

[youngterrier]

I have 5 Nuclear power plants within 100 miles from me

[YoUDeeMan]

Wind power blows.

[mainejeff]

Doesn't it depend where you put the wind turbines???

[kalm]

Dammit, I'm an American. I want my energy instantly gratifying.

[Thumper 76]

Doesn't it depend where you put the wind turbines???

You're right, those dummies should think of that instead of just throwing those bastards up willy nilly /sarcasm

[89Hen]

Dammit, I'm an American. I want my energy instantly gratifying.

I would like it when I need it.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

If Algore and Sean Penn can go without the way they do, then I think you can manage as well.........................

[kalm]

Dammit, I'm an American. I want my energy instantly gratifying.

I would like it when I need it.

Quitter.

[89Hen]

I would like it when I need it.

Quitter.

Yup. I'm a comfy American that likes AC when it's 90 out and heat when it's 40 out.

[kalm]

Quitter.

Yup. I'm a comfy American that likes AC when it's 90 out and heat when it's 40 out.

Soft.

[HI54UNI]

Doesn't it depend where you put the wind turbines???

We buy from 3 different projects with a total of 125 turbines between the three. The two largest projects are all in the yellow areas (best wind) on the map. The 3rd project is in a green area but it also only has 3 turbines so it doesn't amount to very much either way.

Doesn't it depend where you put the wind turbines???

You're right, those dummies should think of that instead of just throwing those bastards up willy nilly /sarcasm

No power companies build these in areas that are bad just so they can complain about it. MJ has us figured out.

[Thumper 76]

Doesn't it depend where you put the wind turbines???

We buy from 3 different projects with a total of 125 turbines between the three. The two largest projects are all in the yellow areas (best wind) on the map. The 3rd project is in a green area but it also only has 3 turbines so it doesn't amount to very much either way.

You're right, those dummies should think of that instead of just throwing those bastards up willy nilly /sarcasm

No power companies build these in areas that are bad just so they can complain about it. MJ has us figured out.

MJ is onto those sneaky trickster bastards.

[Ivytalk]

I can't pass up a "wind power" thread without my TYPICAL GRATUITOUS JOE BIDEN REFERENCE!

[GannonFan]

What's the problem? Houndawg has said that all we have to do to acheive breakthroughs in alternative energy is to believe that we are able to create these breakthroughs (and it helps if the President challenges us, ala JFK, to do so). Messy details like these are all the obstacles of little minds. We need to think we can, and we will!

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Working on some stuff today at work and made this graph. It is a good visual representation of the problem with wind power so I thought I'd share. The red line shows our utility's monthly peak and the blue line shows the total monthly wind capacity we receive from the 3 wind farms we buy power from.

April is a great month but as our electric loads increase in the summer our wind power production goes down. We have to buy other resources for the summer months to cover this decrease so we end up paying for two generation sources instead of one.

I have to say, I've never met anyone in the wind industry who believes that somehow, someday, we'll be able to run the country on the breeze...

the people i've met who think that are mostly naive hippies who are all about composting our own shit in the backyard types... in other words - fools who nobody cares about

most of the wind energy folks i know talk about wind, in select areas as providing up to 50% of the power. which, on balance is pretty damn good thing. it'll never replace entirely the need for large generators... but that's not really the point.

by the look of it you guys are pulling around 20% of from wind... pretty impressive when you consider the alternatives...

[HI54UNI]

Working on some stuff today at work and made this graph. It is a good visual representation of the problem with wind power so I thought I'd share. The red line shows our utility's monthly peak and the blue line shows the total monthly wind capacity we receive from the 3 wind farms we buy power from.

April is a great month but as our electric loads increase in the summer our wind power production goes down. We have to buy other resources for the summer months to cover this decrease so we end up paying for two generation sources instead of one.

I have to say, I've never met anyone in the wind industry who believes that somehow, someday, we'll be able to run the country on the breeze...

the people i've met who think that are mostly naive hippies who are all about composting our own shit in the backyard types... in other words - fools who nobody cares about

most of the wind energy folks i know talk about wind, in select areas as providing up to 50% of the power. which, on balance is pretty damn good thing. it'll never replace entirely the need for large generators... but that's not really the point.

by the look of it you guys are pulling around 20% of from wind... pretty impressive when you consider the alternatives...

As you mention the wind industry people know better and the hippies are dumb asses. The problem is the ignorance of the public and more importantly the ignorance of legislators on the issue. So many people don't understand how electricity works and policy is set by those same people. And then they will scream bloody murder when they flip the switch and it doesn't work.

And wind energy can provide 50% of the energy but not 50% of the capacity. To a lay person that doesn't mean much but to those in the power biz it is a big deal.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

I have to say, I've never met anyone in the wind industry who believes that somehow, someday, we'll be able to run the country on the breeze...

the people i've met who think that are mostly naive hippies who are all about composting our own shit in the backyard types... in other words - fools who nobody cares about

most of the wind energy folks i know talk about wind, in select areas as providing up to 50% of the power. which, on balance is pretty damn good thing. it'll never replace entirely the need for large generators... but that's not really the point.

by the look of it you guys are pulling around 20% of from wind... pretty impressive when you consider the alternatives...

As you mention the wind industry people know better and the hippies are dumb asses. The problem is the ignorance of the public and more importantly the ignorance of legislators on the issue. So many people don't understand how electricity works and policy is set by those same people. And then they will scream bloody murder when they flip the switch and it doesn't work.

And wind energy can provide 50% of the energy but not 50% of the capacity. To a lay person that doesn't mean much but to those in the power biz it is a big deal.

it's a huge deal, and it's all the difference in the world. people can talk a big game, but nobody is really going to except brownouts if went exclusively with such an unreliable source. (hence my support for nuclear power as a bridge to the next leaps in technology)

[oldsloguy]

it'll never replace entirely the need for large generators......

Maybe HI54UNI can straighten me out on this, but I don’t think that wind will replace any appreciable generating capacity. HI54UNI’s plot shows monthly averages but on days when the wind doesn’t blow the load is still there and must be generated using conventional methods.

I posted this a back in Aug.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=17188&p=331094&hil ... ve#p331094" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HI54UNI a couple of questions:

What is the price structure for your wind power purchases relative to other sources?

How do you guys or your grid operator (if you are not a grid operator) manage your spinning reserves relative to wind power purchases?

When purchasing wind power do you pay for the wind and then have to add additional spinning reserve, and if so, who pays for that?

BTW good post.

[Wedgebuster]

Who would have ever thought to put up wind turbines anywhere near the center of the universe?

[LeadBolt]

The energy problem is so large that no solutions can be ruled out at this time. WInd is certainly a portion of the equation, along with bio-fuels, hydro, nat. gas, oil, coal, nuclear, solar, etc. Each and every one of these sources has pluses and minuses. In addition we need to research new and innovative ways to both generate energy and conserve it.

Unfortunately, the problem is so large that it is hard to get your head around the whole thing so that we all tend to gravitate to our own pet solutions and get stuck there, much like the compost guys, and then we politicize it, making it even harder to deal with.

The unrest around the world points to our need to become energy self-sufficent and to do so as quickly as is possible, which unfortunately is a long way off at best. If we are to maintain our standard of living, we need to continue to produce wealth. To produce wealth requires energy being available at a reasonable cost, both in economic and environmental terms. We can not pretend that business as normal will get us anywhere.

We need to accept the challenge to engineer as clean and safe solutions as we can, knowing that there will be negative impacts from all solutions, go ahead and bite the bullet and move ahead on all fronts.

Where is Admiral Farragut when you need him?

[Thumper 76]

The energy problem is so large that no solutions can be ruled out at this time. WInd is certainly a portion of the equation, along with bio-fuels, hydro, nat. gas, oil, coal, nuclear, solar, etc. Each and every one of these sources has pluses and minuses. In addition we need to research new and innovative ways to both generate energy and conserve it.

Unfortunately, the problem is so large that it is hard to get your head around the whole thing so that we all tend to gravitate to our own pet solutions and get stuck there, much like the compost guys, and then we politicize it, making it even harder to deal with.

The unrest around the world points to our need to become energy self-sufficent and to do so as quickly as is possible, which unfortunately is a long way off at best. If we are to maintain our standard of living, we need to continue to produce wealth. To produce wealth requires energy being available at a reasonable cost, both in economic and environmental terms. We can not pretend that business as normal will get us anywhere.

We need to accept the challenge to engineer as clean and safe solutions as we can, knowing that there will be negative impacts from all solutions, go ahead and bite the bullet and move ahead on all fronts.

Where is Admiral Farragut when you need him?

This is quite possible the most perfect political post ever. It gives a good and warm and fuzzy message, is really long so it makes you feel like something is being answered, but answers nothing and doesn't address anything specifically. Raises problems and says you fix it, but at least I'm making you feel good about making you fix it for me.

[kalm]

Dumb question for you smarter than hippies wind experts:

Why can't wind be used off grid as a supplement? You can't look at the flag outside, flip a switch for a few hours and then when it goes limp return to traditional power?

[TwinTownBisonFan]

The energy problem is so large that no solutions can be ruled out at this time. WInd is certainly a portion of the equation, along with bio-fuels, hydro, nat. gas, oil, coal, nuclear, solar, etc. Each and every one of these sources has pluses and minuses. In addition we need to research new and innovative ways to both generate energy and conserve it.

Unfortunately, the problem is so large that it is hard to get your head around the whole thing so that we all tend to gravitate to our own pet solutions and get stuck there, much like the compost guys, and then we politicize it, making it even harder to deal with.

The unrest around the world points to our need to become energy self-sufficent and to do so as quickly as is possible, which unfortunately is a long way off at best. If we are to maintain our standard of living, we need to continue to produce wealth. To produce wealth requires energy being available at a reasonable cost, both in economic and environmental terms. We can not pretend that business as normal will get us anywhere.

We need to accept the challenge to engineer as clean and safe solutions as we can, knowing that there will be negative impacts from all solutions, go ahead and bite the bullet and move ahead on all fronts.

Where is Admiral Farragut when you need him?

This is quite possible the most perfect political post ever. It gives a good and warm and fuzzy message, is really long so it makes you feel like something is being answered, but answers nothing and doesn't address anything specifically. Raises problems and says you fix it, but at least I'm making you feel good about making you fix it for me.

but to be a "perfect political post" wouldn't it require tons of ad hominem attacks, strawmen, false dichotomys, cheap heuristic references to past events, various red herrings, personal swipes, intellectual short cuts and excessive belittling and use of emoticons?

[Thumper 76]

This is quite possible the most perfect political post ever. It gives a good and warm and fuzzy message, is really long so it makes you feel like something is being answered, but answers nothing and doesn't address anything specifically. Raises problems and says you fix it, but at least I'm making you feel good about making you fix it for me.

but to be a "perfect political post" wouldn't it require tons of ad hominem attacks, strawmen, false dichotomys, cheap heuristic references to past events, various red herrings, personal swipes, intellectual short cuts and excessive belittling and use of emoticons?

So it was a summary of one