Great idea to Save the Country

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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by JohnStOnge »

Obama won the most educated voters by 13 points.
Yes that is true and it is consistent with recent historical patterns. But, again, that does not mean that Democrats would benefit from what I propose. We both know the opposite would likely be the case.

Me, I wish I could see further breakdowns of that. I'd like to see breakdown by race. I'd like to see breakdown by sex. I'd like to see breakdown by area of study.

I have an article from the 1990s in the bookmarks of my computer (I'm usually on my wife's when I'm on this board) in which it was reported that the majority of males with post grad degrees tends to vote Republican while the majority of females with post grad degrees tend to vote Democrat. If so that may explain at least some of what we see in exit polling. The table at http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d07/ ... 07_178.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; shows that, as of 2005 - 2006, women accounted for 58% of those holding post grad degrees while men accounted for 42%.

I suspect that a lot of those are Masters' degrees held by women in educational fields. Like my wife's friend the teacher with her Masters. I suspect that Democrats hold a substantial edge among such women. I'd like to see a breakdown by inside and outside of the educational establishment with the educational establishment including being working for a College or University. Also government employment in general to include the educational establishment.

Also suspect that race is a factor. Exit poll displays I've seen don't break it down by education x race enough to get to post grads. This year the sucky exit poll display at CNN doesn't provide an education x race breakdown at all. So I'll go back to 2008. In 2008 college graduates overall voted by 53% to 45% for Obama over McCain but White College graduates voted by 51% to 47% for McCain over Obama. No doubt that White college grads were less likely than Whites overall to vote for Romney (51% vs. 55%), but you can see that race was still a factor among college grads even in a very good year for the Democratic candidate.

I'd expect that Blacks are disproportionately under represented among those with post grad degrees. On the other hand I'd expect that Asians including ethnic old world Indian and Pakistani types are disproportionately over represented and those ethnic groups tend to vote overwhelmingly for Democrats (that may be the single fact I see in exit polling data that baffles me the most).

Anyway it doesn't matter. Requiring passing a citizenship test equivalent to what legal immigrants have to pass would hurt the Democrats because the Democrats have a huge edge among the least educated and informed. And those are the people who would be excluded in by far the largest proportion. Get rid of the "Zombie Vote" and you get rid of Democrats as President and Democrats holding majorities in either House of Congress. Sure, you'd still have Democrats controlling a number of individual States because the national demographic voting patterns don't necessarily hold up in each individual State. But on a nationally level in terms of influence on the national government they'd be screwed.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by UNI88 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
Typical loser talk, John.
Not really. If you've been familiar with me from another message board I used to frequent before it began to stifle political discussion by kicking people like Capn Cat and D1B off, I have always said that whether Republicans win or lose. It's part of the background. To win, Republicans have to do well enough to overcome the fact that the Democrats do have that "Zombie Vote" advantage. It's part of the game. Democrats start with an advantage in the "Zombie Vote" factor and in the voter fraud factor. And I'll still be saying that the next time a Republican wins the White House.

Take the well publicized phenomenon whereby 19,605 votes were cast in 59 Philadelphia precincts and Romney got 0 of them. If you want to believe that you can have a population, regardless of race or anything else, such that such a thing can happen when people are engaged, have some rudimentary understanding of what's going on around them. and think for themselves then go ahead. But you sure as heck can't blame somebody like me for thinking otherwise.

Of course there's also the possibility of voter fraud. But it's not realistic to think that you're going to have 19,605 people from an identifiable geographic units within a single geographic area be engaged in what's going on in the world and thinking for themselves and have not a single vote cast for one of the two major candidates. Frankly, it's not even realistic to think that not even one person would accidentally vote for Romney when they meant to vote for Obama. But that's another story.

And, yes, I know there were precincts in Utah were no votes were cast for Obama. But they were precincts in low population areas where he won by votes like 14-0 and 17-0. That kind of thing does not stretch credibility in terms of the probability that someone, somehow (intentionally or otherwise) would vote the other way.
John, both parties have their "zombie" factions. How many redneck types vote republican blindly? How are they any different than democrats who do the same thing?
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by kalm »

UNI88 wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
Not really. If you've been familiar with me from another message board I used to frequent before it began to stifle political discussion by kicking people like Capn Cat and D1B off, I have always said that whether Republicans win or lose. It's part of the background. To win, Republicans have to do well enough to overcome the fact that the Democrats do have that "Zombie Vote" advantage. It's part of the game. Democrats start with an advantage in the "Zombie Vote" factor and in the voter fraud factor. And I'll still be saying that the next time a Republican wins the White House.

Take the well publicized phenomenon whereby 19,605 votes were cast in 59 Philadelphia precincts and Romney got 0 of them. If you want to believe that you can have a population, regardless of race or anything else, such that such a thing can happen when people are engaged, have some rudimentary understanding of what's going on around them. and think for themselves then go ahead. But you sure as heck can't blame somebody like me for thinking otherwise.

Of course there's also the possibility of voter fraud. But it's not realistic to think that you're going to have 19,605 people from an identifiable geographic units within a single geographic area be engaged in what's going on in the world and thinking for themselves and have not a single vote cast for one of the two major candidates. Frankly, it's not even realistic to think that not even one person would accidentally vote for Romney when they meant to vote for Obama. But that's another story.

And, yes, I know there were precincts in Utah were no votes were cast for Obama. But they were precincts in low population areas where he won by votes like 14-0 and 17-0. That kind of thing does not stretch credibility in terms of the probability that someone, somehow (intentionally or otherwise) would vote the other way.
John, both parties have their "zombie" factions. How many redneck types vote republican blindly? How are they any different than democrats who do the same thing?
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

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John, both parties have their "zombie" factions. How many redneck types vote republican blindly? How are they any different than democrats who do the same thing?
For starters I think a substantially greater percentage of them would pass the citizenship test. Oh, there would be a high failure rate among the people I think you're getting at. But the passage rate would be much higher than it would be among the "Zombie Voters" I'm talking about.

We could do a test to see who is more engaged. We could all agree that, next Presidential election, there will be no "get out the vote" effort by either party. No "ground game." Then see what happens.

And I think we know what would happen. The Democrats would be hurt far more.

You will have to take my word for it but I've heard a certain theme from political consultants I've listened too over the years. That theme is that people who vote Republican tend to be more engaged and informed than people who vote Democrat are. So Republicans have an advantage in terms of people paying attention to what's going on and being motivated to vote. I have heard both Democratic and Republican consultants say that and I have never heard any of them say otherwise or disagree with that.

I did a quick Google search and found a Pew poll from 2011 that is consistent with the belief that Republican voters are a little better informed. Go to http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1944/politi ... y-facebook" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and scroll down to "Partisan Differences in Knowledge." You can see that the rates at which those in the Republican sample correctly answered the 11 questions were higher than those at which Democrats answered them is higher in 8 of the 11 cases. Also, the Republicans had the edge in all three instances in which the differences were large enough to be "statistically significant." That's why the text indicates, "Republicans are more likely than Democrats to correctly answer three of the 11 questions" even though there were 8 cases in which Republicans in the sample correctly answered at a higher rate. I ran the numbers and they're using the 95% confidence level. The difference has to be >8 percent to reach that (that's consistent with what I got trying to approximate it).

Republicans also had the edge over Independents. Those in the Republican sample answered correctly at a higher rate than those in the Independent sample in 7 of 11 cases with one tie. The Republicans had the edge in the two cases in which the differences are "statistically significant."

The differences are not huge and you could probably switch some issues and get somewhat different results. But I've looked at this stuff for many years and when I consider what I see in polls, test scores, the comments of political talking heads and consultants over the years, and other things I am absolutely confident that Republican voters in general are more engaged and informed. Any successful effort to eliminate the least informed and/or engaged would help the Republicans substantially. Also any successful effort to selectively eliminate voters who just vote by reflex without really thinking about what they're doing. I am absolutely convinced of that and it's not an opinion I arrived upon just because it's what I want to believe.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

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Also noted in the article on the knowledge poll I linked that that those in the 18 to 29 age group answered correctly at the lowest rates among age groups when it came to questions on political issues. Oh yeah, they were tops in knowing who the founder of Facebook is and stuff like that. But when it came to stuff like having an idea as to what the unemployment rate was, who the Speaker of the House is, which program the federal government spends most on, etc., they correctly answered at the lowest rates.

Can you guess which age group tends to vote in the highest proportions for the Democratic candidates in Presidential elections?
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

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Here's another one:

http://www.people-press.org/2011/11/07/ ... -pictures/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In that one Republicans answered all 19 of the questions correctly at higher rates than Democrats and the differences in rates were "statistically significant" in 13 of the 19 cases.

And, while you'll have to take my word for it, I did not sort through poll results in order to get the result I wanted. I just did a Google search and took the first two reports on that kind of polling I found.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

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You're getting to be like those bitter-end Japanese soldiers that kept popping up on Pacific islands back in the 80s. :lol:


You lost John. The black man is President again. Get over it.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

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You're getting to be like those bitter-end Japanese soldiers that kept popping up on Pacific islands back in the 80s. :lol:


You lost John. The black man is President again. Get over it.
You know very well that it's not because he's Black. It's because he and the Party he belongs to have been slowly destroying this country for close to a century now and will continue to do so as long as they have the power to do it. And I lament the fact that we have reached a situation whereby a bunch of "Zombie Voters" who have no clue as to what's going on along with some who are not "Zombie Voters" but who have figured out that they can vote themselves benefits while making someone else pay for them are going to ensure that the Democratic Party has power.

Believe me I know the future is not bright. As the demographics of the country evolve in the way they are evolving it will get worse and worse. And along with it the United States will be lost in terms of what it was and had potential to be. It will become a land of corruption and squalor. It is already well on its way.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by Ibanez »

JohnStOnge wrote:
You're getting to be like those bitter-end Japanese soldiers that kept popping up on Pacific islands back in the 80s. :lol:


You lost John. The black man is President again. Get over it.
You know very well that it's not because he's Black. It's because he and the Party he belongs to have been slowly destroying this country for close to a century now and will continue to do so as long as they have the power to do it. And I lament the fact that we have reached a situation whereby a bunch of "Zombie Voters" who have no clue as to what's going on along with some who are not "Zombie Voters" but who have figured out that they can vote themselves benefits while making someone else pay for them are going to ensure that the Democratic Party has power.

Believe me I know the future is not bright. As the demographics of the country evolve in the way they are evolving it will get worse and worse. And along with it the United States will be lost in terms of what it was and had potential to be. It will become a land of corruption and squalor. It is already well on its way.
Are you implying that the GOP doesn't have safe, "zombie" voters each election?
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by houndawg »

JohnStOnge wrote:
You're getting to be like those bitter-end Japanese soldiers that kept popping up on Pacific islands back in the 80s. :lol:


You lost John. The black man is President again. Get over it.
You know very well that it's not because he's Black. It's because he and the Party he belongs to have been slowly destroying this country for close to a century now and will continue to do so as long as they have the power to do it. And I lament the fact that we have reached a situation whereby a bunch of "Zombie Voters" who have no clue as to what's going on along with some who are not "Zombie Voters" but who have figured out that they can vote themselves benefits while making someone else pay for them are going to ensure that the Democratic Party has power.

Believe me I know the future is not bright. As the demographics of the country evolve in the way they are evolving it will get worse and worse. And along with it the United States will be lost in terms of what it was and had potential to be. It will become a land of corruption and squalor. It is already well on its way.


:ohno:

Just come out and say it John. You can stop with the phony pseudo-intellectual claptrap.


Learn Spanish, John, before you're swept on to the rubbish heap of our national story....
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by BlueHen86 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
You're getting to be like those bitter-end Japanese soldiers that kept popping up on Pacific islands back in the 80s. :lol:


You lost John. The black man is President again. Get over it.
You know very well that it's not because he's Black. It's because he and the Party he belongs to have been slowly destroying this country for close to a century now and will continue to do so as long as they have the power to do it. And I lament the fact that we have reached a situation whereby a bunch of "Zombie Voters" who have no clue as to what's going on along with some who are not "Zombie Voters" but who have figured out that they can vote themselves benefits while making someone else pay for them are going to ensure that the Democratic Party has power.

Believe me I know the future is not bright. As the demographics of the country evolve in the way they are evolving it will get worse and worse. And along with it the United States will be lost in terms of what it was and had potential to be. It will become a land of corruption and squalor. It is already well on its way.
No, we don't. In fact, the more you post about this, the more I become convinced that it is a race issue with you.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by kalm »

BlueHen86 wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:
You know very well that it's not because he's Black. It's because he and the Party he belongs to have been slowly destroying this country for close to a century now and will continue to do so as long as they have the power to do it. And I lament the fact that we have reached a situation whereby a bunch of "Zombie Voters" who have no clue as to what's going on along with some who are not "Zombie Voters" but who have figured out that they can vote themselves benefits while making someone else pay for them are going to ensure that the Democratic Party has power.

Believe me I know the future is not bright. As the demographics of the country evolve in the way they are evolving it will get worse and worse. And along with it the United States will be lost in terms of what it was and had potential to be. It will become a land of corruption and squalor. It is already well on its way.
No, we don't. In fact, the more you post about this, the more I become convinced that it is a race issue with you.
Perhaps he's a gay black man...on the inside.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

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No, we don't. In fact, the more you post about this, the more I become convinced that it is a race issue with you.
There is a race issue involved but it's not who the candidate is. It's the demographics of voting. As I've written before I would be thrilled to have, say, Allen West as President (even though it looks like he didn't win his House race). Just using him as an example to make the point that I would have absolutely no problem with a Black person being President if that person expresses beliefs about the role of government that is reasonably consistent with my own.

Race comes in because that's the reality of the political calculus right now. The Democratic Party has the power it does because overwhelming majorities of ethnic minorities vote for them. I didn't create that situation. It is what it is.

Now, I think the reason for that is because most ethnic minorities want handouts. I'm talking about handouts in direct financial terms as well as "handouts" in terms of affirmative action mentality.

If that's not what you think it is, what DO you think it is? You know, on the big social issues, Blacks and Hispanics are more conservative than Whites are. Higher proportions of them are pro life and anti homosexual marriage.

So if it's not that they want handouts, why are they voting in overwhelming majority lock step for Democrats?
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by Chizzang »

Obama won 7 of the 9 swing States
AND: Iowa / Wisconsin / Ohio / New Hampshire / Colorado: Are pretty much WHITE people states
How does Romney lose with all those white people in those states..?

Not to mention all the conservative pundits (and I do mean ALL) predicted a Romney win
A few notable ones even predicted a LANDSLIDE
A LANDSLIDE

You strike me as being just as out of touch with America as they are...




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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

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Step 1 to saving the country: Exile JSO.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by mrklean »

JohnStOnge wrote:
No, we don't. In fact, the more you post about this, the more I become convinced that it is a race issue with you.
There is a race issue involved but it's not who the candidate is. It's the demographics of voting. As I've written before I would be thrilled to have, say, Allen West as President (even though it looks like he didn't win his House race). Just using him as an example to make the point that I would have absolutely no problem with a Black person being President if that person expresses beliefs about the role of government that is reasonably consistent with my own.

Race comes in because that's the reality of the political calculus right now. The Democratic Party has the power it does because overwhelming majorities of ethnic minorities vote for them. I didn't create that situation. It is what it is.

Now, I think the reason for that is because most ethnic minorities want handouts. I'm talking about handouts in direct financial terms as well as "handouts" in terms of affirmative action mentality.
If that's not what you think it is, what DO you think it is? You know, on the big social issues, Blacks and Hispanics are more conservative than Whites are. Higher proportions of them are pro life and anti homosexual marriage.

So if it's not that they want handouts, why are they voting in overwhelming majority lock step for Democrats?
BULLSHIT!!!! Wanting a fair playing field is different than wanting a handout. MOST AA want a level field so the best person can get the job. Most people I know want to be able to earn as much money as they can. The problem is the GOOD Ole Boy network that pisses most Minorites off. Ive seent it many times and one one wants to do anything about it.This is why you have affirmative action.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

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mrklean wrote:BULLSHIT!!!! Wanting a fair playing field is different than wanting a handout. MOST AA want a level field so the best person can get the job. Most people I know want to be able to earn as much money as they can. The problem is the GOOD Ole Boy network that pisses most Minorites off. Ive seent it many times and one one wants to do anything about it.This is why you have affirmative action.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by UNI88 »

JohnStOnge wrote:
John, both parties have their "zombie" factions. How many redneck types vote republican blindly? How are they any different than democrats who do the same thing?
For starters I think a substantially greater percentage of them would pass the citizenship test. Oh, there would be a high failure rate among the people I think you're getting at. But the passage rate would be much higher than it would be among the "Zombie Voters" I'm talking about.
John, you might be right in aggregate but you're using a pretty broad brush to paint a lot of people and I don't think the difference would be that significant. I would guess that your average OWS zombie has a decent IQ and education and would have better odds of passing the citizenship test than your average Tea Party zombie.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by Chizzang »

UNI88 wrote:
John, you might be right in aggregate but you're using a pretty broad brush to paint a lot of people and I don't think the difference would be that significant. I would guess that your average OWS zombie has a decent IQ and education and would have better odds of passing the citizenship test than your average Tea Party zombie.
Considering that the Tea Party is the group that was completely unaware that prior to the McCarthyism Era fear tactics in the 1950's the word GOD didn't appear anywhere or on anything government related...

They know less about (actual) American history than probably any population of Americans

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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by mrklean »

Chizzang wrote:
UNI88 wrote:
John, you might be right in aggregate but you're using a pretty broad brush to paint a lot of people and I don't think the difference would be that significant. I would guess that your average OWS zombie has a decent IQ and education and would have better odds of passing the citizenship test than your average Tea Party zombie.
Considering that the Tea Party is the group that was completely unaware that prior to the McCarthyism Era fear tactics in the 1950's the word GOD didn't appear anywhere or on anything government related...

They know less about (actual) American history than probably any population of Americans

:nod:
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by Ibanez »

Chizzang wrote:
UNI88 wrote:
John, you might be right in aggregate but you're using a pretty broad brush to paint a lot of people and I don't think the difference would be that significant. I would guess that your average OWS zombie has a decent IQ and education and would have better odds of passing the citizenship test than your average Tea Party zombie.

They know less about (actual) American history than probably any population of Americans

:nod:
This!
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by 89Hen »

Chizzang wrote:prior to the McCarthyism Era fear tactics in the 1950's the word GOD didn't appear anywhere or on anything government related...
Huh?

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SEC. 8. And be it further enacted, That the justices of the Supreme Court, and the district judges, before they proceed to execute the duties of their respective offices, shall take the following oath or affirmation, to wit: "I, A. B., do solemnly swear or affirm, that I will administer justice without respect to persons, and do equal right to the poor and to the rich, and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge and perform all the duties incumbent on me as , according to the best of my abilities and understanding, agreeably to the constitution, and laws of the United States. So help me God."
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by AZGrizFan »

89Hen wrote:
Chizzang wrote:prior to the McCarthyism Era fear tactics in the 1950's the word GOD didn't appear anywhere or on anything government related...
Huh?

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http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/judiciary_1789.htm
The Judiciary Act of 1789

SEC. 8. And be it further enacted, That the justices of the Supreme Court, and the district judges, before they proceed to execute the duties of their respective offices, shall take the following oath or affirmation, to wit: "I, A. B., do solemnly swear or affirm, that I will administer justice without respect to persons, and do equal right to the poor and to the rich, and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge and perform all the duties incumbent on me as , according to the best of my abilities and understanding, agreeably to the constitution, and laws of the United States. So help me God."
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by Ibanez »

89Hen wrote:
Chizzang wrote:prior to the McCarthyism Era fear tactics in the 1950's the word GOD didn't appear anywhere or on anything government related...
Huh?

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http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/judiciary_1789.htm
The Judiciary Act of 1789

SEC. 8. And be it further enacted, That the justices of the Supreme Court, and the district judges, before they proceed to execute the duties of their respective offices, shall take the following oath or affirmation, to wit: "I, A. B., do solemnly swear or affirm, that I will administer justice without respect to persons, and do equal right to the poor and to the rich, and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge and perform all the duties incumbent on me as , according to the best of my abilities and understanding, agreeably to the constitution, and laws of the United States. So help me God."
I believe 1864 was the first appearance on coins. Cleets must be thinking of "In God We Trust" becoming the official motto of the USA 1956 and it's inclusion on paper currency in 1957.
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Re: Great idea to Save the Country

Post by 89Hen »

Ibanez wrote:I believe 1864 was the first appearance on coins. Cleets must be thinking of "In God We Trust" becoming the official motto of the USA 1956 and it's inclusion on paper currency in 1957.
Either way, it seemed a pretty emphatic statement, ESPECIALLY considering he was questioning somebody else's knowledge of US history.
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