Who cares if Obama attends Scalia's funeral?

[JohnStOnge]

Please explain (other than Gay weddings) exactly what you're talking about - EXACTLY not vaguely

First a couple of examples:

1) We have the Federal government being able to tell someone who owns property in St. Amant, Louisiana, that they can't fill in low lying area on their property because it's a violation of the Clean Water Act that, as I understand it, is derived from Supreme Court ruling that the Constitutional power to regulate commerce between the States applies.

2) We have the Federal government being able to tell a farmer somewhere that he can't plow his field because he might kill some mouse that's protected by an Endangered Species Act that is, as I understand it, also derived from Supreme Court rulings on the commerce clause.

The idea that either one of those things is regulating commerce between the States is ridiculous. Rulings pertaining to the situation are just excuses for granting the Federal government power the Constitution doesn't really grant it.

Aside from that, as a general matter, I don't want a Judiciary that feels it is free to depart from an honest effort to depart from how each piece of language was originally understood as a general matter at the time at which the language was generated. That's because if the Judiciary does that we are not governed by a Constitution at all. As I've written before, even if you agree with the impacts (which I don't), supporting the system of Judicial oligarchy we have now because you agree with the impacts is like supporting Monarchy as a form of government because you've had good kings.

[CAA Flagship]

1) We have the Federal government being able to tell someone who owns property in St. Amant, Louisiana, that they can't fill in low lying area on their property because it's a violation of the Clean Water Act that, as I understand it, is derived from Supreme Court ruling that the Constitutional power to regulate commerce between the States applies.

I don't know about the commerce thing, but if you place fill in a flood plain, you reduce the storage volume of the floodplain. And the flood water will back up to the Palouse.

[JohnStOnge]

1) We have the Federal government being able to tell someone who owns property in St. Amant, Louisiana, that they can't fill in low lying area on their property because it's a violation of the Clean Water Act that, as I understand it, is derived from Supreme Court ruling that the Constitutional power to regulate commerce between the States applies.

I don't know about the commerce thing, but if you place fill in a flood plain, you reduce the storage volume of the floodplain. And the flood water will back up to the Palouse.

Yes but is that commerce between the States? I think the answer to that question is clearly "no." And the Court opened up a Pandora's Box by ruling that Congress has the authority to pass laws regulating anything that AFFECTS commerce between the States. After all, what does NOT arguable potentially affect commerce between States?

If we think the Federal government should have the power to regulate somebody filling up low spots on their own land then we should debate that and if there is a consensus that we should we should Amend the Constitution to give the Federal government that power. But saying that the Commerce Clause really gives the Federal government that power is a bunch of crap.

[YoUDeeMan]

Funny, it's not in the top 5 in ANY of the links provided by Flaggy. You know which state IS routinely in the top 5?

Texas.

So where are we at?
We started at "the most successful state" and have backpedaled to "Its in the top 5 in every study and number one on several". I think the next step will be a change of the word "every".
This is likely a 10 step process. Be patient.

Chizzy is driving...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QM79i-lXQ[/youtube]

[CAA Flagship]

I don't know about the commerce thing, but if you place fill in a flood plain, you reduce the storage volume of the floodplain. And the flood water will back up to the Palouse.

Yes but is that commerce between the States? I think the answer to that question is clearly "no." And the Court opened up a Pandora's Box by ruling that Congress has the authority to pass laws regulating anything that AFFECTS commerce between the States. After all, what does NOT arguable potentially affect commerce between States?

If we think the Federal government should have the power to regulate somebody filling up low spots on their own land then we should debate that and if there is a consensus that we should we should Amend the Constitution to give the Federal government that power. But saying that the Commerce Clause really gives the Federal government that power is a bunch of crap.

Clearly, I don't know the whole argument from either side, but the Mississippi River was shut down a little over a month ago from the floods we experienced.

[HI54UNI]

So where are we at?
We started at "the most successful state" and have backpedaled to "Its in the top 5 in every study and number one on several". I think the next step will be a change of the word "every".
This is likely a 10 step process. Be patient.

Chizzy is driving...

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QM79i-lXQ[/youtube]

I wonder what kind of mileage a Ford Escape gets in reverse?

[YoUDeeMan]

Yes but is that commerce between the States? I think the answer to that question is clearly "no." And the Court opened up a Pandora's Box by ruling that Congress has the authority to pass laws regulating anything that AFFECTS commerce between the States. After all, what does NOT arguable potentially affect commerce between States?

If we think the Federal government should have the power to regulate somebody filling up low spots on their own land then we should debate that and if there is a consensus that we should we should Amend the Constitution to give the Federal government that power. But saying that the Commerce Clause really gives the Federal government that power is a bunch of crap.

Clearly, I don't know the whole argument from either side, but the Mississippi River was shut down a little over a month ago from the floods we experienced.

Hmmm...my bet is that if you removed all of the concrete and asphalt in the cities that border the Mighty Miss, and her tributaries, and replace that concrete with native fauna, that there would be a lot less flooding. So, shouldn't the Commerce Act control all building in all areas of the Younited States?

[JohnStOnge]

So, shouldn't the Commerce Act control all building in all areas of the Younited States?

Yes, if you go with the idea that a Constitutional provision saying Congress has the power "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes" means Congress has the power to regulate anything that AFFECTS such commerce. Frankly that's ridiculous. It's just an excuse for expanding Federal power. But that's what we're living by right now.

What does NOT potentially affect interstate commerce? If I say I don't feel like buying a yacht that may affect interstate commerce. If I decide to put my money under my mattress that affects interstate commerce. So on and so forth.

No intellectually honest person would say that when the Commerce Clause was ratified it was understood to give Congress the power to regulate anything that AFFECTS commerce between the States.

And, objectively, somebody filling a low spot on their property is NOT interstate commerce. It's just not. The Constitution does not really give Congress the power to regulate that.

[CAA Flagship]

Clearly, I don't know the whole argument from either side, but the Mississippi River was shut down a little over a month ago from the floods we experienced.

Hmmm...my bet is that if you removed all of the concrete and asphalt in the cities that border the Mighty Miss, and her tributaries, and replace that concrete with native fauna, that there would be a lot less flooding. So, shouldn't the Commerce Act control all building in all areas of the Younited States?

There are already laws that require runoff from development sites to reduce their rates of runoff to pre-development levels. In the last 5 years or so, the requirement has been stiffened to require re-development sites (think demo of a building and constructing a new building and associated parking) to reduce their runoff rates to undeveloped runoff rates. Maryland is one of these states that have been leading the charge on this. Now, I have been talking about "rates" of runoff. Maryland has gone as far as to require the "volume" of runoff to meet undeveloped levels. That is a different animal.

If you want to know why Maryland is considered "anti-business", think about how you would fully retain 60% of the runoff from your site (this assumes 30% of rainfall runs off an undeveloped site and 90% of rainfall runs off developed site). Fuck me running. I have had to design shit like this and trust me it is extremely costly. It's not as simple as creating a pond big enough to hold the storm. You have to account for multiple storms back to back.
The only way to make a project work is to use the retained water. This includes irrigation (doesn't help in the non-growing season), installing cisterns and separate pipe systems to use the water for toilets and other non-potable uses, etc. If you are "lucky" enough to be within a drainage basin that has a regional facility that you can use, it will cost you dearly, in perpetuity, to utilize that credit.

Now floodplains are a different animal. The rainfall rates and volumes go out the window once the area becomes flooded. Floodplain areas need to be concerned with volume so as to not displace floodwaters thus causing floods in non-flood areas. So if a person fills in a low area, they need to, at least, create the same volume by excavation in order to have no net loss of floodplain volume. I don't know the floodplain laws, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's more like a 2-1 or 3-1 ratio, or more, that a person would have to mitigate.

Sorry for enginerding out.

[BDKJMU]

So, shouldn't the Commerce Act control all building in all areas of the Younited States?

Yes, if you go with the idea that a Constitutional provision saying Congress has the power "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes" means Congress has the power to regulate anything that AFFECTS such commerce. Frankly that's ridiculous. It's just an excuse for expanding Federal power. But that's what we're living by right now.

What does NOT potentially affect interstate commerce? If I say I don't feel like buying a yacht that may affect interstate commerce. If I decide to put my money under my mattress that affects interstate commerce. So on and so forth.

No intellectually honest person would say that when the Commerce Clause was ratified it was understood to give Congress the power to regulate anything that AFFECTS commerce between the States.

And, objectively, somebody filling a low spot on their property is NOT interstate commerce. It's just not. The Constitution does not really give Congress the power to regulate that.

Well you can thank FDR..

[CAA Flagship]

Funny, it's not in the top 5 in ANY of the links provided by Flaggy. You know which state IS routinely in the top 5?

Texas.

So where are we at?
We started at "the most successful state" and have backpedaled to "Its in the top 5 in every study and number one on several". I think the next step will be a change of the word "every".
This is likely a 10 step process. Be patient.

[JohnStOnge]

Well you can thank FDR

Yes I know. I think FDR being elected Presidents was one of the worst things that ever happened to this country.

And I know it's not just the Court. We've got problems with the Presidents and Congresses constantly generating legislation that's not consistent with original understanding. But since we went ahead and accepted the idea that the Court has a role in doing something about that it'd be nice if they'd do something about that instead of facilitating it.

[kalm]

Well you can thank FDR

Yes I know. I think FDR being elected Presidents was one of the worst things that ever happened to this country.

And I know it's not just the Court. We've got problems with the Presidents and Congresses constantly generating legislation that's not consistent with original understanding. But since we went ahead and accepted the idea that the Court has a role in doing something about that it'd be nice if they'd do something about that instead of facilitating it.

We're still benefiting from FDR's policies to this day. Was he perfect? No. But he understood the importance of investing in infrastructure and keeping the oligarchs in check.

[Baldy]

Yes I know. I think FDR being elected Presidents was one of the worst things that ever happened to this country.

And I know it's not just the Court. We've got problems with the Presidents and Congresses constantly generating legislation that's not consistent with original understanding. But since we went ahead and accepted the idea that the Court has a role in doing something about that it'd be nice if they'd do something about that instead of facilitating it.

We're still benefiting from FDR's policies to this day. Was he perfect? No. But he understood the importance of investing in infrastructure and keeping the oligarchs in check.

Roosevelt was King Oligarch

[AZGrizFan]

Yes I know. I think FDR being elected Presidents was one of the worst things that ever happened to this country.

And I know it's not just the Court. We've got problems with the Presidents and Congresses constantly generating legislation that's not consistent with original understanding. But since we went ahead and accepted the idea that the Court has a role in doing something about that it'd be nice if they'd do something about that instead of facilitating it.

We're still benefiting from FDR's policies to this day. Was he perfect? No. But he understood the importance of investing in infrastructure and keeping the oligarchs in check.

Holy shit, that's rich. Benefiting from FDR's policies? It's FDR's policies that have this country under a crippling debt load. And like the poster above said, he was the biggest oligarch in the past 100 years.

[AZGrizFan]

So where are we at?
We started at "the most successful state" and have backpedaled to "Its in the top 5 in every study and number one on several". I think the next step will be a change of the word "every".
This is likely a 10 step process. Be patient.

Don't hold your hand on your ass waiting for an explanation. Like everything else he posts here, it just comes from some recess of his brain, made up and spewed onto the Internet through his keyboard.

[houndawg]

Well you can thank FDR

Yes I know. I think FDR being elected Presidents was one of the worst things that ever happened to this country.
And I know it's not just the Court. We've got problems with the Presidents and Congresses constantly generating legislation that's not consistent with original understanding. But since we went ahead and accepted the idea that the Court has a role in doing something about that it'd be nice if they'd do something about that instead of facilitating it.

he was so bad that they had to enact term limits to stop people from re-electing him after his fourth term.

[kalm]

We're still benefiting from FDR's policies to this day. Was he perfect? No. But he understood the importance of investing in infrastructure and keeping the oligarchs in check.

Holy shit, that's rich. Benefiting from FDR's policies? It's FDR's policies that have this country under a crippling debt load. And like the poster above said, he was the biggest oligarch in the past 100 years.

Roosevelt was King Oligarch

(Has to be a troll)

You guys should go read Trips thread on One Nation Under God. It got quite the head steam during FDR's time. Just one example.

Teddy was probably and oligarch too.

[Baldy]

Holy shit, that's rich. Benefiting from FDR's policies? It's FDR's policies that have this country under a crippling debt load. And like the poster above said, he was the biggest oligarch in the past 100 years.

Roosevelt was King Oligarch

(Has to be a troll)

You guys should go read Trips thread on One Nation Under God. It got quite the head steam during FDR's time. Just one example.

Teddy was probably and oligarch too.

The Roosevelt family were extremely wealthy and powerful elitists. FDR is related to no less than 11 US presidents. I doubt there has ever been a more powerful and interconnected cabal in US history.

Maybe this won't hurt your sensitivities....FDR was King Plutocrat.
Does that make you feel better?

[kalm]

(Has to be a troll)

You guys should go read Trips thread on One Nation Under God. It got quite the head steam during FDR's time. Just one example.

Teddy was probably and oligarch too.

The Roosevelt family were extremely wealthy and powerful elitists. FDR is related to no less than 11 US presidents. I doubt there has ever been a more powerful and interconnected cabal in US history.

Maybe this won't hurt your sensitivities....FDR was King Plutocrat.
Does that make you feel better?

Much better, and wise back peddle!



Now excuse while I tie up some flies under my magnifying lamp powered by cheap electricity from New Deal dam construction. I'm going to be chucking some streamers at Franklin Delano Roosevelt lake this week. It's a 140 mile reservoir beloved by all for it's recreational opportunities and was created by the Grand Coulee Dam. Along the way I'll pick up some fries at Edna's in Davenport. The spuds come as a result of the Columbia Basin Reclamation Project which turned a desert into one of the most productive ag areas in the world. I'll probably launch at Fort Sookane, a park built by the CCC as part of the WPA. I better watch out for the National Park Service Rangers though.... oops, wrong Roosevelt, they came courtesy of Teddy.

(Sure am glad we no longer benefit from FDR's policies )

[Baldy]

The Roosevelt family were extremely wealthy and powerful elitists. FDR is related to no less than 11 US presidents. I doubt there has ever been a more powerful and interconnected cabal in US history.

Maybe this won't hurt your sensitivities....FDR was King Plutocrat.
Does that make you feel better?

Much better, and wise back peddle!

Educating kalm is a back peddle.

[AZGrizFan]

Now excuse while I tie up some flies under my magnifying lamp powered by cheap electricity from New Deal dam construction. I'm going to be chucking some streamers at Franklin Delano Roosevelt lake this week. It's a 140 mile reservoir beloved by all for it's recreational opportunities and was created by the Grand Coulee Dam. Along the way I'll pick up some fries at Edna's in Davenport. The spuds come as a result of the Columbia Basin Reclamation Project which turned a desert into one of the most productive ag areas in the world. I'll probably launch at Fort Sookane, a park built by the CCC as part of the WPA. I better watch out for the National Park Service Rangers though.... oops, wrong Roosevelt, they came courtesy of Teddy.

(Sure am glad we no longer benefit from FDR's policies )

You sure about 'dat?

The dam had severe negative consequences for the local Native American tribes whose traditional way of life revolved around salmon and the original shrub steppe habitat of the area. Because it lacks a fish ladder, Grand Coulee Dam permanently blocks fish migration, removing over 1,100 mi (1,770 km) of natural spawning habitat. By largely eliminating anadromous fish above the Okanogan River, the Grand Coulee Dam also set the stage for the subsequent decision not to provide for fish passage at Chief Joseph Dam (built in 1953). Chinook, Steelhead, Sockeye and Coho salmon (as well as other important species including Lamprey) are now unable to spawn in the reaches of the Upper Columbia Basin. The extinction of the spawning grounds upstream from the dam has prevented the Spokane and other tribes from holding the first salmon ceremony.

Grand Coulee Dam flooded over 21,000 acres (85 km2) of prime bottom land where Native Americans had been living and hunting for thousands of years, forcing the relocation of settlements and graveyards. Kettle Falls, once a primary Native American fishing grounds, was inundated. The average catch of over 600,000 salmon per year was eliminated. In one study, the Army Corps of Engineers estimated the annual loss was over 1 million fish. In June 1941, Native Americans throughout the Northwest met at the Falls for the "Ceremony of Tears", marking the end of fishing there. One month later, the falls were inundated. The town of Kettle Falls, Washington, was relocated. The Columbia Basin Project has affected habitat ranges for species such as mule deer, pygmy rabbits and burrowing owls, resulting in decreased populations. However, it has created new habitats such as wetlands, and riparian corridors. The environmental impact of the dam effectively ended the traditional way of life of the native inhabitants. The government eventually compensated the Colville Indians in the 1990s with a lump settlement of approximately $53 million, plus annual payments of approximately $15 million. The Spokane tribe still seeks compensation, currently through congressional bill H.R. 3097.

Aren't you a fisherman?

[kalm]

Much better, and wise back peddle!

Educating kalm is a back peddle.

Yes! I LOVE how you and Z educated me on what an Oligarch is!

[kalm]

Now excuse while I tie up some flies under my magnifying lamp powered by cheap electricity from New Deal dam construction. I'm going to be chucking some streamers at Franklin Delano Roosevelt lake this week. It's a 140 mile reservoir beloved by all for it's recreational opportunities and was created by the Grand Coulee Dam. Along the way I'll pick up some fries at Edna's in Davenport. The spuds come as a result of the Columbia Basin Reclamation Project which turned a desert into one of the most productive ag areas in the world. I'll probably launch at Fort Sookane, a park built by the CCC as part of the WPA. I better watch out for the National Park Service Rangers though.... oops, wrong Roosevelt, they came courtesy of Teddy.

(Sure am glad we no longer benefit from FDR's policies )

You sure about 'dat?

The dam had severe negative consequences for the local Native American tribes whose traditional way of life revolved around salmon and the original shrub steppe habitat of the area. Because it lacks a fish ladder, Grand Coulee Dam permanently blocks fish migration, removing over 1,100 mi (1,770 km) of natural spawning habitat. By largely eliminating anadromous fish above the Okanogan River, the Grand Coulee Dam also set the stage for the subsequent decision not to provide for fish passage at Chief Joseph Dam (built in 1953). Chinook, Steelhead, Sockeye and Coho salmon (as well as other important species including Lamprey) are now unable to spawn in the reaches of the Upper Columbia Basin. The extinction of the spawning grounds upstream from the dam has prevented the Spokane and other tribes from holding the first salmon ceremony.

Grand Coulee Dam flooded over 21,000 acres (85 km2) of prime bottom land where Native Americans had been living and hunting for thousands of years, forcing the relocation of settlements and graveyards. Kettle Falls, once a primary Native American fishing grounds, was inundated. The average catch of over 600,000 salmon per year was eliminated. In one study, the Army Corps of Engineers estimated the annual loss was over 1 million fish. In June 1941, Native Americans throughout the Northwest met at the Falls for the "Ceremony of Tears", marking the end of fishing there. One month later, the falls were inundated. The town of Kettle Falls, Washington, was relocated. The Columbia Basin Project has affected habitat ranges for species such as mule deer, pygmy rabbits and burrowing owls, resulting in decreased populations. However, it has created new habitats such as wetlands, and riparian corridors. The environmental impact of the dam effectively ended the traditional way of life of the native inhabitants. The government eventually compensated the Colville Indians in the 1990s with a lump settlement of approximately $53 million, plus annual payments of approximately $15 million. The Spokane tribe still seeks compensation, currently through congressional bill H.R. 3097.

Aren't you a fisherman?

Yep. Posted an article in the fishing thread on retrofitting the dams for anadramous fish passage soon. They should have done it from the start. Progress has its downside too.

[Baldy]

Educating kalm is a back peddle.

Yes! I LOVE how you and Z educated me on what an Oligarch is!

Someone had to.