A Heritage of Hatred and White Supremecy

[BDKJMU]

Union states (at the time of the War Between the States)..

Baltimore and St. Louis were in slave states, so not really the North.

Reading is fundamental.

Spoiler: show

I said UNION states. Obviously B'more and St Louis wouldn't be included B'more & St Louis aren't in what were Union states. Nor were they in the Confederate States. They were in Border States..

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

Women shouldnt be on a $10 bill.........a $5 maybe, but not a ten.

[Ibanez]

Maryland was occupied. But Delaware wasn't and they had slaves. As did NJ and NY.

Slavery was outlawed completely in NY in 1827

Technically it was 1817.
That doesn't mean much. New Hampshire still had a few slaves even though it was banned 1857. Slaves in the Northern states were more house slaves, porters, etc... There weren't many but they were there. Hell, NJ banned slavery in 1804 but the 1850 census shows them. Like NY, it was abolished but they still existed until the slaves either died, were sold or emancipated themselves.

[dbackjon]

Slavery was outlawed completely in NY in 1827

Technically it was 1817.
That doesn't mean much. New Hampshire still had a few slaves even though it was banned 1857. Slaves in the Northern states were more house slaves, porters, etc... There weren't many but they were there. Hell, NJ banned slavery in 1804 but the 1850 census shows them. Like NY, it was abolished but they still existed until the slaves either died, were sold or emancipated themselves.

In NY, the original law prohibited slavery for all born after 1799, with emancipation for youth once they reached a certain age. In 1827 all slaves, even those born prior to 1799 were freed.

New Jersey's law was similar - banned new slaves but did not free existing slaves.


In both states (and other northern states) slave holders weren't too popular, and many were pressured into emancipating their one or two slaves.

[andy7171]

Union states (at the time of the War Between the States)..

Baltimore and St. Louis were in slave states, so not really the North.

Yeah. The Maryland story is quite interesting. Not told In schools either. Weird.

[andy7171]

Baltimore and St. Louis were in slave states, so not really the North.

Reading is fundamental.

Spoiler: show

I said UNION states. Obviously B'more and St Louis wouldn't be included B'more & St Louis aren't in what were Union states. Nor were they in the Confederate States. They were in Border States..

I wish I had access to the DUNCE icon.
Maryland was undebatablely a Union state. Occupied. 70% of the State legislature was illegally imprisoned. Slavery was not abolished under the emancipation proclamation. But definitely a Union state.

[dbackjon]

The Citadel Board of Visitors votes to remove Confederate Naval Jack from it's chapel

[Ibanez]

Technically it was 1817.
That doesn't mean much. New Hampshire still had a few slaves even though it was banned 1857. Slaves in the Northern states were more house slaves, porters, etc... There weren't many but they were there. Hell, NJ banned slavery in 1804 but the 1850 census shows them. Like NY, it was abolished but they still existed until the slaves either died, were sold or emancipated themselves.

In NY, the original law prohibited slavery for all born after 1799, with emancipation for youth once they reached a certain age. In 1827 all slaves, even those born prior to 1799 were freed.

New Jersey's law was similar - banned new slaves but did not free existing slaves.


In both states (and other northern states) slave holders weren't too popular, and many were pressured into emancipating their one or two slaves.

Why are you ignoring the 1817 law that gives you the 1827 date?

[JohnStOnge]

The Union was clearly in the wrong. You're talking about a nation established through seceding from the English Empire turning around and invading States exercising the same "right." And BTW the Union didn't do that to end slavery. It did that to force the Southern States to stay in the Union.

The Confederate Battle flag, for the greatest part, represents people who were fighting against a ruthless army invading their homeland. No doubt they were White Supremacists. But so were the overwhelming majority of the guys in the invading army.

BTW when i say "in the wrong" I'm talking about sitting here talking about what happened in the past. Like I would also say the whole United States was "in the wrong" with respect to the way the "Native Americans" were treated. It doesn't mean I'd change anything if I had a time machine and go back. But the North was clearly the aggressor that was in the wrong with respect to the American Civil War. It's just that in that case the aggressor won.

[CAA Flagship]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8D93Awa434[/youtube]

[kalm]

The Union was clearly in the wrong. You're talking about a nation established through seceding from the English Empire turning around and invading States exercising the same "right." And BTW the Union didn't do that to end slavery. It did that to force the Southern States to stay in the Union.

The Confederate Battle flag, for the greatest part, represents people who were fighting against a ruthless army invading their homeland. No doubt they were White Supremacists. But so were the overwhelming majority of the guys in the invading army.

BTW when i say "in the wrong" I'm talking about sitting here talking about what happened in the past. Like I would also say the whole United States was "in the wrong" with respect to the way the "Native Americans" were treated. It doesn't mean I'd change anything if I had a time machine and go back. But the North was clearly the aggressor that was in the wrong with respect to the American Civil War. It's just that in that case the aggressor won.

Why in god's green earth wouldn't you change anything?

(Sensing a set up but too curious to care)

[BDKJMU]

Reading is fundamental.

Spoiler: show

I said UNION states. Obviously B'more and St Louis wouldn't be included B'more & St Louis aren't in what were Union states. Nor were they in the Confederate States. They were in Border States..

I wish I had access to the DUNCE icon.
Maryland was undebatablely a Union state. Occupied. 70% of the State legislature was illegally imprisoned. Slavery was not abolished under the emancipation proclamation. But definitely a Union state.

MD was not a Union state, nor Confederate, accoring to NPS. Take it up with them.

http://www.nps.gov/civilwar/facts.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BDKJMU]

The Battle Flag was never the official flag of the Confederacy. The 1st offical flag was the 1st National (Stars and Bars).

If SC simply replaced the Battle Flag with the Stars and Bars, it would be more appropriate and it would be mostly the end of the controversy, as most people now wouldn't even recognize that as a Confederate flag..

[D1B]

The terrorist attack in Charleston has once again brought up the debate over the meaning of the battle flag, and the reasons for the Civil War.

We get the same tired but false arguments that the war was not about slavery, that the Confederacy was a noble cause, that the flag only honors our heritage, etc.

This is all a white-washed lie. The reason for secession was to continue the institution of slavery. No other reason. If you don't believe me, please read the words of the Confederates:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... er/396482/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Here you will find the secession articles from many states, which clearly demonstrate that for SC, and other deep south states, slavery WAS the reason.

God. How many times must we re-hash this conversation? The South seceded b/c of slavery. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't understand history. However, Southern men weren't fighting to maintain slaves they didn't have. Slave-owners made up a small, small portion of the population but they had the most influence. And how do you get your population to fight? Give them an ideology (Your rights, not slavery. Freedom not oil.) State's Rights (which was slavery) was the way. 'Fight for your rights to stay free. If the Union can take away slavery, they can take other things away.'

And while we're on the subject. The Union fought to keep those states b/c Slavery was vital to the Northern industries. You notice that slaves weren't freed in the North or other Union controlled areas and that the Emancipation Proclamation didn't free a single slave the the Union had controlled over. Read news articles from that period (domestic and international) and you'll see a lot of criticism.

The South shouldn't have seceded. A confederacy is a bad, difficult and oppressive form of government.

One of the problems with these hicks is that 1) They don't understand the history and 2) Don't realize that living in the CSA afforded them less freedoms than living in the Union.


I will say this, if we're going to ban/remove/disgrace symbols and objects that were used to oppress people and used for violence then the American flag and the Holy Bible should be next. But that isn't the point.

Strong post.

[OL FU]

Have you been paying attention. Have you watched the news. We have a long way to go. We have a flag that let's everyone blame us. The north has riots .

Define "north".

Not west or south

[houndawg]

The south certainly seceded because of fear that their peculiar institution would be lost. Once done, the south fought the war to become independent. The north didn't fight the war to free the slaves until it became a politically expedient position to take.

Life is complicated. you should know that.

On the other hand, it really doesn't make a damn. We all like to blab and blab and blab and mostly just poke each other in the eye. We are good folks.

Facts are stubborn things. The Union didn't make slavery an issue until 1863. Funny how that piece gets forgotten. The Union was fighting to maintain the status quo. Cheap materials in the south going to the industrialized North. The North benefited greatly from Slavery and they weren't about to lose that benefit. It can be argued that the North fought just as hard to maintain slavery.

By "the North", I assume you're referring to the factory owners and not their "employees"?

[Ibanez]

The Battle Flag was never the official flag of the Confederacy. The 1st offical flag was the 1st National (Stars and Bars).

If SC simply replaced the Battle Flag with the Stars and Bars, it would be more appropriate and it would be mostly the end of the controversy, as most people now wouldn't even recognize that as a Confederate flag..

1) Thanks for posting the State Flag of Georgia...basically.
2) I can't think of a worst idea. Let's replace a battle flag with an official flag of the Confederacy.

[Ibanez]

Facts are stubborn things. The Union didn't make slavery an issue until 1863. Funny how that piece gets forgotten. The Union was fighting to maintain the status quo. Cheap materials in the south going to the industrialized North. The North benefited greatly from Slavery and they weren't about to lose that benefit. It can be argued that the North fought just as hard to maintain slavery.

By "the North", I assume you're referring to the factory owners and not their "employees"?

Anyone that provided the raw materials from the South. That would include the shop owners who sold to industry workers.

Also, by South, I assume people are referring to the less than 5% of the entire US population that actually owned slaves.

[Ibanez]

Reading is fundamental.

Spoiler: show

I said UNION states. Obviously B'more and St Louis wouldn't be included B'more & St Louis aren't in what were Union states. Nor were they in the Confederate States. They were in Border States..

I wish I had access to the DUNCE icon.
Maryland was undebatablely a Union state. Occupied. 70% of the State legislature was illegally imprisoned. Slavery was not abolished under the emancipation proclamation. But definitely a Union state.

Technically, you're wrong. Maryland was occupied by the North and was a border state. Delaware is another Border state. The only reason they weren't in the CSA was b/c Lincoln occupied the state so that D.C. wasn't surrounded.

People have got to STOP thinking that the Emancipation Proclamation was a law. It wasn't. It freed slaves where the Union had no control and kept slavery intact where it did (Maryland, Delaware, etc..)

[Ibanez]

God. How many times must we re-hash this conversation? The South seceded b/c of slavery. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't understand history. However, Southern men weren't fighting to maintain slaves they didn't have. Slave-owners made up a small, small portion of the population but they had the most influence. And how do you get your population to fight? Give them an ideology (Your rights, not slavery. Freedom not oil.) State's Rights (which was slavery) was the way. 'Fight for your rights to stay free. If the Union can take away slavery, they can take other things away.'

And while we're on the subject. The Union fought to keep those states b/c Slavery was vital to the Northern industries. You notice that slaves weren't freed in the North or other Union controlled areas and that the Emancipation Proclamation didn't free a single slave the the Union had controlled over. Read news articles from that period (domestic and international) and you'll see a lot of criticism.

The South shouldn't have seceded. A confederacy is a bad, difficult and oppressive form of government.

One of the problems with these hicks is that 1) They don't understand the history and 2) Don't realize that living in the CSA afforded them less freedoms than living in the Union.


I will say this, if we're going to ban/remove/disgrace symbols and objects that were used to oppress people and used for violence then the American flag and the Holy Bible should be next. But that isn't the point.

Strong post.

Thanks. Mr. Banana's did most of my research.

[Ibanez]

Since we're being so reactive, do we have to change the names of the following military installations:

Fort Bragg
Fort Rucker
Fort Hood
Fort Lee
Fort Benning
Fort Gordon
Fort A.P. Hill
Fort Polk
Fort Pickett
Camp Beauregard

[OL FU]

And here is my response, so so

IF you are looking for someone to argue that the results of the war weren't for the best, you won't find it with me.

IF you are looking for someone to argue that the south's treatment of blacks for nearly 100 years after the war was the right thing, you won't find it with me. OF course, the north wasn't much better just smart enough not to legislate it.

If you think I think the south was right to secede, then you are wrong.

My point is simply the point made in that article and by my buddy dback is mostly bullshit.

Nothing bullshit about it, FU.

The problem with those quotes is you can find them both ways. While certainly the South seceded because of slavery, a lot of confederate soldiers fought for other reasons. John S Mosby, Confederate officer, slavery opponent.

"The South went to war on account of Slavery. South Carolina went to war – as she said in her Secession proclamation – because slavery wd. not be secure under Lincoln. South Carolina ought to know what was the cause for her seceding. . . . I am not ashamed of having fought on the side of slavery – a soldier fights for his country – right or wrong – he is not responsible for the political merits of the cause he fights in. The South was my country."

My point was more to the South today. Certainly the flag should come down. Waving it in the face of our black citizens is horrendous. But the majority of people who support the flag don't do so because it offends blacks. Whether they have a lack of understanding or are just too damn stubborn, I will leave to others to decide. But South Carolina today is not the South Carolina of even 30 or 40 years ago.

I hope the flag is removed. I wish the compromise 15 years ago had removed it. One less stupid thing to argue about so people can focus on substance.

[CID1990]

Since we're being so reactive, do we have to change the names of the following military installations:

Fort Bragg
Fort Rucker
Fort Hood
Fort Lee
Fort Benning
Fort Gordon
Fort A.P. Hill
Fort Polk
Fort Pickett
Camp Beauregard

You can bet this is going to happen.

Ironically:

Confederate soldiers are officially American Veterans by Act of Congress. By order of Public Law 85-425, May 23, 1958 (H.R. 358) 72 Statute 133 states – “(3) (e) for the purpose of this section, and section 433, the term ‘veteran’ includes a person who served in the military or naval forces of the Confederate States of America during the Civil War, and the term ‘active, military or naval service’ includes active service in such forces.”

[AZGrizFan]

You can also bet that very soon the celebration of and or reenactment of Civil War battles is going to cease....

There's a high school in San Antonio named after Robert E. Lee. Won't last long now...

[Ibanez]

You can also bet that very soon the celebration of and or reenactment of Civil War battles is going to cease....

There's a high school in San Antonio named after Robert E. Lee. Won't last long now...

Ole Miss will have to get a new mascot.

Billy Idol's "Rebel Yell" will be banned.

Johnny will no longer be an acceptable name due to the nickname, "Johnny Reb."

Grey is now an illegal color.