ASUMountaineer wrote:At least Gary Johnson offered a different vision. Why do Republicans despise conservatives?
The key part there is "different vision." I probably should have been clearer. The implication there was that Romney and Obama offered a very similar vision, which is essentially the status quo. Gary Johnson, even with no shot of winning, offered a different vision that is actually a conservative vision--unlike Romney and Obama. I thought, given the rest of my post, it was clear that I was drawing a distinction between Johnson and Romney/Obama.
Damn, if I had realized that that was where you were hung up we could have nipped this in the bud a while ago.
Appalachian State Mountaineers:
National Champions: 2005, 2006, and 2007 Southern Conference Champions: 1986, 1987, 1991, 1995, 1999, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2012
NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! WE'RE GONNA SHOUT IT! NOTHING'S HOTTER THAN A-S-U!
ASUMountaineer wrote:I don't see why that's a bad thing. It's more important for me to vote on principle than to vote for the winner.
Who said anything about voting for the winner? I said voting for somebody who has a chance of winning.
If I thought Gary Johnson had a shot at an important threshold that either guaranteed a spot in debates for a third party, or that they'd be on the ballot in every state next election... I can absolutely see that as a vote not wasted.
Going in to this election we knew that GJ would not get even close to 2%.
Your posts seemed to say that winning is more important than principle. Perhaps I misunderstood the implication.
Just because GJ couldn't win, or meet an important threshold, was not enough to force me to cast my vote against my principle. I'm sure some people could do that, but I just couldn't.
Appalachian State Mountaineers:
National Champions: 2005, 2006, and 2007 Southern Conference Champions: 1986, 1987, 1991, 1995, 1999, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2012
NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! WE'RE GONNA SHOUT IT! NOTHING'S HOTTER THAN A-S-U!
ASUMountaineer wrote:Your posts seemed to say that winning is more important than principle. Perhaps I misunderstood the implication.
Pretty close, as long as you understand that your principled vote fell on deaf ears. The two party system has a lock on things. Again, if I actually thought a vote for GJ would send ANY kind of message, I wouldn't call it wasted.
ASUMountaineer wrote:
Do you think we'll get change in his second term? I'm hoping so because the status quo sucks.
Aha. That's the reason why you feel the way you do on the Johnson vote. Your fall back is that you have hope there will be change. I am assuming that there will not be change. I think 89 probably feels the same way. A vote for Obama's closest challenger is a vote against Obama. A vote for a distant challenger is a non vote in this case.
BTW, this is evidence of why I didn't vote for GJ... my results from the isidewith.com poll...
Mitt Romney - 85%
Ron Paul - 78%
Gary Johnson - 77%
Virgil Goode - 75%
Jimmy McMillan - 61%
Jill Stein - 59%
Barack Obama - 57%
Stewart Alexander - 41%
ASUMountaineer wrote:Your posts seemed to say that winning is more important than principle. Perhaps I misunderstood the implication.
Pretty close, as long as you understand that your principled vote fell on deaf ears. The two party system has a lock on things. Again, if I actually thought a vote for GJ would send ANY kind of message, I wouldn't call it wasted.
I still haven't seen a valid reason to call a vote on principle wasted. I will gladly have my vote "fall on deaf ears" if it means I voted my conscience. In the end, that's what's important to me. I don't need my vote to go to the almost winner to feel like I mattered.
Appalachian State Mountaineers:
National Champions: 2005, 2006, and 2007 Southern Conference Champions: 1986, 1987, 1991, 1995, 1999, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2012
NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! WE'RE GONNA SHOUT IT! NOTHING'S HOTTER THAN A-S-U!
ASUMountaineer wrote:
Do you think we'll get change in his second term? I'm hoping so because the status quo sucks.
Aha. That's the reason why you feel the way you do on the Johnson vote. Your fall back is that you have hope there will be change. I am assuming that there will not be change. I think 89 probably feels the same way. A vote for Obama's closest challenger is a vote against Obama. A vote for a distant challenger is a non vote in this case.
Not if there's no tangible difference between Obama and his closest challenger. Both are self-described and proven "progressives." Next.
Appalachian State Mountaineers:
National Champions: 2005, 2006, and 2007 Southern Conference Champions: 1986, 1987, 1991, 1995, 1999, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2012
NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! WE'RE GONNA SHOUT IT! NOTHING'S HOTTER THAN A-S-U!
89Hen wrote:BTW, this is evidence of why I didn't vote for GJ... my results from the isidewith.com poll...
Mitt Romney - 85%
Ron Paul - 78%
Gary Johnson - 77%
Virgil Goode - 75%
Jimmy McMillan - 61%
Jill Stein - 59%
Barack Obama - 57%
Stewart Alexander - 41%
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. This is evidence as to why I did vote for GJ...my results from the isidewith.com poll...
Appalachian State Mountaineers:
National Champions: 2005, 2006, and 2007 Southern Conference Champions: 1986, 1987, 1991, 1995, 1999, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2012
NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! WE'RE GONNA SHOUT IT! NOTHING'S HOTTER THAN A-S-U!
89Hen wrote:
Pretty close, as long as you understand that your principled vote fell on deaf ears. The two party system has a lock on things. Again, if I actually thought a vote for GJ would send ANY kind of message, I wouldn't call it wasted.
I still haven't seen a valid reason to call a vote on principle wasted. I will gladly have my vote "fall on deaf ears" if it means I voted my conscience. In the end, that's what's important to me. I don't need my vote to go to the almost winner to feel like I mattered.
I've said a couple times now, if it made you feel better, than it's not wasted to you.
ASUMountaineer wrote:
I still haven't seen a valid reason to call a vote on principle wasted. I will gladly have my vote "fall on deaf ears" if it means I voted my conscience. In the end, that's what's important to me. I don't need my vote to go to the almost winner to feel like I mattered.
I've said a couple times now, if it made you feel better, than it's not wasted to you.
Appalachian State Mountaineers:
National Champions: 2005, 2006, and 2007 Southern Conference Champions: 1986, 1987, 1991, 1995, 1999, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2012
NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! WE'RE GONNA SHOUT IT! NOTHING'S HOTTER THAN A-S-U!
I've got to get home. I picked up a cold from Jr and feel like shit. Probably why I'm ornery. I will leave you with this, which sums up why I was under the impression that you really think R's wouldn't have voted for him if he were the nominee...
ASUMountaineer wrote:The reason Republicans didn't vote for him is because clearly the Republican Party is dishonest when it says it supports personal freedom, smaller government, and fiscal responsibility.
I think they didn't vote for him because he was not in the Republican primaries, wasn't running as an R, and wasn't a viable option. Had R's voted in large chunks for GJ as an L would have just made the Obama win bigger. Something someone from neither party wants (to lose big). To say they didn't vote for him because they hate conservatism is folly.
If you want to have a conversation as to why many R's don't think a truly conservative candiate can win, we can have that one.
89Hen wrote:I've got to get home. I picked up a cold from Jr and feel like ****. Probably why I'm ornery. I will leave you with this, which sums up why I was under the impression that you really think R's wouldn't have voted for him if he were the nominee...
ASUMountaineer wrote:The reason Republicans didn't vote for him is because clearly the Republican Party is dishonest when it says it supports personal freedom, smaller government, and fiscal responsibility.
I think they didn't vote for him because he was not in the Republican primaries, wasn't running as an R, and wasn't a viable option. Had R's voted in large chunks for GJ as an L would have just made the Obama win bigger. Something someone from neither party wants (to lose big). To say they didn't vote for him because they hate conservatism is folly.
If you want to have a conversation as to why many R's don't think a truly conservative candiate can win, we can have that one.
Clearly we disagree, and that's fine. I probably should have qualified my statement with the word "wouldn't" instead of "didn't" because you're right that he did drop out of the R primaries. Needless to say, there was a similar R candidate to GJ in Ron Paul, and we saw what Republicans thought of him. If Santorum, Gingrich, Romney, and Perry are the leaders in the primaries then it's clear what Republicans think of true conservatism.
Thanks for the discussion, it killed time at work. I hope you get feeling better.
Appalachian State Mountaineers:
National Champions: 2005, 2006, and 2007 Southern Conference Champions: 1986, 1987, 1991, 1995, 1999, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2012
NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! WE'RE GONNA SHOUT IT! NOTHING'S HOTTER THAN A-S-U!
Cap'n Cat wrote:All in all, not a bad day for sociliast niqqers.
My thoughts exactly.
Dear lord... please allow this dangerous combination of hair spary, bat slobber, and D.O.T. four automatic transmission fluid to excite my mind, occupy my spirits, and enrage my body, provoking me to kick any man or woman in the back of the head regardless of what he or she has or has not done unto me. All my Best, Earlie Cuyler.
ASUMountaineer wrote:I don't see why that's a bad thing. It's more important for me to vote on principle than to vote for the winner.
Who said anything about voting for the winner? I said voting for somebody who has a chance of winning.
If I thought Gary Johnson had a shot at an important threshold that either guaranteed a spot in debates for a third party, or that they'd be on the ballot in every state next election... I can absolutely see that as a vote not wasted.
Going in to this election we knew that GJ would not get even close to 2%.
But if people don't vote for him simply because they don't think he'll reach 5% or some other threshold then he'll never get the votes and never reach the threshold. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. I had serious reservations about both Obama and Romney and didn't really want to see either elected. Johnson was the right choice for me and I would have made it whether I lived in a "safe" state or a "battleground" state.
My mistake was not quietly campaigning for Johnson. Look at the % of people on CS who ended up supporting Johnson. People are sick and tired of the status quo and looking for alternatives. Johnson offers a viable alternative that is in line with a lot of people's thinking. Unfortunately, they don't know anything about him. I need to help get the word out so that we either develop a viable 3rd party or (more likely) the existing parties adjust their positions to keep the 3rd party from gaining traction.
But nothing will change if we don't express our dissatisfaction in the voting booth.
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm
MAQA - putting the Q into qrazy qanon qult qonspiracy theories since 2015.
It will probably be difficult for MAQA yahoos to overcome the Qult programming but they should give being rational & reasonable a try.
Thank you for your attention to this matter - UNI88
89Hen wrote:
Who said anything about voting for the winner? I said voting for somebody who has a chance of winning.
If I thought Gary Johnson had a shot at an important threshold that either guaranteed a spot in debates for a third party, or that they'd be on the ballot in every state next election... I can absolutely see that as a vote not wasted.
Going in to this election we knew that GJ would not get even close to 2%.
But if people don't vote for him simply because they don't think he'll reach 5% or some other threshold then he'll never get the votes and never reach the threshold. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. I had serious reservations about both Obama and Romney and didn't really want to see either elected. Johnson was the right choice for me and I would have made it whether I lived in a "safe" state or a "battleground" state.
My mistake was not quietly campaigning for Johnson. Look at the % of people on CS who ended up supporting Johnson. People are sick and tired of the status quo and looking for alternatives. Johnson offers a viable alternative that is in line with a lot of people's thinking. Unfortunately, they don't know anything about him. I need to help get the word out so that we either develop a viable 3rd party or (more likely) the existing parties adjust their positions to keep the 3rd party from gaining traction.
But nothing will change if we don't express our dissatisfaction in the voting booth.
OK. If you do not see any difference in the R and D candidates, and you dislike them both, then voting for GJ is not a wasted vote.
I assumed ASUM was more hell bent on getting Obama out of office and was shooting for the stars by trying to get his ideal candidate in. Those two things could not happen in this case.
UNI88 wrote:
But if people don't vote for him simply because they don't think he'll reach 5% or some other threshold then he'll never get the votes and never reach the threshold. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. I had serious reservations about both Obama and Romney and didn't really want to see either elected. Johnson was the right choice for me and I would have made it whether I lived in a "safe" state or a "battleground" state.
My mistake was not quietly campaigning for Johnson. Look at the % of people on CS who ended up supporting Johnson. People are sick and tired of the status quo and looking for alternatives. Johnson offers a viable alternative that is in line with a lot of people's thinking. Unfortunately, they don't know anything about him. I need to help get the word out so that we either develop a viable 3rd party or (more likely) the existing parties adjust their positions to keep the 3rd party from gaining traction.
But nothing will change if we don't express our dissatisfaction in the voting booth.
OK. If you do not see any difference in the R and D candidates, and you dislike them both, then voting for GJ is not a wasted vote. I assumed ASUM was more hell bent on getting Obama out of office and was shooting for the stars by trying to get his ideal candidate in. Those two things could not happen in this case.
You couldn't be further from the truth with your assumption.
What you wrote above (that I put in red) not only described my situation, but is what I've been saying on here for years--though my political stances do align with GJ more than any other candidate.
I had this exact same argument in 2008 with my support of Ron Paul over McCain and Obama--or, as I affectionately referred to them as "McBama." Corny, I know...but, it sure as hell pissed off AZ!
Appalachian State Mountaineers:
National Champions: 2005, 2006, and 2007 Southern Conference Champions: 1986, 1987, 1991, 1995, 1999, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2012
NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! WE'RE GONNA SHOUT IT! NOTHING'S HOTTER THAN A-S-U!
CAA Flagship wrote:
OK. If you do not see any difference in the R and D candidates, and you dislike them both, then voting for GJ is not a wasted vote. I assumed ASUM was more hell bent on getting Obama out of office and was shooting for the stars by trying to get his ideal candidate in. Those two things could not happen in this case.
You couldn't be further from the truth with your assumption.
What you wrote above (that I put in red) not only described my situation, but is what I've been saying on here for years--though my political stances do align with GJ more than any other candidate.
I had this exact same argument in 2008 with my support of Ron Paul over McCain and Obama--or, as I affectionately referred to them as "McBama." Corny, I know...but, it sure as hell pissed off AZ!
I prefer to choose the lesser of the two evils that have a shot at the Presidency rather than dismissing both. But hey, your vote is a heck of a lot better than no vote at all like that 93henfan communist guy.
