OK, who ordered the double dip??

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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by kalm »

GannonFan wrote:
kalm wrote:
I was only partly speaking to Gannon there. If you were a fisherman in Alaska, Exxon is most certainly a victimizer. And considering the size of our military and infrastructure, a big government cannot be helped.
But he's right though, I never said that Exxon was suffering under the yoke of an oppressive government. I was only responding to the idea in the thread, and even from you, that Exxon makes too much money. I don't have any problem with the amount of money they make - their profit margins are pretty slim compared to almost any industry out there. Problem is, you can't set up a worldwide business extracting oil from so many different areas and managing that supply chain withouth also putting up massive amounts of money - and really, they get pretty much the same kinds of subsidies that other businesses get - again, it just looks like they get more if you ignore the scale of operation. So the only "yoke" that Big Oil could be suffering under, if you want to use that phrase, could be the threat for government and other interest groups that decide that $10B is too much profit, regardless of what profit margin that represents, and that they should share that wealth.
The yoke comment was hyperbole to counterbalance some earlier comments pining about intrusive government etc, that were not yours. Exxon will make as much as they can like any corporation, which is fine. But subsidies and tax breaks - in essence your tax dollars supporting them - should certainly make them open to our scrutiny. And yes, every industry seeks the same advantages from government.

Discussions like these are what make libertarianism more and more attractive. :?
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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by houndawg »

GannonFan wrote:
kalm wrote:
I was only partly speaking to Gannon there. If you were a fisherman in Alaska, Exxon is most certainly a victimizer. And considering the size of our military and infrastructure, a big government cannot be helped.
But he's right though, I never said that Exxon was suffering under the yoke of an oppressive government. I was only responding to the idea in the thread, and even from you, that Exxon makes too much money. I don't have any problem with the amount of money they make - their profit margins are pretty slim compared to almost any industry out there. Problem is, you can't set up a worldwide business extracting oil from so many different areas and managing that supply chain withouth also putting up massive amounts of money - and really, they get pretty much the same kinds of subsidies that other businesses get - again, it just looks like they get more if you ignore the scale of operation. So the only "yoke" that Big Oil could be suffering under, if you want to use that phrase, could be the threat for government and other interest groups that decide that $10B is too much profit, regardless of what profit margin that represents, and that they should share that wealth.
Oil is strategically vital to the US and should be nationalized.
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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by Col Hogan »

kalm wrote:...considering the size of our military and infrastructure, a big government cannot be helped.
Honest question...not trying to trap you in anything...

But what size do you think the military should be...

Now, don't tell me "get out of (insert name of country here)...because all that does is bring the forces home...

What are you willing to pay for in defense...what are you willing to sacrifice in the defense budget...

Just wondering...
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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by houndawg »

Col Hogan wrote:
kalm wrote:...considering the size of our military and infrastructure, a big government cannot be helped.
Honest question...not trying to trap you in anything...

But what size do you think the military should be...

Now, don't tell me "get out of (insert name of country here)...because all that does is bring the forces home...

What are you willing to pay for in defense...what are you willing to sacrifice in the defense budget...

Just wondering...
I'd be willing to sacrifice half of the 700+ bases we have outside the US in 100+ countries and cut manpower to a million. That should be more than enough of a standing Army, that our founders didn't want, to defend our borders.
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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by BDKJMU »

kalm wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
But he's right though, I never said that Exxon was suffering under the yoke of an oppressive government. I was only responding to the idea in the thread, and even from you, that Exxon makes too much money. I don't have any problem with the amount of money they make - their profit margins are pretty slim compared to almost any industry out there. Problem is, you can't set up a worldwide business extracting oil from so many different areas and managing that supply chain withouth also putting up massive amounts of money - and really, they get pretty much the same kinds of subsidies that other businesses get - again, it just looks like they get more if you ignore the scale of operation. So the only "yoke" that Big Oil could be suffering under, if you want to use that phrase, could be the threat for government and other interest groups that decide that $10B is too much profit, regardless of what profit margin that represents, and that they should share that wealth.
The yoke comment was hyperbole to counterbalance some earlier comments pining about intrusive government etc, that were not yours. Exxon will make as much as they can like any corporation, which is fine. But subsidies and tax breaks - in essence your tax dollars supporting them - should certainly make them open to our scrutiny. And yes, every industry seeks the same advantages from government.

Discussions like these are what make libertarianism more and more attractive. :?
BS. A tax break isn't a govt expense. A tax break or subsidy isn't the govt paying $ to a company. It simply means the govt takes less in exchange for something.

If the govt takes less $ from company x, that doesn't mean your taking dollars are being given to company x. :roll:
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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by BDKJMU »

houndawg wrote:
GannonFan wrote:
But he's right though, I never said that Exxon was suffering under the yoke of an oppressive government. I was only responding to the idea in the thread, and even from you, that Exxon makes too much money. I don't have any problem with the amount of money they make - their profit margins are pretty slim compared to almost any industry out there. Problem is, you can't set up a worldwide business extracting oil from so many different areas and managing that supply chain withouth also putting up massive amounts of money - and really, they get pretty much the same kinds of subsidies that other businesses get - again, it just looks like they get more if you ignore the scale of operation. So the only "yoke" that Big Oil could be suffering under, if you want to use that phrase, could be the threat for government and other interest groups that decide that $10B is too much profit, regardless of what profit margin that represents, and that they should share that wealth.
Oil is strategically vital to the US and should be nationalized.
Ok Hugo Chavez, that would make the oil & natural gas industry really efficient. :roll: Less oil at a higher cost, leaving us to import even more. Are you serious, or are you really that dumb?
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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by kalm »

Col Hogan wrote:
kalm wrote:...considering the size of our military and infrastructure, a big government cannot be helped.
Honest question...not trying to trap you in anything...

But what size do you think the military should be...

Now, don't tell me "get out of (insert name of country here)...because all that does is bring the forces home...

What are you willing to pay for in defense...what are you willing to sacrifice in the defense budget...

Just wondering...
The short answer is whatever size we are willing to pay for through taxation.
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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by houndawg »

BDKJMU wrote:
houndawg wrote:
Oil is strategically vital to the US and should be nationalized.
Ok Hugo Chavez, that would make the oil & natural gas industry really efficient. :roll: Less oil at a higher cost, leaving us to import even more. Are you serious, or are you really that dumb?
:lol:


:jack:
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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by Col Hogan »

kalm wrote:
Col Hogan wrote:
Honest question...not trying to trap you in anything...

But what size do you think the military should be...

Now, don't tell me "get out of (insert name of country here)...because all that does is bring the forces home...

What are you willing to pay for in defense...what are you willing to sacrifice in the defense budget...

Just wondering...
The short answer is whatever size we are willing to pay for through taxation.
Philosophically we agree...

Where we will digress, I expect, is that defense...the military...is clearly stated as one of the Federal government's prime responsibility...

Health care...education...are not...

Social Security is not...

Medicare & medicaid is not...

So, do we cut a Constitution-mandated responsibility to pay for something not mentioned in the Constitution ANYWHERE???


(EDIT) I AM NOT ARGUING TO KEEP DEFENSE ALONE...IT NEEDS TO BE CUT!!!
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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by houndawg »

Col Hogan wrote:
kalm wrote:
The short answer is whatever size we are willing to pay for through taxation.
Philosophically we agree...

Where we will digress, I expect, is that defense...the military...is clearly stated as one of the Federal government's prime responsibility...

Health care...education...are not...

Social Security is not...

Medicare & medicaid is not...

So, do we cut a Constitution-mandated responsibility to pay for something not mentioned in the Constitution ANYWHERE???


(EDIT) I AM NOT ARGUING TO KEEP DEFENSE ALONE...IT NEEDS TO BE CUT!!!
Seems obvious that the cuts must be across the board.
You matter. Unless you multiply yourself by c squared. Then you energy.


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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by Col Hogan »

houndawg wrote:
Col Hogan wrote:
Philosophically we agree...

Where we will digress, I expect, is that defense...the military...is clearly stated as one of the Federal government's prime responsibility...

Health care...education...are not...

Social Security is not...

Medicare & medicaid is not...

So, do we cut a Constitution-mandated responsibility to pay for something not mentioned in the Constitution ANYWHERE???


(EDIT) I AM NOT ARGUING TO KEEP DEFENSE ALONE...IT NEEDS TO BE CUT!!!
Seems obvious that the cuts must be across the board.
Why???
“Tolerance and Apathy are the last virtues of a dying society.” Aristotle

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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by houndawg »

Col Hogan wrote:
houndawg wrote:
Seems obvious that the cuts must be across the board.
Why???

So everybody has skin in the game.
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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by Col Hogan »

houndawg wrote:
Col Hogan wrote:
Why???

So everybody has skin in the game.
OK...defense has $350B in cuts coming...is that enough skin in the game???
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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by houndawg »

Col Hogan wrote:
houndawg wrote:

So everybody has skin in the game.
OK...defense has $350B in cuts coming...is that enough skin in the game???
I think so, if they cut stuff that includes what the Pentagon doesn't want. I blame Congressmen for that, not Generals.
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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by OSBF »

cut all the VA hospitals and corresponding staff.

Not sure if that comes out of DOD or not.
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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by Col Hogan »

Veterans Administration

Sure...cut that...

SMFH...
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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by AZGrizFan »

Dow now below 11,000.
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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by OSBF »

Col Hogan wrote:Veterans Administration

Sure...cut that...

SMFH...
no body wants socialized medicine

not the govt's responsibility to provide health care

we can't be a nanny state nuzzled up to the govt teat for our healthcare

right?
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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by AZGrizFan »

OSBF wrote:
Col Hogan wrote:Veterans Administration

Sure...cut that...

SMFH...
no body wants socialized medicine

not the govt's responsibility to provide health care

we can't be a nanny state nuzzled up to the govt teat for our healthcare

right?
"Provide for the common defense..."....perhaps you've heard of this thing called The Constitution?

And no, it's not an old, wooden ship.
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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by OSBF »

AZGrizFan wrote:
OSBF wrote:
no body wants socialized medicine

not the govt's responsibility to provide health care

we can't be a nanny state nuzzled up to the govt teat for our healthcare

right?
"Provide for the common defense..."....perhaps you've heard of this thing called The Constitution?

And no, it's not an old, wooden ship.
SO.....................

"socialized" medicine is OK provided the DOD pays for it, but not OK when the Dept of Health and Human Services pays for it?

We have a responsibility and a duty to provide for absolutely any and all health care needed by active duty personnel.

Once they muster out, they be just ordinary civilians again. The Tax payer has paid them for their services while on active duty, we do not owe them free "socialized" medicine for the rest of their life.

The govt fucks up everything it touches anyway, why would a soldier trust the govt paid docs in a communist VA clinic to know anything about anything.
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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by 89Hen »

OSBF wrote:"socialized" medicine is OK provided the DOD pays for it, but not OK when the Dept of Health and Human Services pays for it?

We have a responsibility and a duty to provide for absolutely any and all health care needed by active duty personnel.

Once they muster out, they be just ordinary civilians again. The Tax payer has paid them for their services while on active duty, we do not owe them free "socialized" medicine for the rest of their life.

The govt fucks up everything it touches anyway, why would a soldier trust the govt paid docs in a communist VA clinic to know anything about anything.
You are suck a fucking jackass. :dunce:
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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by HI54UNI »

OSBF wrote:cut all the VA hospitals and corresponding staff.

Not sure if that comes out of DOD or not.

USDA and NRCS should be cut first.
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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by AZGrizFan »

89Hen wrote:
OSBF wrote:"socialized" medicine is OK provided the DOD pays for it, but not OK when the Dept of Health and Human Services pays for it?

We have a responsibility and a duty to provide for absolutely any and all health care needed by active duty personnel.

Once they muster out, they be just ordinary civilians again. The Tax payer has paid them for their services while on active duty, we do not owe them free "socialized" medicine for the rest of their life.

The govt fucks up everything it touches anyway, why would a soldier trust the govt paid docs in a communist VA clinic to know anything about anything.
You are suck a fucking jackass. :dunce:
Almost to the point of not worthy of a response, but I'll give him one anyway.

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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by OSBF »

If we're gonna pay for VA bennies we gots to pay for Medicare too.

Essentially the same thing, the govt being responsible for peoples health care.

If you take issue with Medicare from the smaller govt position, it isn't the govt's job to be in the health care biz, you have to take the same position with the VA.

Except for the lower sunk costs with Medicare as Medicare doesn't actually employ the doctors and support staff providing the care, or own/maintain the facilities.
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Re: OK, who ordered the double dip??

Post by Col Hogan »

If you're asking about the general population...I agree...

But since veterans EARNED it...

Earn something and I'll support it...if you want it and did nothing to earn it...screw you...
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