THE RELIGION THREAD

[Wedgebuster]

[Wedgebuster]

[Wedgebuster]

[Wedgebuster]

[Wedgebuster]

[SeattleGriz]

Perfect timing for this thread.

Was listening to a discussion with Christopher Hitchins and Dinesh D'Souza where they discussed the various aspects of religion vs atheism. One of the questions was why atheists appear to be much more angry and derisive than believers when dealing with those at the other end of their belief system.

Essentially, those who believe in God know they cannot prove His existence, so they understand where a non believer is coming from. No proof, no God. But an atheist, who believes there is no God has a tough time understanding how someone who believes in God can believe in something they cannot prove. How can one believe in something that isn't there?

One can see why it is so exasperating for atheists. Always having to deal with someone who believes there is something out of nothing.

By the way, I don't understand Hitchens style. He was a complete turd to almost every caller. While I can understand his frustration, as discussed above, I often have to think of a saying my mother uses. "You can attract more flies with honey than vinegar".

[dbackjon]

Interesting perspective.

To be fair, I have run into many angry Christians - who can not believe that everyone does not believe all the proof THEY think exists that shows God is real/Jesus was real and the Son of God.

[SeattleGriz]

Interesting perspective.

To be fair, I have run into many angry Christians - who can not believe that everyone does not believe all the proof THEY think exists that shows God is real/Jesus was real and the Son of God.

Me too. I often say the worst thing for Christianity are Christians themselves.

On another note, one of the funniest lines I have ever heard on the Simpsons was when Maude Flanders said that she had to go to Bible camp to learn how to be more judgmental!!

[D1B]

Perfect timing for this thread.

Was listening to a discussion with Christopher Hitchins and Dinesh D'Souza where they discussed the various aspects of religion vs atheism. One of the questions was why atheists appear to be much more angry and derisive than believers when dealing with those at the other end of their belief system.

Essentially, those who believe in God know they cannot prove His existence, so they understand where a non believer is coming from. No proof, no God. But an atheist, who believes there is no God has a tough time understanding how someone who believes in God can believe in something they cannot prove. How can one believe in something that isn't there?

One can see why it is so exasperating for atheists. Always having to deal with someone who believes there is something out of nothing.

By the way, I don't understand Hitchens style. He was a complete turd to almost every caller. While I can understand his frustration, as discussed above, I often have to think of a saying my mother uses. "You can attract more flies with honey than vinegar".

D, this aint exasperating. It's the "something" and it's utter ridiculousness and nonsense that tough to swallow: the virgin birth, triune god, Noah's Ark, the utter bullshit that is the book of Genesis (fuck, you can flush the whole Old Testament and 99% of the new testament down the toilet) no contemporary eyewitness accounts of jesus... the list could go on for ever.

Also, typically, we could care less what you believe, we just want you to fucking keep that stupid shit to yourself and quit using it to control politics and government and quit using it to foster discrimination against gays and women.

[D1B]

Interesting perspective.

To be fair, I have run into many angry Christians - who can not believe that everyone does not believe all the proof THEY think exists that shows God is real/Jesus was real and the Son of God.

The christian god is nonsense and Jesus never existed. The son of god supposedly lived on earth for 30 some years no eyewitness at the time wrote anything about him?

[SuperJon]

There is absolutely no way that you can deny that Jesus lived. You can be skeptical about the resurrection and all of that, but just read Josephus' writings and you'll see that there was a man during that time that was a Jewish rabbi that had a large following. It's not just Christians that believe Jesus "existed." Jews and Muslims, along with Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc all believe that Jesus physically walked the earth. The only people that doubt that Jesus was real are the ones that deny any type of religion at all.

[D1B]

There is absolutely no way that you can deny that Jesus lived. You can be skeptical about the resurrection and all of that, but just read Josephus' writings and you'll see that there was a man during that time that was a Jewish rabbi that had a large following.

Yeah, but you don't believe in some Jewish Rabbi named Jesus.

Tell me more about Josephus.

[SuperJon]

My whole belief system is based around a Jewish Rabbi named Jesus. Jesus wasn't a Christian. He was a Jew. He was trained in Hebrew schools. He was raised in a Jewish home. The word "Christian" didn't come around until a few centuries after Jesus.

[dbackjon]

Interesting perspective.

To be fair, I have run into many angry Christians - who can not believe that everyone does not believe all the proof THEY think exists that shows God is real/Jesus was real and the Son of God.

On another note, one of the funniest lines I have ever heard on the Simpsons was when Maude Flanders said that she had to go to Bible camp to learn how to be more judgmental!!

[SeattleGriz]

Perfect timing for this thread.

Was listening to a discussion with Christopher Hitchins and Dinesh D'Souza where they discussed the various aspects of religion vs atheism. One of the questions was why atheists appear to be much more angry and derisive than believers when dealing with those at the other end of their belief system.

Essentially, those who believe in God know they cannot prove His existence, so they understand where a non believer is coming from. No proof, no God. But an atheist, who believes there is no God has a tough time understanding how someone who believes in God can believe in something they cannot prove. How can one believe in something that isn't there?

One can see why it is so exasperating for atheists. Always having to deal with someone who believes there is something out of nothing.

By the way, I don't understand Hitchens style. He was a complete turd to almost every caller. While I can understand his frustration, as discussed above, I often have to think of a saying my mother uses. "You can attract more flies with honey than vinegar".

D, this aint exasperating. It's the "something" and it's utter ridiculousness and nonsense that tough to swallow: the virgin birth, triune god, Noah's Ark, the utter bullshit that is the book of Genesis (****, you can flush the whole Old Testament and 99% of the new testament down the toilet) no contemporary eyewitness accounts of jesus... the list could go on for ever.

Also, typically, we could care less what you believe, we just want you to **** keep that stupid **** to yourself and quit using it to control politics and government and quit using it to foster discrimination against gays and women.

See. I understand all your points. I think the reason is, that I came to Christianity much later in life and didn't have someone else's viewpoint crammed down my throat. I got to form my idea of God and Christianity on my own.

In regards to all the Biblical stories, I have to wonder myself, for I have often said what if the recent tsunami happened 300 years ago? It would have been considered God's judgment. Hell, it actually was by most of the indigenous people, but we all know it was caused due to a massive land shift underwater.

I try my best not to pass judgment on anyone, especially when I cannot get a grasp on my foul mouth and rage at the douchebag four cars up the lane not paying attention to the green light. All the while screaming, "GO EFFER!!!" I got a board in my eye, so I certainly am not going to point out anyone elses speck.

[dbackjon]

There is absolutely no way that you can deny that Jesus lived. You can be skeptical about the resurrection and all of that, but just read Josephus' writings and you'll see that there was a man during that time that was a Jewish rabbi that had a large following. It's not just Christians that believe Jesus "existed." Jews and Muslims, along with Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc all believe that Jesus physically walked the earth. The only people that doubt that Jesus was real are the ones that deny any type of religion at all.

There is good historical evidence that Jesus existed. What relies on faith is WHO he was.

[SuperJon]

There is good historical evidence that Jesus existed. What relies on faith is WHO he was.

That was exactly my point. The entire Jewish faith disagrees with Christians on who Jesus was. They don't deny he existed though. I can buy someone saying they just don't see it in terms of Jesus being God or the son of God or raising from the dead. I can buy someone not taking that leap. I can't buy someone completely disregarding that the man lived.

[D1B]

There is good historical evidence that Jesus existed. What relies on faith is WHO he was.

That was exactly my point. The entire Jewish faith disagrees with Christians on who Jesus was. They don't deny he existed though. I can buy someone saying they just don't see it in terms of Jesus being God or the son of God or raising from the dead. I can buy someone not taking that leap. I can't buy someone completely disregarding that the man lived.

I can buy this good post. Nice one and fair enough.

[D1B]

There is absolutely no way that you can deny that Jesus lived. You can be skeptical about the resurrection and all of that, but just read Josephus' writings and you'll see that there was a man during that time that was a Jewish rabbi that had a large following. It's not just Christians that believe Jesus "existed." Jews and Muslims, along with Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc all believe that Jesus physically walked the earth. The only people that doubt that Jesus was real are the ones that deny any type of religion at all.

There is good historical evidence that Jesus existed. What relies on faith is WHO he was.

Yes. IMO, the Jesus as depicted in the bible never existed.

[SuperJon]

The greatest single cause in atheism today is Christians. I won't deny that. All I can do as a Christian is go out and discuss these things with people who have questions. It's not my job to connect every single dot for them. It's not my job to prove that I'm right. Too many Christians are caught up in the idea that they have to argue someone to Christ. That's not how it works. How the heck can someone expect a non believer to believe a love story when they go about telling it with hatred in their voice? If I was talking about a girlfriend and trying to convey how great she was but I sounded like I was pissed at her the entire time, would you believe that I truly thought she was great? No, you wouldn't.

[dbackjon]

The greatest single cause in atheism today is Christians. I won't deny that. All I can do as a Christian is go out and discuss these things with people who have questions. It's not my job to connect every single dot for them. It's not my job to prove that I'm right. Too many Christians are caught up in the idea that they have to argue someone to Christ. That's not how it works. How the heck can someone expect a non believer to believe a love story when they go about telling it with hatred in their voice? If I was talking about a girlfriend and trying to convey how great she was but I sounded like I was pissed at her the entire time, would you believe that I truly thought she was great? No, you wouldn't.

Very good point. My dad, who was a minister, firmly believed in the hymn "And We Will Show Them We are Christians by Our Love", and lived his life that way.

As a gay man, the hatred and venom that gets spewed to me by "Christians" is incredible. One reason I have been very turned off by Christianity.

[Cleets Part 2]

Essentially, those who believe in God know they cannot prove His existence, so they understand where a non believer is coming from. No proof, no God. But an atheist, who believes there is no God has a tough time understanding how someone who believes in God can believe in something they cannot prove. How can one believe in something that isn't there?

Umm... hey there Mr.
Let's be clear on a few things

Firstly: Believing in God or a god or a higher power is not what anybody is complaining about - it's Religion... there is a HUGE difference

Lots of people believe in a God of their own understanding - and do not organize and attempt to change or control any other beliefs

The issue is not God... or believing in God
The issue is Religion and the attempt to control people and politics using Religion

[SuperJon]

I think if Christians were to get back to showing the love of Christ then we could impact the world in a greater way than it's ever seen.

Speaking specifically towards you, Jon - I don't agree with your lifestyle. In my opinion, it's a sin. However, that doesn't change the way I would act toward you. I can disagree with someone and still love them and still be friends with them. I think going out and getting drunk is a sin but I'm friends with quite a few people that do that. I think sleeping around is a sin but I'm friends with quite a few people that do that. If I treat you, a gay man, different than I treated the straight man down the street, I'm not acting like a Christian should. Love your neighbor as yourself means to love them, no matter what they do, like yourself. It doesn't mean love them only if it's convenient and they agree with everything you do.

I know many of you, if not all, don't like Dr. Falwell and that's fine with me. One of the things he used to say that sticks out to me is, "Love the sinner, hate the sin." That's how I try to live my life. I treat everyone with the utmost respect that I can. I go out of the way to do the little things that show the love of Jesus. I don't do it because I think I'm better than someone. I do it because I feel that's the way I should live.

We may disagree on the issue of homosexuality, but I'm sure we can agree on other things. For example, we both like college football. That's why we're here. Why people continue to focus on the things that they disagree on as opposed to the things they do agree on is beyond me. Why people have to fight and argue and hate just because they disagree is beyond me and, in my opinion, not being a Christian at all.

[D1B]

The greatest single cause in atheism today is Christians. I won't deny that. All I can do as a Christian is go out and discuss these things with people who have questions. It's not my job to connect every single dot for them. It's not my job to prove that I'm right. Too many Christians are caught up in the idea that they have to argue someone to Christ. That's not how it works. How the heck can someone expect a non believer to believe a love story when they go about telling it with hatred in their voice? If I was talking about a girlfriend and trying to convey how great she was but I sounded like I was pissed at her the entire time, would you believe that I truly thought she was great? No, you wouldn't.

Christians are a reflection of their dogma. It's fundamentally flawed and anti-human.

[D1B]

I think if Christians were to get back to showing the love of Christ then we could impact the world in a greater way than it's ever seen.

Speaking specifically towards you, Jon - I don't agree with your lifestyle. In my opinion, it's a sin. However, that doesn't change the way I would act toward you. I can disagree with someone and still love them and still be friends with them. I think going out and getting drunk is a sin but I'm friends with quite a few people that do that. I think sleeping around is a sin but I'm friends with quite a few people that do that. If I treat you, a gay man, different than I treated the straight man down the street, I'm not acting like a Christian should. Love your neighbor as yourself means to love them, no matter what they do, like yourself. It doesn't mean love them only if it's convenient and they agree with everything you do.

I know many of you, if not all, don't like Dr. Falwell and that's fine with me. One of the things he used to say that sticks out to me is, "Love the sinner, hate the sin." That's how I try to live my life. I treat everyone with the utmost respect that I can. I go out of the way to do the little things that show the love of Jesus. I don't do it because I think I'm better than someone. I do it because I feel that's the way I should live.

We may disagree on the issue of homosexuality, but I'm sure we can agree on other things. For example, we both like college football. That's why we're here. Why people continue to focus on the things that they disagree on as opposed to the things they do agree on is beyond me. Why people have to fight and argue and hate just because they disagree is beyond me and, in my opinion, not being a Christian at all.

...see my last post...fundamentally flawed...