Let the shit hit the fan...

[89Hen]

You may not like it, but Joe is not behaving as Jesus would want. Maybe a bit of the OT, sure...but not the new and improved version.

I don't defend Cap'n and DB1...their behavior speaks for itself. But Joe's cut from a different cloth...at least that what he says. Underneath though, it seems Joe is no different. Joe wants silence on the golf course...his own version of intolerence.

He's not supposed to defend his belief? I don't see him trying to silence anyone.

[Cap'n Cat]

You may not like it, but Joe is not behaving as Jesus would want. Maybe a bit of the OT, sure...but not the new and improved version.

I don't defend Cap'n and DB1...their behavior speaks for itself. But Joe's cut from a different cloth...at least that what he says. Underneath though, it seems Joe is no different. Joe wants silence on the golf course...his own version of intolerence.

He's not supposed to defend his belief? I don't see him trying to silence anyone.

No, he's not supposed to. He is to believe us and join us immediately.

[YoUDeeMan]

No, you see it's not the argument about faith that bothers me. It's the atheist MO of calling believers ignorant and stupid.

I'd have any debate on the golf course. The reference to silence on the golf course was really about how atheists approach this discussion. You're not going to win many converts to your side by calling us all naive and ignorant. And if you're looking to impress someone and win his or her favor, you are certainly not going to do that while playing a round of golf with them and telling them why you think believers are ignorant.

C'mon, Joe. You are worried about a bunch of people calling you names and thinking you are naive? Cripes, you won't even have to deal with them afterlife (don't get all smitten about that...its bad for the soul)!

[Appaholic]

Jesus, I can't WAIT for football season to start.

At the risk of repeating myself, let me repeat myself:

JESUS, I can't WAIT for football season to start.

I'm with AZ on this one....

[YoUDeeMan]

Cluck, come on. Believers around here get called stupid and naive all the time, and then mocked by the atheist gang.

You want to have a serious discussion about a serious issue, fine. But you guys want to call people names, and then get all self-righteous when a believer responds back. Again, the shoe here is on the other foot.

There is a mountain of relevant, insightful writing by many of the world's most brilliant thinkers about this subject. You dismissed them all with a single sentece and suggested that all of them are as under-informed as the writers who use to think that the world was flat.

I do find it ironic that the atheist MO is to call believers ignorant; but when a believer points out someone who speaks about a subject matter without adequate reading is, well, ignorant, that guys gets called pompous, arrogant, and contemptuous.

Look, I got no bone to pick with you. You're a smart guy with a lot of interesting ideas on many subjects. When it comes to faith, you have your thoughts, I have mine, and why don't we just agree to respect our differences on this one issue?

Joe, you seem to have an issue with the whole idea of other people thinking that you are ignorant...and you go to great lengths to name scholars and "brilliant" people who have written so called definitive books proving the existence of God. Bully for them...but all of those writings are worthless because they come from people working to prove their point. Winners write history and in the West, Christianity is the dominant religion for now. Of course, Western populations are not growing as fast as other areas and it appears that Christianity is not growing as fast as other religions, so it will be interesting how well Christianity will fare in the far future, but that is another story.

I've read enough about Aquinas to know that I thought the man struggled to bind nature...heck, everything...to God. And not from a neutral position. God HAD to be the answer. That makes him a very flawed writer because he wasn't open to the real possibility of there not being a God.

Take away the author's bias, as any writings go, people have their own biases and will read into things what they want or what they've been taught to read. Mormans will believe their writings and claim their scholars are correct...Muslims theirs. If the Hindus are correct, then billions of others are misled. Hell, most of the "believers" of any religion haven't read original versions of their own belief system so they are all less then genuine when saying they believe because most of them don't know that the books say they should believe. Still, down to their core, by definition, although they may not say it on the golf course, people who believe in one religion think people with other faiths are ignorant...they are simply misinformed...even though they are often as misinformed about their own religion.

The only way to reconcile the differences in religions is to say that God, in all his forms, will take care of everyone in their own belief system...if they believe in their systems. That requires modern theologians to rewrite/reinterpret the writings of some of those brilliant people of the past...making the previous generations ignorant in their own way.

So don't fret. We are all ignorant in one way or another and in the area of religion, we all feel that others are ignorant because of their views. DB1 and the Cap'n just have a direct way of expressing that feeling towards others.

[Ursus A. Horribilis]

I respect your time management decision and suspect that the time I spend on this blog site fails the tests of Proverbs, but I am curious that a man of the cloth would decline an opportunity to bear witness here or anywhere.

Native, Soul Man is a very long standing member from AGS that is known as DungeonJoe. He is a real fair man and always offers a reasonable experience in discussions. He is of a very high caliber when it comes to integrity as he does not try to cover up wrongs or evade what's being posed to him. He simply tackles whatever discussion he is in with a reasoned sense and tells what could or should be according to what the good book says as he sees it.

He is also not baited into the shit throwing contests. He is fantastic at defining his argument on HIS terms and not letting his opposition define it. He is always a great read so I always made sure that I read what he posted and he has a way of massaging what I think about the whole deal and making me understand his point of view. He is a rare talent and also has a blog that he used to do (may still but I lost the link) that was a great read as well.

His sense of humor is quite advanced for a man of the cloth as well.

[Cap'n Cat]

I respect your time management decision and suspect that the time I spend on this blog site fails the tests of Proverbs, but I am curious that a man of the cloth would decline an opportunity to bear witness here or anywhere.

Native, Soul Man is a very long standing member from AGS that is known as DungeonJoe. He is a real fair man and always offers a reasonable experience in discussions. He is of a very high caliber when it comes to integrity as he does not try to cover up wrongs or evade what's being posed to him. He simply tackles whatever discussion he is in with a reasoned sense and tells what could or should be according to what the good book says as he sees it.

He is also not baited into the shit throwing contests. He is fantastic at defining his argument on HIS terms and not letting his opposition define it. He is always a great read so I always made sure that I read what he posted and he has a way of massaging what I think about the whole deal and making me understand his point of view. He is a rare talent and also has a blog that he used to do (may still but I lost the link) that was a great read as well.

His sense of humor is quite advanced for a man of the cloth as well.

Cap'n Cat is one of the few people on here who has actually met Brother Soul. We were returning from a Georgia Southern trip (Ralph and I) and we swung throught to his place in North Carolina. My Subaru was smoking and burning oil like a mothafvcka when we pulled into his church parking lot where he and his family were leading members of the congregation in a landscaping project. young terrier was there, too. Anyway, soul man walks into his church, removes the holy water font, comes outside with it and pours it on my Subaru, saying a prayer for the car and for our safe travels. Honest to Hen, that thing didn't have one puff of smoke all the way back to Michigan! D1B has it again, now, and it's still running strong.

soul man is A #1 in The Cap'ns book!

[youngterrier]

Native, Soul Man is a very long standing member from AGS that is known as DungeonJoe. He is a real fair man and always offers a reasonable experience in discussions. He is of a very high caliber when it comes to integrity as he does not try to cover up wrongs or evade what's being posed to him. He simply tackles whatever discussion he is in with a reasoned sense and tells what could or should be according to what the good book says as he sees it.

He is also not baited into the shit throwing contests. He is fantastic at defining his argument on HIS terms and not letting his opposition define it. He is always a great read so I always made sure that I read what he posted and he has a way of massaging what I think about the whole deal and making me understand his point of view. He is a rare talent and also has a blog that he used to do (may still but I lost the link) that was a great read as well.

His sense of humor is quite advanced for a man of the cloth as well.

Cap'n Cat is one of the few people on here who has actually met Brother Soul. We were returning from a Georgia Southern trip (Ralph and I) and we swung throught to his place in south Carolina. My Subaru was smoking and burning oil like a mothafvcka when we pulled into his church parking lot where he and his family were leading members of the congregation in a landscaping project. young terrier was there, too. Anyway, soul man walks into his church, removes the holy water font, comes outside with it and pours it on my Subaru, saying a prayer for the car and for our safe travels. Honest to Hen, that thing didn't have one puff of smoke all the way back to Michigan! D1B has it again, now, and it's still running strong.

soul man is A #1 in The Cap'ns book!

fixed, but i remember that...I was wearing a shirt that said "Northwestern High School" (the local high school) and Cap'n said "I live near there" (or something like that). I was probably in 4th-5th grade at the time

[dbackjon]

In conclusion, many Lutherans and Catholics in Germany, Japan and Iran (the Axis of Evil) supported Kim Jong Il's attempts to have undocumented Mexicans build an Islamic Center/Suicide Bomber clinic close to Ground Zero, which caused the 24% of Americans who believe that Barack Obama was born a Hindu in Kenya to protest the 1st Amendment, calling it the end of America as we know it. These flat-earthers have been supported by the Senate President, who also believes that someone used magic spectacles to transcribe golden tablets left in America by a zombie after he cursed the lost tribes of Afganistan into Native Americans.

OK - got it.

[Skjellyfetti]

In conclusion, many Lutherans and Catholics in Germany, Japan and Iran (the Axis of Evil) supported Kim Jong Il's attempts to have undocumented Mexicans build an Islamic Center/Suicide Bomber clinic close to Ground Zero, which caused the 24% of Americans who believe that Barack Obama was born a Hindu in Kenya to protest the 1st Amendment, calling it the end of America as we know it. These flat-earthers have been supported by the Senate President, who also believes that someone used magic spectacles to transcribe golden tablets left in America by a zombie after he cursed the lost tribes of Afganistan into Native Americans.

OK - got it.

[D1B]

Native, Soul Man is a very long standing member from AGS that is known as DungeonJoe. He is a real fair man and always offers a reasonable experience in discussions. He is of a very high caliber when it comes to integrity as he does not try to cover up wrongs or evade what's being posed to him. He simply tackles whatever discussion he is in with a reasoned sense and tells what could or should be according to what the good book says as he sees it.

He is also not baited into the shit throwing contests. He is fantastic at defining his argument on HIS terms and not letting his opposition define it. He is always a great read so I always made sure that I read what he posted and he has a way of massaging what I think about the whole deal and making me understand his point of view. He is a rare talent and also has a blog that he used to do (may still but I lost the link) that was a great read as well.

His sense of humor is quite advanced for a man of the cloth as well.

Cap'n Cat is one of the few people on here who has actually met Brother Soul. We were returning from a Georgia Southern trip (Ralph and I) and we swung throught to his place in North Carolina. My Subaru was smoking and burning oil like a mothafvcka when we pulled into his church parking lot where he and his family were leading members of the congregation in a landscaping project. young terrier was there, too. Anyway, soul man walks into his church, removes the holy water font, comes outside with it and pours it on my Subaru, saying a prayer for the car and for our safe travels. Honest to Hen, that thing didn't have one puff of smoke all the way back to Michigan! D1B has it again, now, and it's still running strong.

soul man is A #1 in The Cap'ns book!

Word. Dungeon Joe is top shit. Knows his Jesus too. I listen to him and respect what he has to say.

[D1B]

Joltin Joes asshole after this thread:



Epic asswhumpin indeed.

[JoltinJoe]

If the "winner" in this thread are the ones who are most obnoxious and overbearing, then I suffered "another" ass whuppin.

But on substance, you've lost again.

[JoltinJoe]

Cluck, come on. Believers around here get called stupid and naive all the time, and then mocked by the atheist gang.

You want to have a serious discussion about a serious issue, fine. But you guys want to call people names, and then get all self-righteous when a believer responds back. Again, the shoe here is on the other foot.

There is a mountain of relevant, insightful writing by many of the world's most brilliant thinkers about this subject. You dismissed them all with a single sentece and suggested that all of them are as under-informed as the writers who use to think that the world was flat.

I do find it ironic that the atheist MO is to call believers ignorant; but when a believer points out someone who speaks about a subject matter without adequate reading is, well, ignorant, that guys gets called pompous, arrogant, and contemptuous.

Look, I got no bone to pick with you. You're a smart guy with a lot of interesting ideas on many subjects. When it comes to faith, you have your thoughts, I have mine, and why don't we just agree to respect our differences on this one issue?

Joe, you seem to have an issue with the whole idea of other people thinking that you are ignorant...and you go to great lengths to name scholars and "brilliant" people who have written so called definitive books proving the existence of God. Bully for them...but all of those writings are worthless because they come from people working to prove their point. Winners write history and in the West, Christianity is the dominant religion for now. Of course, Western populations are not growing as fast as other areas and it appears that Christianity is not growing as fast as other religions, so it will be interesting how well Christianity will fare in the far future, but that is another story.

I've read enough about Aquinas to know that I thought the man struggled to bind nature...heck, everything...to God. And not from a neutral position. God HAD to be the answer. That makes him a very flawed writer because he wasn't open to the real possibility of there not being a God.

Take away the author's bias, as any writings go, people have their own biases and will read into things what they want or what they've been taught to read. Mormans will believe their writings and claim their scholars are correct...Muslims theirs. If the Hindus are correct, then billions of others are misled. Hell, most of the "believers" of any religion haven't read original versions of their own belief system so they are all less then genuine when saying they believe because most of them don't know that the books say they should believe. Still, down to their core, by definition, although they may not say it on the golf course, people who believe in one religion think people with other faiths are ignorant...they are simply misinformed...even though they are often as misinformed about their own religion.

The only way to reconcile the differences in religions is to say that God, in all his forms, will take care of everyone in their own belief system...if they believe in their systems. That requires modern theologians to rewrite/reinterpret the writings of some of those brilliant people of the past...making the previous generations ignorant in their own way.

So don't fret. We are all ignorant in one way or another and in the area of religion, we all feel that others are ignorant because of their views. DB1 and the Cap'n just have a direct way of expressing that feeling towards others.

Cluck, Aquinas is a staple of metaphysics and theology. He is taught everywhere, not just in Catholic seminaries but by the philosophy and theology departments in all the private and public universities too. He is considered a giant by Catholics and non-Catholics alike. Indeed the whole field of Thomism takes its name from Aquinas.

Your efforts to pigeon-hole him as some type of Catholic curiosity are unavailing. In fact, perhaps Aquinas's most significant contributions was, at a time when many philosophers and theologians argued that truth was to be found in Church texts alone, Aquinas insisted that truth could be found in the writings of the Greeks, Muslims, Jews, etc. His influence in this regard was vital to the growth and expansion of metaphysics. Aquinas also defended the use of reason as a tool of metaphysics, which directly challenged the theological notion that reason, to the extent it conflicted with the perceived word of God, was invalid. Thus, Aquinas lifted theology and philosophy out of its more narrow frames of references up to that time, and opened the door for more free inquiry and discussion.

And his five proofs for the existence of God remains the starting point for any serious and meaningful discussion between atheist and believer, since Aquinas rejects both the starting positions of the theist that the existence of God is obvious and self-evident ("don't you see God is everywhere") and of the atheist that God is imperceptible and thus not real. That so many atheists have not read Aquinas is patently obvious when they start discussing the issue.

[houndawg]

Haven't read much Shakespeare either, and just enough Ayn Rand to know that I'd rather sort bobcats in a burning hayloft.

[JoltinJoe]

I saw this article a while back.

Whenever I read Dawkins or Hitchens's (brief) discussions of Aquinas, it seems pretty obvious to me either: (i) they have not read Aquinas; (ii) they don't understand Aquinas; or (iii) they are intentionally distorting Aquinas.

http://www.thegovmonitor.com/world_news ... 26911.html

[kalm]

Ayn Rand was an devout atheist too.

[D1B]

I saw this article a while back.

Whenever I read Dawkins or Hitchens's (brief) discussions of Aquinas, it seems pretty obvious to me either: (i) they have not read Aquinas; (ii) they don't understand Aquinas; or (iii) they are intentionally distorting Aquinas.

http://www.thegovmonitor.com/world_news ... 26911.html

And now for the rest of the story. Author is:

1. A conk
2. A hardcore catholic and
3. Edward Feser is Associate Professor of Philosophy at Pasadena City College in Pasadena, California.

Nice one Dodger!

[D1B]

If the "winner" in this thread are the ones who are most obnoxious and overbearing, then I suffered "another" ass whuppin.

But on substance, you've lost again.

What were those churches, Dodger?

[wkuhillhound]

Safe to say he wasn't acting like a Christ-follower.

Most Christians don't.

AMEN!

[D1B]

Nothing more needs to be said.