Charlottesville riots

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Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by dbackjon »

GannonFan wrote:Looks like Taney is the next to go. The recast statue that was in Baltimore was taken down overnight, and there's a push to oust the original statue from the statehouse in Annapolis. Of course, while Taney's Dred Scott decision was abominable, he never was a Confederate and remain serving in the US government through the Civil War until his death. Certainly have to question if the guy deserves a statue (he was from Maryland, hence why it's there, and he was Chief Justice for quite some time in the 1800's, appointed by Andrew Jackson, which is likely another mark against him). Another oversight in our history education as the media reports his as a Confederate statue. But details. :coffee:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/md ... 2#comments
I agree with you on this.

Confederate Statues honor traitors to the US. Taney wrote some bad rulings, but he did free the slaves he inherited from his father, was never a slave owner, and rejected the Confederacy.





(Note, I got into a heated exchange with someone on this very subject on DU) - I argued that the statue should remain.
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Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by dbackjon »

AZGrizFan wrote:
Chizzang wrote:
:ohno:

When ANTIF and BLM kills a few million people lets circle back

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ANTIFA and BLM are WAAAY ahead of American Nazis in body and damage count. Their level of violence makes the Nazis in this country look like amateurs.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by Bisonfanatical »

dbackjon wrote:
Bisonfanatical wrote:Traitors, there is that nonsensical word again.
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If people that were in open rebellion against the United States doesn't meet your definition of traitors, then nothing does
Secession from the union, I believe it was something like 11 states "formerly" from the USA with their own government, and military.
.
What does secession mean to you?
.
To them, as allowed for in the constitution, it meant they were no longer a part of this country.
.
By the time Lincoln was sworn in they had already left. No rebellion, just gone.
Paint this any way you want ... doesn't change any thing.
.
They had a congress and president.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by Bisonfanatical »

dbackjon wrote:
Bisonfanatical wrote:There was no more "United" States of America, Congress disbanded, never to convene again.
The USA didn't exist.
.
It was more like a unilateral decision by the sitting president (of a broken disbanded country).
.
The war was over a staged/orchestrated battle of Fort Sumter, not over slavesImage
.
The south succeeded from the union because the north controlled congress, the Senate, and now the presidency.
.
Freeing the slaves was a convenient way to bankrupt the south, but it was an after thought, not the cause.
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Good god you are a **** idiot.

Every statement is false.

What, are you a 18th century Alex Jones?
So your saying that Ft Sumter was NOT the reason the war started?

Your saying the south did not have their own president and Congress and Army?

And what part of Ft Sumter had anything to do with the slaves?

I will wait for your knowledge base to kick in.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by dbackjon »

Bisonfanatical wrote:
dbackjon wrote:

Good god you are a **** idiot.

Every statement is false.

What, are you a 18th century Alex Jones?
So your saying that Ft Sumter was NOT the reason the war started?

Your saying the south did not have their own president and Congress and Army?

And what part of Ft Sumter had anything to do with the slaves?

I will wait for your knowledge base to kick in.
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They did - in open rebellion. The South fired on Ft. Sumter AFTER they had seceded. OVER Slavery.

Obviously someone got an F in history. Or maybe they don't teach it in Confederate stronghold of North Dakota
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Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by JohnStOnge »

I don't think that the South firing on Fort Sumter was the reason for the war. I think the reason for the war is that the Union did not want to let the South go. There was going to be an invasion whether Fort Sumter was fired upon or not.
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Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by Jjoey52 »

Agree with John, at that point it was not if but when and where.


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Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by CID1990 »

JohnStOnge wrote:I don't think that the South firing on Fort Sumter was the reason for the war. I think the reason for the war is that the Union did not want to let the South go. There was going to be an invasion whether Fort Sumter was fired upon or not.
Correct

Ft Sumter was a confederate state firing on a federal fort after an eviction notice and after secession

In fact, Sumter was fired on because Lincoln decided to resupply Maj Anderson's garrison after being told that Re supplying it would be considered an act of war.

Ultimately it was the powder keg that both sides wanted, but they would have found another - the secession had been a peaceful departure up to that point
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Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by houndawg »

89Hen wrote:
houndawg wrote:
Who threw the first punch is irrelevant, John. These turds are who our ancestors joined up to fight against. Your limp-wristed sniveling apologist act is as embarrasing as Alpo's half-witted gibberish.
Neato. So next time I see somebody with whom I disagree, I can punch them in the face since it's irrelevant.

The white supremacists are repugnant and their speech is hateful. You still can't assault them.
Root and branch. :coffee:

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by Bisonfanatical »

dbackjon wrote:
Bisonfanatical wrote:So your saying that Ft Sumter was NOT the reason the war started?

Your saying the south did not have their own president and Congress and Army?

And what part of Ft Sumter had anything to do with the slaves?

I will wait for your knowledge base to kick in.
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They did - in open rebellion. The South fired on Ft. Sumter AFTER they had seceded. OVER Slavery.

Obviously someone got an F in history. Or maybe they don't teach it in Confederate stronghold of North Dakota
You said:

The South fired on Ft. Sumter AFTER they had seceded. OVER Slavery.

Question:

Did they fire on Ft Sumter over slavery?

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Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by houndawg »

CID1990 wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:I don't think that the South firing on Fort Sumter was the reason for the war. I think the reason for the war is that the Union did not want to let the South go. There was going to be an invasion whether Fort Sumter was fired upon or not.


Ft Sumter was a confederate state firing on a federal fort after an eviction notice and after secession

In fact, Sumter was fired on because Lincoln decided to resupply Maj Anderson's garrison after being told that Re supplying it would be considered an act of war.

Ultimately it was the powder keg that both sides wanted, but they would have found another - the secession had been a peaceful departure up to that point
I'm willing to revisit a peaceful departure.
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Re: RE: Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by Bisonfanatical »

JohnStOnge wrote:I don't think that the South firing on Fort Sumter was the reason for the war. I think the reason for the war is that the Union did not want to let the South go. There was going to be an invasion whether Fort Sumter was fired upon or not.
History recorded that the war started over Ft Sumter, that is a fact.

You could be right, Maybe there would have been an invasion anyway? Possible, we don't know.

There was a difference in opinion about slavery between the north and the south.

But my point remains that history records that the WAR started over Ft Sumter.

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Re: RE: Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by Bisonfanatical »

Jjoey52 wrote:Agree with John, at that point it was not if but when and where.


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Possible,
But pure speculation.
The war started over Ft Sumter and I have never read where that battle had anything to do with slaves.
But that battle surely started the war.
And that is my point.

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Re: RE: Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by Bisonfanatical »

CID1990 wrote:
JohnStOnge wrote:I don't think that the South firing on Fort Sumter was the reason for the war. I think the reason for the war is that the Union did not want to let the South go. There was going to be an invasion whether Fort Sumter was fired upon or not.
Correct

Ft Sumter was a confederate state firing on a federal fort after an eviction notice and after secession

In fact, Sumter was fired on because Lincoln decided to resupply Maj Anderson's garrison after being told that Re supplying it would be considered an act of war.

Ultimately it was the powder keg that both sides wanted, but they would have found another - the secession had been a peaceful departure up to that point
I agree, and history agrees.

We will never know any other possibility, because this intentional act by Lincoln started the war.
Lincoln just wanted to reunite the nation.

Slavery became an issue, and was an underlying current, but the war started over Ft Sumter, not the slaves. In any body's text book.

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Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by Skjellyfetti »

Bisonfanatical wrote:
Jjoey52 wrote:Agree with John, at that point it was not if but when and where.


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Possible,
But pure speculation.
The war started over Ft Sumter and I have never read where that battle had anything to do with slaves.
But that battle surely started the war.
And that is my point.

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Fort Sumter was the "first shot" but, it didn't happen in a vacuum. "Any body's text book" chapter on the Civil War doesn't start with Ft. Sumter.
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Re: RE: Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by Bisonfanatical »

Skjellyfetti wrote:
Bisonfanatical wrote:Possible,
But pure speculation.
The war started over Ft Sumter and I have never read where that battle had anything to do with slaves.
But that battle surely started the war.
And that is my point.

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Fort Sumter was the "first shot" but, it didn't happen in a vacuum. "Any body's text book" chapter on the Civil War doesn't start with Ft. Sumter.
The winners write their history their way, but the war started at Ft Sumter, over illegal occupation of the fort. Not slaves.

Regardless of other underlying currents.

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Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by AZGrizFan »

houndawg wrote:
89Hen wrote: Neato. So next time I see somebody with whom I disagree, I can punch them in the face since it's irrelevant.

The white supremacists are repugnant and their speech is hateful. You still can't assault them.
Root and branch. :coffee:

We settled this shit 70 years ago. Being proud of being white is fine. Wearing a kkk robe or waving a swastika flag isn't about being proud of being White, it's about something else entirely and everyone knows that.
No, it's not. Not even remotely. If a white person in any way, shape or form shows or intimates that they're proud of being white they are immediately labeled a racist. It does not matter WHAT form that "pride" takes.
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Re: RE: Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by ALPHAGRIZ1 »

AZGrizFan wrote:
houndawg wrote:
Root and branch. :coffee:

We settled this shit 70 years ago. Being proud of being white is fine. Wearing a kkk robe or waving a swastika flag isn't about being proud of being White, it's about something else entirely and everyone knows that.
No, it's not. Not even remotely. If a white person in any way, shape or form shows or intimates that they're proud of being white they are immediately labeled a racist. It does not matter WHAT form that "pride" takes.
Yep

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Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by Jjoey52 »

AZGrizFan wrote:
houndawg wrote:
Root and branch. :coffee:

We settled this **** 70 years ago. Being proud of being white is fine. Wearing a kkk robe or waving a swastika flag isn't about being proud of being White, it's about something else entirely and everyone knows that.
No, it's not. Not even remotely. If a white person in any way, shape or form shows or intimates that they're proud of being white they are immediately labeled a racist. It does not matter WHAT form that "pride" takes.

Regrettably, I have to agree.


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Re: RE: Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by houndawg »

Bisonfanatical wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
Correct

Ft Sumter was a confederate state firing on a federal fort after an eviction notice and after secession

In fact, Sumter was fired on because Lincoln decided to resupply Maj Anderson's garrison after being told that Re supplying it would be considered an act of war.

Ultimately it was the powder keg that both sides wanted, but they would have found another - the secession had been a peaceful departure up to that point
I agree, and history agrees.

We will never know any other possibility, because this intentional act by Lincoln started the war.
Lincoln just wanted to reunite the nation.

Slavery became an issue, and was an underlying current, but the war started over Ft Sumter, not the slaves. In any body's text book.

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Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by houndawg »

AZGrizFan wrote:
houndawg wrote:
Root and branch. :coffee:

We settled this **** 70 years ago. Being proud of being white is fine. Wearing a kkk robe or waving a swastika flag isn't about being proud of being White, it's about something else entirely and everyone knows that.
No, it's not. Not even remotely. If a white person in any way, shape or form shows or intimates that they're proud of being white they are immediately labeled a racist. It does not matter WHAT form that "pride" takes.
Now you're channeling tman at his drama queeniest. The racist label comes from the klan robes and the Nazi salute. :coffee:
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Charlottesville riots

Post by CID1990 »

Bisonfanatical wrote:
CID1990 wrote:
Correct

Ft Sumter was a confederate state firing on a federal fort after an eviction notice and after secession

In fact, Sumter was fired on because Lincoln decided to resupply Maj Anderson's garrison after being told that Re supplying it would be considered an act of war.

Ultimately it was the powder keg that both sides wanted, but they would have found another - the secession had been a peaceful departure up to that point
I agree, and history agrees.

We will never know any other possibility, because this intentional act by Lincoln started the war.
Lincoln just wanted to reunite the nation.

Slavery became an issue, and was an underlying current, but the war started over Ft Sumter, not the slaves. In any body's text book.

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Well that's a bit of a "nuanced" view (klam's likes that)

But I've said many times on this forum - and since you are relatively new - I'll pull a JSO and repeat myself

Bruce Catton is one of my favorite Civil War historians because he had a singular gift of brevity and summary-

He said that the war had many causes, but if those, there was only one that if it had not existed, the war would not have happened - and that was slavery.

We got to the point of Fort Sumter because the South seceded

The South seceded because it felt an existential threat to its economy- propagated by economic policies generated in the largely abolitionist political class in northern states

The Southern economy, to a large degree, depended on cash crops made wildly profitable with slave labor.

The politics of Southern states were absolutely ruled by the planter class - much in the same way our own modern politics are ruled by the corporate class

The Civil War absolutely, at its core, could not have happened in the absence of chattel slavery

Every male ancestor of mine who was of fighting age during the war was a soldier in the confederacy. One buried his own brother at Seven Pines. Another was captured at Gettysburg and spent the rest of the war in point lookout MD and walked home to NC after he was paroled in 1865. I cart bookcases of books about the war all over the world, and I visit battlegrounds multiple times and explore every corner of them. I know just about everything there is to know about Lee and Jackson, and also Grant and Sherman.

If there is anyone who ought to be unreconstructed, it is me. But that war was about slavery, and it was prosecuted by men who profited from it. Lincoln's motivation was not about slavery at first- that much is correct - But that obscures the fact that the South most certainly WAS fighting for the preservation of the institutution

I'm an admirer of both Lee and Jackson and I want to see them memorialized for who they really were. But a lot of that is being obscured by the cause for which they ultimately fought

Lee and Jackson are Christ figures in the South- that is an artifact of the Lost Cause - But also a tacit admission that they were noble warriors for a flawed country. I think in that vein they have one last sacrifice to make
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Re: RE: Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by Bisonfanatical »

AZGrizFan wrote:
houndawg wrote:
Root and branch. :coffee:

We settled this **** 70 years ago. Being proud of being white is fine. Wearing a kkk robe or waving a swastika flag isn't about being proud of being White, it's about something else entirely and everyone knows that.
No, it's not. Not even remotely. If a white person in any way, shape or form shows or intimates that they're proud of being white they are immediately labeled a racist. It does not matter WHAT form that "pride" takes.
This is the "fact" of the whole matter

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by Bisonfanatical »

houndawg wrote:
Bisonfanatical wrote:I agree, and history agrees.

We will never know any other possibility, because this intentional act by Lincoln started the war.
Lincoln just wanted to reunite the nation.

Slavery became an issue, and was an underlying current, but the war started over Ft Sumter, not the slaves. In any body's text book.

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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Charlottesville riots

Post by Bisonfanatical »

CID1990 wrote:
Bisonfanatical wrote:I agree, and history agrees.

We will never know any other possibility, because this intentional act by Lincoln started the war.
Lincoln just wanted to reunite the nation.

Slavery became an issue, and was an underlying current, but the war started over Ft Sumter, not the slaves. In any body's text book.

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Well that's a bit of a "nuanced" view (klam's likes that)

But I've said many times on this forum - and since you are relatively new - I'll pull a JSO and repeat myself

Bruce Catton is one of my favorite Civil War historians because he had a singular gift of brevity and summary-

He said that the war had many causes, but if those, there was only one that if it had not existed, the war would not have happened - and that was slavery.

We got to the point of Fort Sumter because the South seceded

The South seceded because it felt an existential threat to its economy- propagated by economic policies generated in the largely abolitionist political class in northern states

The Southern economy, to a large degree, depended on cash crops made wildly profitable with slave labor.

The politics of Southern states were absolutely ruled by the planter class - much in the same way our own modern politics are ruled by the corporate class

The Civil War absolutely, at its core, could not have happened in the absence of chattel slavery

Every male ancestor of mine who was of fighting age during the war was a soldier in the confederacy. One buried his own brother at Seven Pines. Another was captured at Gettysburg and spent the rest of the war in point lookout MD and walked home to NC after he was paroled in 1865. I cart bookcases of books about the war all over the world, and I visit battlegrounds multiple times and explore every corner of them. I know just about everything there is to know about Lee and Jackson, and also Grant and Sherman.

If there is anyone who ought to be unreconstructed, it is me. But that war was about slavery, and it was prosecuted by men who profited from it. Lincoln's motivation was not about slavery at first- that much is correct - But that obscures the fact that the South most certainly WAS fighting for the preservation of the institutution

I'm an admirer of both Lee and Jackson and I want to see them memorialized for who they really were. But a lot of that is being obscured by the cause for which they ultimately fought

Lee and Jackson are Christmas figures in the South- that is an artifact of the Lost Cause - But also a tacit admission that they were noble warriors for a flawed country. I think in that vein they have one last sacrifice to make
Yes, the war was not "about" slavery, but slavery was a major underlying current.

I enjoyed reading your post. It was very informative. A rare commodity around here.

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